Festool Contractors

[Matthew Schenker]

Good Morning,
We have long had designations in this forum for Festool Employees and Festool Dealers.  These appear below people's names, so members can be aware when someone holds a position with the company that affects their viewpoints or indicates a different level of expertise and knowledge.

Festool also employs a number of contractors, and some of them are members of this forum.  These are people who currently, or occasionally, work for Festool on a paid, project-by-project basis.  Because of their status with the company, and their level of knowledge, they should be given more visibility, so members can easily identify them.

Therefore, I will soon be placing the designation Festool Contractor below the names of people who work for Festool as paid contractors.  I'm working with Christian Oltzscher to make sure I know who the contractors are.  In the meantime, if you are a Festool contractor, please feel free to let me know so I don't leave you out!

Stay in touch,
Matthew

 

[Jerry Work]

Hi Matthew,

Please publish the private email I sent to you this morning on this topic and your reply.  I think they will help frame the issue. 

I certainly do not want anyone on this forum to think that my active participation in this forum is in any way influenced or "paid for" by Festool just because on occasion in the past I have been paid in tools and/or cash to write manuals for distribution through their web site.  I design and hand craft fine furniture for a living, I don't do "contract" work for a living.  My active participation in this forum and my willingness to periodically write for Festool and other manufacturers whom I believe supply best of breed products is simply because I think it important for people interested in woodworking to learn how they can build faster, safer and to a higher quality standard.  I also think very highly of the whole Festool organization and everyone whom I have met that works for Festool but that is not why I write or participate in forums like this either.

If you want to identify me further than I am already identified through my own postings, use something more accurate like "Professional Furniture Maker who also periodically gets paid by Festool and others to write manuals and other marketing materials for them".  Or, color my name brown and then somewhere explain what brown means.  I for one do not think the tag "Festool Contractor" appropriately captures the truth of the situation and could be very misleading for some.

Jerry

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Jerry,
I understand your concern, but this move is in response to a mountain of requests for more transparency on this forum.  It's not meant to be a label that totally describes everything about you, and I am sure most people understand that you are talented and that your work goes far beyond being a Festool contractor.  In fact, your value as a Festool contractor comes from your skills as a woodworker.

However, as far as this forum is concerned, members want to know, when someone posts a tool review, opinion or other statement, if that person has a relationship with Festool.  This is meant only to indicate those members who, at least on occasion, do projects for hire at Festool.  It falls along the continuum that includes Festool Employees and Festool Dealers.  Being in that position means you can offer more to members.

Also, from a forum management perspective, it would be a lot easier for me to say that anyone with a direct professional relationship to Festool is noted as such.  I would not have to be answering so many questions about this offline.

I'm open to different designations than "Festool Contractor."  If you have a suggestion, let me know.

Stay in touch,
Matthew

 

[monte]

I'm open to different designations than "Festool Contractor."  If you have a suggestion, let me know.

Stay in touch,
Matthew

Festool Consultant ?

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Festool Consultant ?

I'm fine with that.  The exact wording is not the point really, so let's see if we come up with something that conveys the right meaning.
Thanks for the suggestion!
Matthew

 

[greg mann]

In the fishing business everyone is a "Field Tester". In the software business they are "Beta Testers". Maybe we have some hybrid combo. I think Roger is pretty close to describing someone like Jerry. Rick may be more of a Beta Tester and Brice or Per seem more like field testers. John Lucas? He's just a lucky stiff. ;D

Am I making this too complicated? :

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Good Afternoon,
Just to be clear, we're only talking about people who do paid projects for Festool.  We're not talking about tool reviewers, since we already had a satisfactory discussion on that subject.

This is meant to be a way to have transparency in the roles different people play in the community, while continuing to have creative and smart people contribute fully.

Again, I'm open to other designations.  "Festool Contractor" was the first one that came to mind.

Let me hear your opinions.

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[Daviddubya]

...Let me hear your opinions.

