Feds tackle tablesaw safety - Higher prices are on the way?

[Ken Nagrod]

JMB,

Sawstop has an override for things like wet wood or when you choose not to use the built-in technology for whatever reason.  It's a keyed override switch.

 

[jmbfestool]

JMB,

Sawstop has an override for things like wet wood or when you choose not to use the built-in technology for whatever reason.  It's a keyed override switch.

I thought it had just couldnt be bothered to look it up [tongue] ! Well how wet can the wood b would you need to test the wood before you could send it through? Would a small stable in the wood set it off?  Often sheet material could have a small staple stock on the ends.  I would be to scared and would say every wood I sent through the saw is to wet  just incase it set the thing off so with me it would never be turned on so would be useless!   Even if it was dry I would go umm naa its got a rain drop on it turned the sawstop of just incase lol  [tongue] [tongue]

JMB

 

[jmbfestool]

JMB, I believe the newest idea gaining traction is a version that just drops the saw blade down below the table top, so you won't have any damage.

Hi Harry,

Good to see you back on here.

John

I agree, good to see you here again.

Sorry Brice I didnt see you post just above your quote to harry_

Well when they bring that out just the blade dropping I would be happy to own one as that wouldn't cause damage to my tool so wouldn't affect the way I work and so I wouldnt mind leaving the thing turned on! Maybe make me jump if something did trigger the saw and it dropped down but I dont mind that. keeps my heart going

|JMB

 

[Ken Nagrod]

JMB, the staples in wood would not set it off.  It's capacitive sensing like your mouse pad on your Mac.  If you're working with pressure treated material, turn it off.  If it's green wood that has a visibly high moisture content, turn it off.  If you're really unsure, let an expert cut it for you and sit off on the side with a glass of iced tea and a magazine, in your bright red heated jacket.  [tongue]

 

[jmbfestool]

JMB, the staples in wood would not set it off.  It's capacitive sensing like your mouse pad on your Mac.  If you're working with pressure treated material, turn it off.  If it's green wood that has a visibly high moisture content, turn it off.  If you're really unsure, let an expert cut it for you and sit off on the side with a glass of iced tea and a magazine, in your bright red heated jacket.  [tongue]

[tongue] [tongue] [tongue] [tongue] [tongue] [tongue]

 

[Ken Nagrod]

I forgot that when you activate the bypass mode (turn off the safety feature) the warning/info lights on the saw's control panel will tell you if the material you are cutting is conductive enough to trip the safety mechanism when engaged.  Here's the info concerning the most popular questions:

http://www.sawstop.com/howitworks/how_faq.php

 

[GruntSgt]

I have a mixed opinion here.

Personally, I think the SawStop tech is a good thing, and I can't imagine that I would ever want to use a table saw without it considering the [lack-of-]safety records they have built up and how well that technology obviously works (note that I've never used *any* table saw and don't see the need for one at all, but what research I've done on the technology tells me that if I ever did have reason to consider the purchase of a table saw, I'd only buy one of these).

On the other hand, I think the government needs to butt out and stop spending our money to protect us from things we have no interest in anyway.

How many tax dollars spent on "protecting" us from woodworking tools come from non-woodworkers, how many tax dollars spent on "protecting" us from spoiled milk come from people who can't consume dairy products...

This is not the government's job; never should have been, still shouldn't be.

Amen!

 

[billg71]

You have to understand the main motivation behind these complaints. It's not the safety issue or even the cost issue, even though these things are of a definite concern. It's the being forced to use the technology issue that really irks many Americans.

More than any country in the world, Americans take their freedoms and their rights more seriously than anybody else. And, when someone comes along, be it government, an individual trying to get their product mandated like Steven Gass or even the insurance industry forcing companies to comply, Americans get really upset. This "being forced to do something" hatred is ingrained in almost every American and not something that can easily be reasoned away.

Amen, brother, you hit the nail slap on the head! It's not like we're backwards or stupid or unaware of consequences, we just plain don't like being told what we ought to do for "our own good". I have to disagree with you on one point, it's not a hatred of "being forced to do something", it's a(IMO, emotionally healthy) reaction to someone pointing a gun at our head(i.e., making a law) to force us to do what we most likely would do anyway if left alone to make our own decisions. Then we buck up, scream, holler and generally raise Hell. Some of us will figure out a way around the new Law, never mind that it takes more effort and costs more than complying... The majority of us will realize it's something we'd do anyway and go along, but we'll resent being forced to do it.

