Festool drill or Milwaukee?

Power and Torque can be both measured in a lab environment, but it is difficult to gauge it subjectively, when using a tool. Additionally, there is a common confusion between "Power" and "Torque".

If one uses a lower gear setting on the drill, one might think that the drill has more power than the same drill in a higher gear just because it will not slow down or stop when drilling with a large diameter bit. But in fact its power is exactly the same regardless of the gear setting. The torque is different, though. The slower is the RPM, for the same power, the higher is the torque. If you take brand A and brand B with the same motor, but with different gear ratios, you may think that the one with slower RPM is more powerful than the other due to a difference in torque which you feel each time the drill bit "bites" in the wood and the drill attempt to rotate you rather than drill bit.

The article below explains that the only meaningful for practical applications definition of power is linked to how long it takes to drill a hole using optimum performance settings, not how it "feels" when drilling.


Power Tools - Power Tools: What Does Torque Rating Really Mean?


Cordless tools have come of age. Now, newer technology allows cordless tools to perform on or near par with their corded counterparts. You might want to take another look at performance standards to make sure you’re getting the cordless tool you really need to complete your jobs effectively and quickly.

A New Way To Look at Power
The key to drill performance is being able to deliver the required torque at the highest speed. A common misconception is: the higher the torque rating, the faster the drill will complete an application. That’s not necessarily true.

Torque is the force the drill produces to turn an object, not how fast an object will turn. In recent years torque ratings have been steadily increasing to levels beyond what is actually needed to complete applications. A new way to measure the performance of a drill is to combine speed and torque, a measurement called Power.

Performance Ratings
Power can be measured by the ability of a device to produce work.
Power is measured by the formula: Speed X’s Torque/K = Power
K is constant and varies depending on the units used to measure torque
Speed is how fast the drill turns (revolutions/minute)
Torque is the force the drill produces to turn an object
Power is the amount of work completed in a given period of time

Traditional Measurement Method for Torque Rating:
Mounting drill into rig
Locking chuck onto a fixed spindle
Drill is fully powered
Measures drill torque level at 0 rpm (does not measure speed)

New Measurement Method for Power Rating:
Mounting drill into rig
Locking chuck onto a rotating spindle
Drill is fully powered
Torque loads increasingly applied
Measures drill speed and torque with multiple data points

The Power Rating
A drill’s Power Rating has been used for many years as a tool to design products. It is not until now that it will be used as new way of evaluating a drill’s performance level, and is a direct indication of how fast it will complete an application.

The drill’s Power Rating is measured by its Units Watts Out (UWO), the point where the drill’s speed and torque output are the highest. The higher a drill’s Power Rating, or UWO, the faster it will perform on the jobsite.

Remember:
Torque ≠ time to complete applications Power = Speed & Torque output under load Max Watts Out (MWO) = Power of the motor Unit Watts Out (UWO) = Power of the total drill

This article is from the July issue of Grainger’s On the Job® newsletter.
 
I under the difference between power and torque, force and acceleration, momentum and energy, Watts versus volts...

However the specs do not put the FT drills in a class of their own. Maybe they do, but it is not the class with the highest power or the highest torque. Or the best motor power factor.
 
Holmz said:
I under the difference between power and torque, force and acceleration, momentum and energy, Watts versus volts...

However the specs do not put the FT drills in a class of their own. Maybe they do, but it is not the class with the highest power or the highest torque. Or the best motor power factor.

Sorry, my comment was not in response to your post, I just wanted to explain some complexity in the notions of torque and power, to help with arguments which started a few posts above.

I find it amusing when people are so obsessed with power of battery operated drills. I feel that drills had more than enough torque and power to be able to cause an injury to the person who holds the drill already 5-10 years ago. Those who need more power need a corded drill with a side handle. Has anyone really seen an underpowered 18 V - 20 V cordless drill?
 
AIPDX said:
Holmz said:
I under the difference between power and torque, force and acceleration, momentum and energy, Watts versus volts...

However the specs do not put the FT drills in a class of their own. Maybe they do, but it is not the class with the highest power or the highest torque. Or the best motor power factor.

Sorry, my comment was not in response to your post, I just wanted to explain some complexity in the notions of torque and power, to help with arguments which started a few posts above.

I find it amusing when people are so obsessed with power of battery operated drills. I feel that drills had more than enough torque and power to be able to cause an injury to the person who holds the drill already 5-10 years ago. Those who need more power need a corded drill with a side handle. Has anyone really seen an underpowered 18 V - 20 V cordless drill?

18V yes, never tried a 20V. Big screws in oak tends to sort the men from the boys round my way.
 
AIPDX said:
Power and Torque can be both measured in a lab environment, but it is difficult to gauge it subjectively, when using a tool. Additionally, there is a common confusion between "Power" and "Torque".

Looks like DeWalt's marketing team did their job.  [blink] [eek]

There is no UWO, there is only torque. From a dead stop, when you need to spin a fastener, you need torque. There's no "power", RPMs are always ZERO. You can't "get a running start" and give that fastener an extra nudge, unless you give it some English with some wrist action or something goofy.

Additionally, the gear ratios aren't user adjustable, so it's not like you're optimizing your geartrain to each individual driving application.
 
The majority of drills have a gear ratio selector, usually it is a slider on top of the drill. It is a mechanical gear switch. Most drills have two gears, Festool PDC has four gears. This is how the user can find the best balance between RPMs and Torque.

