Festool Contractors

[TomCrawford]

I agree 100% with David and Forrest.  I come here to read and learn about Festool Products, how to use them, how they can help me solve a particular problem and about the experience of others using these tools.  I have never once wondered if the information here might be biased because there was a payment or free tool. It is very clear to me that those this suggestion is directed at are all very highly qualified professionals are interested only in passing on their experience, knowledge and skills. 

I am concerned that this forum in diverging from all things Festool and find I spend less time now than in the past reading the post here.  I have in the past recommended this forum to people that were contemplating a Festool at my local supplier.  It seems the forum is now becoming less and less Festool centric and I'm not sure I would continue to make this recommendation. I do not need another general woodworking forum.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

I don't think Matthew has a right to label anyone with a moniker those particular people don't give their express permission to be labeled with.

Decisions here are made with community involvement.  My idea about "Festool Contractors" comes from listening to many members on this matter.  The thing that makes this complicated, in a way, is that many of the members who ask for this are the ones who don't necessarily participate all the time in the forum.  As the administrator, I have a lot of offline communication with members, and I can tell you that many intense concerns never make it to public view.  So, it's not really a question of whether I have the right to do this.  It's what right does the community have to determine these things, and how do I make decisions that reflect the community's wishes best?

For all intents and purposes Matthew you are a simple admin here and gave up the rights to your perceived Festool transparency when you gave the forum to Festool. You may think you can do and say as you wish but Festool can and eventually will turn out the lights at a time of their choosing.

That's not really the way it is.  Yes, Festool owns the domain.  However, they do not control the content.  That remains under my control, as it always has.  So, strictly speaking, I did not give the forum to Festool.  I'm not sure why you are so certain that Festool "can and eventually will turn out the lights" on this forum.  However, even if they did, the forum would simply re-emerge under a new domain, so it would be a temporary outage, at best!

I've posted full explanations about these matters in other places.  Here are links to relevant discussions:
Domain and Database
Joint Statement from Forum Administrator and Festool

I'm still interested in hearing more opinions about the whole "Festool Contractor" question.

Stay in touch,
Matthew

 

[Per Swenson]

Real simple the way I see.

Reganesque even. less government, less management, more productivity.

Of course, there is always the old adage, "if it ain't broke don't fix it"

Per

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Real simple the way I see.

Reganesque even. less government, less management, more productivity.

Of course, there is always the old adage, "if it ain't broke don't fix it"

I agree with you, and as you know this forum is generally run with a hands-off attitude.  But there are times when the call for something to happen reaches a certain level, and I do need to act on it.  In a different kind of forum, the decision would just be made without discussion.  Here, I like to involve people in the debate whenever possible.

Again, the complication is that there are competing demands.

On one hand, a lot of people want more transparency so they can trust the forum more.  Some of them have even closed their accounts because they don't feel there is enough transparency.

On the other hand, a lot of people feel that extra transparency is not necessary.  Some of them say they might not get involved in the forum if there is too much concern about  transparency.

This really gets at a core issue for this forum: how best to meet the needs of new members, who might still be confused about the whole thing, and established members, who feel comfortable and confident about what's what.  My job is to consider both and make decisions that satisfy as many people as possible.

Perhaps it would help if each group (new and established members) tried to imagine themselves in the other one's shoes.  Then put yourself in my shoes.

Stay in touch,
Matthew

 

[Per Swenson]

You can not please all the people all the time.

So don't try.

My personal opinion for what its worth.

This is a waste of valuable time writing about it and considering it.

Ya wanna do it. Go ahead.

But if you are going to open a debate and decide by committee,

two pages later you will have no decision and a bigger waste of time.

But you might have a camel.

Nah, if I was getting private e-mails on how I should run my forum.

I would just delete them, in a nice way of course.

I may joke around a lot Matt, thats my nature.

But I have a real low tolerance for the petty and stoopid.

Per

 

[Frank Pellow]

I don't think that such a label is needed.  And, I am worried that it might drive folks like Jerry away from the forum.

It appears that the vast majority of members who have responded to this thread so far agree with me. 

Matthew, if you do decide to go ahead with such a label in spite of these responses, please don't make it 'Festool Contractor'.  I find that term very confusing.  'Festool Consultant' is a lot better -but it is not needed.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Frank,
Thanks for the honest response -- always appreciated!

Can you, or others, explain why it is offensive to be noted as a person who does work for Festool?

By the way, this discussion helps me out a lot!  It includes more people in the decision.  If I simply tell people, offline, "Sorry, I refuse to add that label," it just sounds like the administrator refusing to listen to people.  But this discussion shows that the decision includes the opinions of a lot of people, not just me.