The end result is that the lawmaking authority loses credibility since it wasted a lot of time passing a law to make us do what anyone with a modicum of common sense would do anyway. And now we have to pay the price of enforcing that law, the investigations, the prosecutions, the incarcerations, the appeals, et cetera, ad nauseum, instead of letting the idiots who didn't care enough to exercise that common sense suffer the consequences of their actions at their own expense.

Climbing down off the soapbox,

Bill

 

[Ken Nagrod]

You have to understand the main motivation behind these complaints. It's not the safety issue or even the cost issue, even though these things are of a definite concern. It's the being forced to use the technology issue that really irks many Americans.

More than any country in the world, Americans take their freedoms and their rights more seriously than anybody else. And, when someone comes along, be it government, an individual trying to get their product mandated like Steven Gass or even the insurance industry forcing companies to comply, Americans get really upset. This "being forced to do something" hatred is ingrained in almost every American and not something that can easily be reasoned away.

Amen, brother, you hit the nail slap on the head! It's not like we're backwards or stupid or unaware of consequences, we just plain don't like being told what we ought to do for "our own good". I have to disagree with you on one point, it's not a hatred of "being forced to do something", it's a(IMO, emotionally healthy) reaction to someone pointing a gun at our head(i.e., making a law) to force us to do what we most likely would do anyway if left alone to make our own decisions. Then we buck up, scream, holler and generally raise Hell. Some of us will figure out a way around the new Law, never mind that it takes more effort and costs more than complying... The majority of us will realize it's something we'd do anyway and go along, but we'll resent being forced to do it.

The end result is that the lawmaking authority loses credibility since it wasted a lot of time passing a law to make us do what anyone with a modicum of common sense would do anyway. And now we have to pay the price of enforcing that law, the investigations, the prosecutions, the incarcerations, the appeals, et cetera, ad nauseum, instead of letting the idiots who didn't care enough to exercise that common sense suffer the consequences of their actions at their own expense.

Climbing down off the soapbox,

Bill

Bill, I thought that was a good post.  Forgetting about everything like costs and such that lead up to the change and new law per se, remember that (at least on SawStop's models) if you don't like the feature, turn the key and shut it off.  At least in that regard you have a choice.  Now it's a whole 'nother story when you're having employees use it and you have to deal with OSHA, the insurance company and state or federal laws.  They may force you to make use of the feature.

 

[upscale]

The end result is that the lawmaking authority loses credibility since it wasted a lot of time passing a law to make us do what anyone with a modicum of common sense would do anyway.

The mandating of many safety issues *is* something I approve of. But, then I'm Canadian and haven't been raised in an American 'absolute right to choose' atmosphere. Take seat belts for example. I approved of their being mandated from the get go. And, I have the picture to prove that a seat belt saved my life. In the case of myself, I'd use one without any kind of law enforcing me to do so because I consider a seat belt a completely logical thing.

One thing I do realize is that there's always going to be that segment of the population who won't use a safety device 'just because'. And in almost every circumstance, an injury has some affect, be it emotionally or financially on others besides themselves. For that reason, I generally have to approve of mandated safety laws. For the most part, they just makes sense to me.

 

[Ken Nagrod]

New article from Fine Woodworking Magazine

Table Saw Safety -  Feds Step It Up

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

Whatever.

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Darcy,

Federal regulations will require users of older (pre-safety) design table saws to wear Medieval style protective armored suits, with a grounding cable attached to a suitable earth rod installed in the middle of the shop floor for easy manuevering all around and a protective orange cover over the exposed rod, with a label stating that it's made of materials found to be unsafe in the state of California, so you're ok.

 

[jtwood]

I'm waiting for delivery on a new Powermatic PM2000 to replace my aging, underpowered Sears hybrid.  I could have bought the SawStop, but am very happy with the addition of usable riving knives to the Powermatic, which has other features I prefer.  Especially the built-in wheels for my 1 1/2 car garage.

By the way, the last two bad cuts (no missing digits, just lots of blood) have been from hand saws.  I am much more safety-conscious with my power tools than I am with hand tools.  Not overly bright, I know, but that's how I am.

If the SawStop system is made mandatory, that would be okay, but I'm not going to push for it.  I pretty much agree with the old English theory of government, which said that the primary functions of government should be to:  1.  Deliver the mail  and  2.  Defend the coastline.  Anything else is pretty much overkill.

 

[JimB1]

This seems to be a sore spot on every woodworking board I've been on.

My thought is this, most if not all of the cases I've read around this issue where someone got hurt, they weren't following safety procedures or the existing safety devices were removed or disabled.