Thanks,
Matthew

OK.  My opinion is that a label for the people that get paid for doing projects for Festool is not needed.  No, I have never been paid by Festool for doing anything.  I think this is yet another mountain-out-of-molehills topic.  It simply is not important.  Furthermore, it is usually pretty obvious.  Go to the Festool site and look at the names of the authors of manuals, "how to" articles  and "getting the most from" articles to get a good idea who many of the "contractors" would be.

I think you could make just as valid (or invalid) an argument for labeling people that get paid for doing work for clients (professionals), as compared to hobbyists.  It simply is not important.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

I think you could make just as valid (or invalid) an argument for labeling people that get paid for doing work for clients (professionals), as compared to hobbyists.  It simply is not important.

There was a lot behind this, and I gave it careful consideration for a long time before posting the idea.

Some background might help people better understand the situation here...

Over the past three months, I've received a constant flow of requests to make things more transparent in this forum.  A lot of the requests come from new members who are still confused about who plays what role in the forum and with the company.  This is connected to the discussion we had about who receives free tools and who doesn't.  Offline, I communicated with members who requested that anyone receiving free tools be indicated as such.  I said I did not want to designate who receives free tools, and I posted my position in the "Who is and Who Isn't" discussion.  A few people chose to close their FOG accounts, specifically because they felt I was wrong to not point out who receives free tools.

When an even greater number of members requested that contractors be designated as such, I found it difficult to argue with their logic.  Contractors are much closer to working for Festool than people receiving free review tools.  Also, it's a straightforward designation.  It's simply stating the facts of the person's level of expertise and that person's connection with the company.

It's not the same as defining who gets paid and who is a hobbiest.  Since this board is a place to discuss Festool tools, knowing who has a professional relationship with the company is important.

If anyone wants to disagree, I'm open to hearing it.  At the moment, most of the opinions I have heard about this are off-line, and they are all in favor of having a "Festool Contractor" designation.

Try to think about the administrative position on this.  Also, try to see yourself as a new member of the forum, who is just getting acquainted with the community.

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[Daviddubya]

...A few people chose to close their FOG accounts, specifically because they felt I was wrong to not point out who receives free tools.

When an even greater number of members requested that contractors be designated as such, I found it difficult to argue with their logic. 
...Thanks,
Matthew

I am concerned that moving in the direction of identifying "contractors" will drive away the very people that contribute a great deal to this forum.  As I pointed out earlier, it is pretty easy to figure out who the "contractors" are, if you want to know that information.  And if you don't know about a specific person, ask that person if it is important to you.  Several of the "contractors" have already expressed their unhappiness for being singled out, in this thread and in the "Who is and who isn't" thread.  Don't drive these people away!

This discussion brings to mind a concept I formed when I worked for a living (I am now retired).  I called the concept the 20-80 rule - 20% of the people in most companies do most of the meaningful work.  Those 20% are the idea people and the leaders (not necessarily managers).  The other 80% just do whatever the 20% come up with that needs to be done.

In this forum, there are a small number of people that make a big percentage of the valuable contributions.  Don't drive them away.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

In this forum, there are a small number of people that make a big percentage of the valuable contributions.  Don't drive them away.

I wish it was that easy!  But managing a forum of this size means listening to many different arguments and trying to find a balance among them.  Believe me, there are a lot of people who are very passionate about wanting more transparency.  At the same time, I value the contributions of the reviewers, contractors, and Festool employees.  The trick is, handling the requests for more transparency while keeping the big players active and interested.

This forum has always been managed with sensitivity to the community.  That's why I always open up a concept first and have a period of debate before making any decisions.  Many times, I have cancelled my own decision after hearing from the community.  In other forums I have belonged to, decisions are simply announced as done deals.

I would like to hear from more people on this.

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[Frank_M]

I sure don't post much, but read posts here.  I strongly think that people with professional relationships with Festool should be identified.  I have a similar thought for people receiving free tools as well, but lets hope that they themselves make this clear in their reviews/posts.