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[b_m_hart]

Frank,
Thanks for the honest response -- always appreciated!

Can you, or others, explain why it is offensive to be noted as a person who does work for Festool?

By the way, this discussion helps me out a lot!  It includes more people in the decision.  If I simply tell people, offline, "Sorry, I refuse to add that label," it just sounds like the administrator refusing to listen to people.  But this discussion shows that the decision includes the opinions of a lot of people, not just me.

Thanks,
Matthew

I think that this kinda falls in line with the "disclosure is nice, but should be voluntary" thread we had relative to the people that do reviews with gear provided by the manufacturer...

 

[Frank Pellow]

...
Can you, or others, explain why it is offensive to be noted as a person who does work for Festool?
...

'
I don't think it's offensive, just confusing.  When, I see someone labelled as a 'Festool Contractor' it implies to me that they are 'hired out' by Festool to do work for folks and/or that a large chunk of their income comes from Festool.  This is obviously no the case for people like Jerry who do a minor amount of paid work for Festool.

 

[monte]

Can you, or others, explain why it is offensive to be noted as a person who does work for Festool?

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[attachimg=#]

The more I would think of this, the more I think we are dealing with a primal issue here.

Yes, I could go into all the technical reasons, those I believe are actually secondary.

Let's for a moment approach this on a soul/empowerment level.

Ever wonder where the term "pigeonholed" could be applied?

This would be it, it feels restrictive.

And if that house above was a symbol for FOG.

Each one of those little holes would have Festool Consultant or Contractor,

with the person's name written above it.

And NOBODY likes to be pigeonholed.

I think the desired "image" is, that we are flying high within our respective crafts,

and once and a while we land on a telephone/internet wire and communicate "on line" and then fly off.

No room for a green embossed shingle/sign below.

I'm for the image below.

R.

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[Matthew Schenker]

Good Afternoon,
OK, I'm listening to everyone here.  Thank you for being open about your opinions, and adding some humor.  I'm a bird lover, so Roger's visuals work well with me!

I must admit, however, that I don't entirely agree about the pidgeonholing issue.  Lots of forums have designations, and everyone understands that the "title" under the person's name is not the full description of who the person is.  It's only one part of who that person is.  I'm listed as the Forum Administrator, but it's just one part of what I am.  Same goes for dealers (many dealers sell a lot more than just Festool tools).  But it's important for members to know that I'm the administrator, and to know who the dealers are.

I'm just saying that I do understand what new members are saying when they ask for this kind of thing.  At the same time, I also understand what Roger and others are saying here.  I certainly don't mean to pidgeonhole anyone, or demean anyone.

I know this sounds like a to-do about nothing.  But really, people have left the forum because of what they perceive as a lack of clarity on "who's who" here.  I don't want that to happen.

Stay in touch,
Matthew

 

[Daviddubya]

...Can you, or others, explain why it is offensive to be noted as a person who does work for Festool?...

It is offensive because several of the folks that fall into that "category" have said it is - they don't like it.  And, as I have stated earlier, it is unnecessary.  It is obvious who these "contractors" are and a label is not needed.  If it is not obvious to a newcomer, let that person ask, if it is important to that person.  Most of the folks that would wind up labeled have already said they will post their Festool affiliation when appropriate to do so, as at the beginning of a tool review.  We are beating a dead horse that is beginning to smell bad.  The vast majority of replies in this thread have said forget it.  So forget it!

 

[waynew]

No one is pigeon holing anyone. This forum is primarily for and about  the OWNERS of Festool equipment, its not here to make the paid associates of Festool feel good about themselves. As an owner/member I'd feel more comfortable if those folk who are being paid by Festool take on a title indicating that association even if it something along the lines of 'Festool Associate', which indicates they do have a financial relationship with Festool. They could always put a little more detail into the signature section if they feel it necessary.
To my mind this is more of a title than a tag, certainly not something to feel uncomfortable about, your work will get judged for what it is not for the title you have. From what I've read of these folk they are producing very concice and helpful documents and posts on this board.

To those members who equate the bias that a Festool tool owner has for his tools to the possible bias of a paid Festool associate think about that again, they both have very different flavors. I'm definitely biased toward owning Festool tools and if I show that bias on this forum thats fine too because I have a right to demonstrate my biases here, those that are paid by Festool shouldn't get that same privilege because the perception is they are getting paid to say what they are saying.  Let me be clear I'm not suggesting anyone here is doing that but its the perception that will ultimately undermine the foundations of the forum.

THanks,
Wayne

 

[monte]

...Can you, or others, explain why it is offensive to be noted as a person who does work for Festool?...