I somehow doubt that someone who uses a $200 tablesaw and removes the guards is going to have any issues with hitting a button to turn off a SawStop mechanism to keep from having to buy a new blade or have down time because they need to change a cartridge. I also have no problem envisioning that they will use the blade over that the SawStop triggered against and take the chance of weakened blades shattering or carbide tips flying off at speed.

Even the good woodworkers that have had bad things happen usually will usually admit that they did something they shouldn't have through inattention or while rushed. I don't think I've every heard a case where the tablesaw jumped up an attacked someone (maybe though, they are pretty heavy tools). The blade is stationary, people move. Train them how to not move body parts near the blade or put something like a blade guard between them and the blade and we have no issues. I like euro saws with the sliding table, makes good sense to me.

It's always interesting to see numbers though. If they are saying 2 a day are injured, how many a day are using them? 250,000? What percentage of the whole are we talking about? If we were talking about stopping 1 person in 10 from being hurt by adding $100 to a saw, it makes a lot more sense then 1 person in 1,000,000 and adding $500 to the price of a saw.

And I know that sounds harsh but the reality is that if we could make a car that guaranteed no accidents or injuries but it would cost a 5 million dollars a car, no one would have one. Instead we buy cars that people are killed daily in them but they are affordable for most. We make those sorts of decisions all the time based on the odds that we won't be the injured ones.

That said SawStop makes a good product but I think that Stephen Gass is not a good spokesperson to be pushing this as he is. He stands to gain billions if it is government mandated. Anyone that has that much to gain is inherently biased and will say whatever he needs to.

JMHO
-Jim

 

[GhostFist]

in regards to the safety off feature on the sawstop, it's a bit of a pain to do. you have to hold the key in a certain position for a few seconds before lights tell you the feature has been deactivated. You can then run the saw without safety but it will be reactivated once you turn the saw off. this actually is a pain in the arse if you have to cut a lot of wet wood at different widths. Staples in the wood will also trip the safety, BANG NEW BLADE NEW BRAKE.

 

[VictorL]

Yes, this is good OPTION, but not mandatory feature.
Every year around 40,000 people dying in car crashes in the USA alone. Drank driving is more common than circular saw injuries. 
These injuries include table saws, chop saws, miter saws, sliding saws and handheld circular saws. I think all other power tool such band saws, routers, shapers and other cutting machines falling under this category as well.  Bottle or two (or more) of beer is not un-common on working place or at the lunch break.  That's much more dangerous, than any other factors.
The biggest question is who will win with this new law? End users? Just a little bit.
The winners are:
Stephen Gass (he'll get big chunk of licensing fees)
Some lawyers. (they will try to claim all injuries for the last 10 years, when technology was patented and offered to the public. )
China. It wins several times. China will built new saws only for USA, new safety mechanisms for retrofitting existing saws. etc. The keywords are only for USA. 
All other countries. They don't have to pay extra for this safety mechanism, plus for the new saws, saw blades and cartridges. 
Ikea and such. Small companies and contractors must spread extra cost to their customers. But Ikea and such build their disposable stuff outside USA, mostly in China.
We won't see many high quality excellent European saws here anymore. Felder and Laguna have representation in the USA, but will they change their models just for USA market?  It will be hard to bring new players into US soil. So there will be less competition among saw builders and we'll see the same cheap outdated crap for high price.
Once it will become the standard for table saws, Stephen Gass will push this technology to other segments of circular saws and other power tools.
One category of woodworkers will have huge advantage: some hobbyists and single man shops. They could buy excellent professional quality "old" stile saws for relatively modest price within first few years. Two men shops and up must update their equipment.
If person ignores signs "No swimming", "No guards on duty", and get drown. Why city has to pay monetary compensation? There must be personal responsibility for swimming, smoking, drinking hot coffee, cutting your fingers, putting your cat in microwave, and other things....
That's too sad.....

 

[Alan m]

well thought out post there victor l

 

[justinmcf]

thats a great post victor.

i dont agree with all of it, but i understand your point of view.

i tend to agree with the seat belts for cars point of view, yes it was a pita for the car manufacturers when seat belts were made mandatory, but they got over it pretty quickly.
i reckon sawstop is an awesome product and look forward to it spreading through all wood working machines rapidly.
i dont care who makes money from it, i want the product as cheap as possible, now.

justin.

 

[Deke]

I hate when threads start to go down these roads.  This is exactly why I do not frequent most woodworking websites. 

Bumped for effect.