About Pareto's rule of 80-20... Yes, it may be true that 20% of people may indeed be posting most of the "useful" information, but this actually makes it even more important for the rest (who are already Festool customers or potential customers) to realize who these people are and what is their connection with the company.

If this transparency does not exist in this forum, most people will rightfully assume the content here is one-sided and this forum is nothing more than being part of Festool's marketing program.  I am one those who will discontinue reading the forum if I am not satisfied with the level of transparency.  If I was in Matt's shoes, I would not compromise from this even if it means that "those few people" don't like it here anymore and decide to leave.  I am certain once the clouds clear "regular people" will continue to make this place a useful one.

 

[Forrest Anderson]

I am concerned that moving in the direction of identifying "contractors" will drive away the very people that contribute a great deal to this forum...  Several of the "contractors" have already expressed their unhappiness for being singled out, in this thread and in the "Who is and who isn't" thread.  Don't drive these people away!

In this forum, there are a small number of people that make a big percentage of the valuable contributions.  Don't drive them away.

I agree with David. Like the Festool equipment we use, I think that the FOG should aim to be an "upmarket" forum.  A place you can find and post useful information, come up with new ideas, discuss problems and so on - in a calm, civil and professional manner. In my opinion, the quality of postings has gone down since the beginning of the year and sometimes the place resembles a children's playground with name-calling, jokes in bad taste, tantrums, and fights. In these same months we have lost several valuable members of the old Yahoo forum, and also seem to have lost any input from Festool themselves. Maybe they thought that since forum content was heading rapidly downhill, they simply didn't want to be associated with all the childish behaviour?

I don't come here for jokes or political or religious discussions - there are plenty of other places I can go for that. Consequently I'd be very happy to do away with the "Way Off Topic" board, as it simply gives people an excuse to spout worthless nonsense.

Festool is all about quality - I suggest we try to make the Festool Owners Group all about quality too!

As to the idea of labelling members "Festool Contractor" if they have done paid work for Festool, I think this is a case of carrying political correctness too far. I can follow the logic, but then I can also follow the logic of councils cutting down chestnut trees in case conkers fall on pedestrians. It makes sense in its own way, but has now become silly. Unless everyone is happy with the idea, particularly the "contractors" themselves, then I suggest the the idea is dropped. Preventing the loss of knowledgeable members is far more important than a bit of nannying legislation.

Forrest

 

[jonny round boy]

Matthew,

I understand both your point and your reasoning, but I agree with Jerry - I think giving some people a 'Festool contractor' designation will give people the wrong impression.

Just to be clear, we're only talking about people who do paid projects for Festool.  We're not talking about tool reviewers, since we already had a satisfactory discussion on that subject.

So if you're not talking about reviewers, what are you talking about? Sorry if I'm a bit dense, but "people who do paid projects for Festool" leaves me wondering what you mean. People who write after-market manuals for Festool tools? The people who build the reception desk in Festool's offices?

If someone is doing/has done something on contract for Festool, then perhaps there should be some acknowledgement of that, but to label them as a 'Festool Contractor' would be unfair if that only represents a small portion of their work.

 

[Daviddubya]

I have been a participating member of several woodworking forums.  I cannot think of a single forum where members are asked to identify their professional affiliation.  Lots of woodworking forums have members that work for a vendor, and many are members that make their living providing services to woodworkers as well as clients.  None of these other forums require those members to identify themselves.  In fact several forums encourage those "connected" members to participate because they bring a lot of goodness to the discussions.  Just like here at the FOG.

Even though this forum is specifically aimed at Festool products and users, I don't see the reason for the concern about our members being biased in their posts.  If people want to quit an Internet forum because someone with a financial connection to a topic makes a post expressing their opinion without identifying their connection, then those folks better find some other way to get "unbiased" information.  The Internet, like life itself, is filled with interests that influence opinions.  Sort it out yourself and live with it!