It is offensive because several of the folks that fall into that "category" have said it is - they don't like it.  And, as I have stated earlier, it is unnecessary.  It is obvious who these "contractors" are and a label is not needed.  If it is not obvious to a newcomer, let that person ask, if it is important to that person.  Most of the folks that would wind up labeled have already said they will post their Festool affiliation when appropriate to do so, as at the beginning of a tool review.  We are beating a dead horse that is beginning to smell bad.  The vast majority of replies in this thread have said forget it.  So forget it!

Ditto what David just said.

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[dirtydeeds]

my tuppence................

you are searching for a bogie man who doesnt exist

what does it matter if sombody gets paid to write an artical for festool (or for that matter doesnt get paid)

artical writers have "by lines" that can be seen by all

reviwers are NOT politians who can award multi million dollar contracts or can influence the policy of a country if their views are

shall we say "tweeked" by backhanders

and while we are at it

festool are not a massive multi billion dollar, multi national corporation who can ride out a storm of contractors and hobbiests denouncing false or innaccurate reviews

 

[Per Swenson]

Oh I like communicating in images.

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Per

 

[plywood]

This discussion has more to do with the community of this forum than the integrity of individual posters.  Disclosure is so expected in general society that a lack of disclosure gives a real appearance of guilt.  I have been here since March of 08 and was shocked to hear some people got free tools or money for the work they posted.  When I signed up for the community I read statements to give the impression that there is no affiliation between this forum and Festool.  If people received compensation without disclosure that can not be the case.  Step away from FOG and ask if you want to know if your doctor is being paid by a drug manufacturer to push their brand of drugs.  Would you want to pay a financial advisor for retirement advice and then find out the advisor was being paid by a financial institution to direct customers toward their funds. Many here are contractors. If you needed specific product advice would you trust a fellow contractor or a salesperson for a specific manufacturer.  If you hide your payments by Festool, when people find out about the affiliation they will loose faith in the honesty of this forum.  Disclosure shows a level of honesty with the readers and protects the reputation of the poster.  It is one more important piece of information that allows the reader to make an informed decision.

I think a reasonable response is to post your relationship when Festool pays you for your work.  When you are not paid ,no disclosure is necessary.  This will give everyone confidence in the system without ?labeling? a poster on every post.  I respect the work of the people who have been paid and posted here.  I do not feel that their posts were not their own opinion.  With 4000 members and growing ,transparency should be expected and honored.

 

[Scott W.]

Oh I like communicating in images.

..............
Per

Per,

Here's one to add to your arsenal ;D ;D

[attachimg=1]

Scott W.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Everyone,
I'd appreciate it if we could have a respectful discussion here.  As I said earlier, a lot of people who are new to the community have asked for transparency, and that is a legitimate discussion for this community to have.  I also think it's legitimate for experienced members to explain why they disagree.  In other words, let's work something out.  In the end, we can have something that makes everyone happy and improves the community for both new and experienced members.  Both kinds of members are equally valuable to this community.

There is no reason to insult people's interests in the discussion with crude images.

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[Per Swenson]

Ok,

I am going to be serious one more time and thats it. I promise.

Plywood, You started out great! First sentence you nailed it, put in

the ol' nutshell. Right here,  "This discussion has more to do with the community of this forum than the integrity of individual posters. "

That's the point.

This is a community and all are welcome.

Takes about a day of reading to figure out, (and by gawd I hate this expression also), who is and who isn't.

And trust me, there aren't many. And the "consulting/contracting" work they do is minimal at best.

But look at it this way, I do a little church work now and then, I also did a huge amount of  Town work.

Side of my truck and business card says Carpenter, not Roman Catholic Township Employee.

This hue and cry and cry for transparency, when lets face it, is all ready plain as day,

is aptly expressed in the silly pictures above.

And here is a little more food for thought.

This is the most open honest tool forum going.

And by being here since this was a Yahoo board, I have come to know everybody.

I suggest here and now for the few who are so concerned about contractors...

Send them a personal message and ask them.

The same way you sent Matthew a PM calling for transparency.

For those who know me know I answer each and every PM and e-mail in my box.

And so does every long time committed member of this board.

Hold on I ain't done yet.

I am not against the transparency issue at all.

Thats not why I keep responding to this thread.

No, I am firmly against the petty stupidity this idea represents.

Roger calls it pigeon holing.  I think Branding is shorter.

And If I was a paid contractor and I am not. (By my definition,not yours)

Do you think for one minute I could write with the air of independent thought that I do,

with Festool next to my name.

See?

Lets just knock this Idea back in the Bin and move on.

Per