Electrical motors have their highest torque at zero or nearly zero RPMs. However, a drillis useless at zero RPMs because without rotation you will neither drive a fastener, nor will drill a hole. You need both torque and RPMs. You need decent torque and relatively high RPMs to do your work efficiently. The combination of these two parameters is called power. It is not marketing, it is physics.

 
I do see the PDC to be in a fairly unique class, but not due to it being class leading in power .. simply the 4 speed gearbox and hammer option in a usefully powerful cordless drill - that also comes with the added benefit of Festool's warranty,  service and support.

Add Centrotec and the range of chucks and you have a very versatile drill/driver.

A tool, regardless of it's features and flexibility will only ever cover part of the potential spectrum of use for a given category. On the fringe of that spectrum, it will typically become marginal.

If funds are a consideration, as they often are, you should ALWAYS shop based on what you need the tool to do, not which tool has the most ...
 
AIPDX said:
Holmz said:
I under the difference between power and torque, force and acceleration, momentum and energy, Watts versus volts...

However the specs do not put the FT drills in a class of their own. Maybe they do, but it is not the class with the highest power or the highest torque. Or the best motor power factor.

Sorry, my comment was not in response to your post, I just wanted to explain some complexity in the notions of torque and power, to help with arguments which started a few posts above.

I find it amusing when people are so obsessed with power of battery operated drills. I feel that drills had more than enough torque and power to be able to cause an injury to the person who holds the drill already 5-10 years ago. Those who need more power need a corded drill with a side handle. Has anyone really seen an underpowered 18 V - 20 V cordless drill?

Yes the Milwaukee 18V drill is really under powered.  Well it  was a couple years ago when I had it. I kept burning it out and it would start smoking. Milwaukee replaced it under warranty which was brilliant.
I was told Milwaukee has protection system so I should not have been able to burn it out. 

I got the replacement from Milwaukee  and that also got extremely hot so I stopped using it before that burnt out  and just left it at home because it was no good to me in the end I let my mate have it for £10 with a battery.

  So I had to use my festool T15 instead which is still working to this day.  Thing is festool nailed it on the head with their motor protection.

A lot of companies claimed few years ago (I can't comment with today's because not bought a drill recently) they had battery  and motor protection but I found most drill companies were either lying or it was just a crap protection system.  Festools protection system actually worked in them days as others did not.

You push a festool drill and it just stops and beeps  you push other manufactures drills and they will stop but not because the system stopped it but cus the motor couldn't handle it.  So you could easily over heat the motor over the course of the day. 

I burnt a Bosch drill which was an impact drill. Impact drill you would think is the least likely drill to burn out and a Milwaukee drill and makita drill but not a festool.

I would stick with festool or I might look at Metabo I'm liking the new batteries!
I would avoid Milwaukee drills
I wouldn't bother with Bosch or makita.
I have always hated Dewalt so why change now

 
I've always had a thing against Dewalt of recent years and I must confess it mostly has to do with them being bright yellow. To me they look like they belong in the hands of the Village People, not bonfide workmen [eek]

Wish they hadn't brought out an interesting cordless framing nailer ... I may have to get myself a skimpy leather vest  [embarassed]
 
Nail gun yellow parts no idea about a leather vest. Then again it's still a dewalt even with a colour change
 
Kev said:
I've always had a thing against Dewalt of recent years and I must confess it mostly has to do with them being bright yellow. To me they look like they belong in the hands of the Village People, not bonfide workmen [eek]

Wish they hadn't brought out an interesting cordless framing nailer ... I may have to get myself a skimpy leather vest  [embarassed]

Bona Fide is a term used in construction relating to qualified genuine tradesmen, people who can indemnify their own designs and workmanship, other spellings of this Latin term are classed as non genuine as are the people who use them.
 
Wuffles said:
18V yes, never tried a 20V. Big screws in oak tends to sort the men from the boys round my way.

[member=20162]Wuffles[/member]
What size screw in oak? You must be talking about a lag bolt of some sort.
 
Cheese said:
Wuffles said:
18V yes, never tried a 20V. Big screws in oak tends to sort the men from the boys round my way.

[member=20162]Wuffles[/member]
What size screw in oak? You must be talking about a lag bolt of some sort.

250mm timberlock screw.
 
You guys crack me up!  I thought the application / job at hand dictated the tool, never have I used the color of the tool as a criteria for the job....  I would choose my 20V DeWalt Impact driver any day over my T18 if I had to drive lag bolts, much quicker, easier, and easier on the wrist!

I recall a thread on here many months ago asking if Festool owners are snobs, I think this thread goes a long way towards proving that point.....  Just saying.

Besides, what's wrong with the Village People?  Macho men = macho tools!
 
Milwaukee is made in China by who knows who. Chinese make Fly-Fishing rods and have no idea how a Trout looks like.
If you have no problem to hold and use such a tool, good part of your life, then go for Milwaukee. To many it means a lot WHO made what they use, be it oil-paints, a car, a brush, or a tools, but to many it just does not matter.
 
Any cheap 18 v impact driver can screw a 250 lag bolt into oak now screwing it in straight now thats a different story
 
Darren1972 said:
Any cheap 18 v impact driver can screw a 250 lag bolt into oak now screwing it in straight now thats a different story

If a Timberlock screw is considered a "lag bolt", then you are incorrect.
 
Wuffles said:
Darren1972 said:
Any cheap 18 v impact driver can screw a 250 lag bolt into oak now screwing it in straight now thats a different story

If a Timberlock screw is considered a "lag bolt", then you are incorrect.

So this is nothing exciting then?
 
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