 

[greg mann]

If anyone comes to this forum and doesn't expect to find a somewhat favorable bias toward Festool products they are being naive at best. Sure we can pick some things apart with the best of them, but we would not be here and contributing on a regular basis unless we had gone through a sorting out process and decided that Festool, for the most part, has it right. I have never personally done a review, or received any compensation for not doing one  :, but those facts don't preclude the possibility that my posts could be rampant with bias. I could be just another snake in the grass. Anyone who feels they need to be forewarned through an identification process already assumes some kind of 'sweetheart arragement' must exist, so identification of even the most benign form for these folks will simply engender the following: "Aha! That's what I would expect him to say! He's on the payroll!" Good grief.

I think, for someone like Jerry whose qualifications are available for anyone to see via his website, it would be demeaning to require him do anything different than he has. To me, it's simple. He has practiced his craft for years, come to conclusions about what works for him, and many of those conclusions have included Festool. All of his reviews start with a position statement of sorts explaining what his thought process is in a very objective manner. It is almost like those who want more disclosure don't want to be bothered with the details. If that is the case, this is the wrong hobby or the wrong profession. I see no reason to pander to that narrowmindedness any further.

 

[danrush]

Threre are a few members who are posting here in public regarding their wish for more identification of Festool contractors.  I disaggree with them, but applaud their willingness to openly disscuss this issue.  Where are those that have privately PM'd Matthew?  Why is it that "transparency" doesn't extend to their views?  Do they number in the dozens?, hundreds?

It seems to me that a good technique is a good technique (or idea, view, criticism) whether I know the original poster's affiliation with Festool (or Bosch, Dewalt, etc) or not.  There is still the idea of personal responsibiliy, and I would suggest that extends to whether one should buy a tool , or not.  I respect all of the "contractors" we seem so concerned with, but not one of them can convince me to purchase a tool on their writing skills alone.  It's still my money, and only I can spend it wisely, as I see fit. 

Buyer Beware.  A phrase that's been around for thousands of years. It suggests that at least some responsibility rests on the reader to discern truth from fiction.  ( unbiased fact from propaganda)

Please don't let those who can't or won't do at least some research themselves continue to fragment this forum even more. 

Dan

 

[sainttjames]

The information that various 'contractors' post here stands on its own merits - regardless of its provenance. The informational value in how to use a tool will not change - contractor or not.

I do not think this 'contractor' designation is needed.

 

[roadking06]

I don't think Matthew has a right to label anyone with a moniker those particular people don't give their express permission to be labeled with.

For all intents and purposes Matthew you are a simple admin here and gave up the rights to your perceived Festool transparency when you gave the forum to Festool. You may think you can do and say as you wish but Festool can and eventually will turn out the lights at a time of their choosing.

 

[Eli]

...Let me hear your opinions.

Thanks,
Matthew

OK.  My opinion is that a label for the people that get paid for doing projects for Festool is not needed.  No, I have never been paid by Festool for doing anything.  I think this is yet another mountain-out-of-molehills topic.  It simply is not important.  Furthermore, it is usually pretty obvious.  Go to the Festool site and look at the names of the authors of manuals, "how to" articles  and "getting the most from" articles to get a good idea who many of the "contractors" would be.

I think you could make just as valid (or invalid) an argument for labeling people that get paid for doing work for clients (professionals), as compared to hobbyists.  It simply is not important.

Agreed

If anyone comes to this forum and doesn't expect to find a somewhat favorable bias toward Festool products they are being naive at best.

Hear, Hear.

This is not an important issue. As to the people who are just joining and want more transparency, read the backlog of threads. Put in some time, sit out a few rounds on the edge of the fire and figure it out. You have highly developed cognitive skills that enabled you to turn on the computer and start punching keys.

In the meat world, do people walk up to a series of conversations in progress and say, "I don't understand, explain everything you guys are talking about to me"?

Hell no. They shut up and listen. Unless they're the boss. But that usually doesn't turn out any better.