Festool FS Guide Rail vs Mafell F Guide Rail

[Cheese]

It might just be me, but you need new twist knob [scared]

Ya, I guess a new knob is in my future.  [big grin]

The funny thing is that I made several 15º bevel cuts and had just readjusted the saw for some additional 45º bevel cuts, I placed the saw on the track, pulled the trigger, plunged the saw and for some reason I decided to check the underside for clearance. [eek]

If I had moved that saw just an additional 3"-4" that clamp would have been cut in half, to say nothing of the additional noise and confusion that cut would have created.

 

[HowardH]

That is a great bracket Rob! Perfect for people who want to build their own MFT style table.

Can it be fitted to a Festool MFT for those who want to upgrade?

Yes. It's a direct retrofit for the MFT.

Just saw this.  What a great system!  I suppose one can continue to use the Festool fence or use Parf Dogs, etc.  Is that correct?

 

[periquito]

I have both Mafell and Festool guide systems.

I own a Mafell mt 55 cc incision saw

In my opinion and after having tested it with this incision saw, without a doubt, with the mafell guides a cut with greater precision is achieved, in the mafell guide, after adjusting with the wheels there is a high force for the oscillating saw, in The festool rail no matter how much the head saw is tightened, this could cause some slight deviation in the cut in demanding cuts of thick and hard materials.

For cutting boards it may not have any influence but if you start to demand the saw with cuts in hard and difficult wood there is no doubt that the cutting precision on the mafell rail will be superior.

We must also say in favor of festool of its compatibility and the number of accessories.

And in fact the anti-splinter rubber band of my festool guides is damaged and bitten in some parts of the guide, an unequivocal sign that sometimes the cut deviated slightly, none of that happens in the anti-splinter rubber band of the mafell guide.

The only clear advantage that I recognize to the Festool rail is its better adherence to the piece if clamps are not used.

It is not true that it goes smoother in Festool than in Mafell (With the MT55 saw) and as long as the wheels are adjusted to avoid oscillation behind, in front of the saw.

The winner is clear, the Mafell guides are superior in most variables, although the Mafell saws have prices that are sometimes double that of the Festool and there are far fewer accessories.

Undoubtedly, Mafell tools are more oriented to professional use and wood handling. Festool in general seems to be more concerned with reducing costs and offering versatile tools, it has good products and good value for money but it does not reach the refinement of Mafell tools.

 

[periquito]

Looking forward to Sunday’s posts, reply #65 was less than satisfactory  [poke]

The congruence of the splinter guard to the kerf was what drew me to Festool in the first place. But we all know that relationship degrades, sometime rapidly. I learned to move the splinter guard out with the aid of a heat gun but I haven’t done that in more than a year to any of my rails.

Sometimes I stick a Post-It note to the bottom of the rail to get a fresh indication of where the kerf is but often I just use a steel rule butted against the aluminum rail to register the appropriate increment to the mark. A metric rule usually works best.

Well [member=297]Michael Kellough[/member]  this doesn't answer your first issue but it does address the 2nd & 3rd issue...in a round-about fashion.  [big grin]

Recently, I've been using both the Festool rails & the Mafell rails with the MT 55. When using the Festool rail it's been very difficult to decide which part of the splinter strip I should align with the pencil mark because it's so chewed up. I should note that I changed the splinter strips on all the Festool rails last fall, so this shows the amount of damage over 1 year with only intermittent use.

[attachimg=1]

When I place a straight edge along the strip this is what it looks like. Dimensionally that's about a 1/32" gap.

[attachimg=2]

Here's what the Mafell looks like.

[attachimg=3]

Zooming out a bit this is the view. Note that there is a gap of various widths starting at the 2 3/4" mark and extending to the 10 13/16" mark. This makes aligning the splinter strip with a pencil mark difficult. The semi-solution would be to mark the splinter strip in 2 places and then use those marks to align to the pencil line.

[attachimg=4]

In comparison here's the Mafell rail.

[attachimg=5]

This issue started after I ripped several long pieces of maple to the same width using both brands of rails and noticed a difference in width between the pieces. The Mafell rails produced very uniform widths while the Festool rails produced scattered results. Some of the pieces from the Festool rails even had a different width on each end of the board. [mad]

I don't think the source of the problem is caused by the saws (MT 55, TSC 55 & HKC 55), by the manufacturer of the rails or by the fit of the saws on the rails. I think it's the material that Festool chose to use as a splinter strip is the issue. I believe it's HDPE and it tends to be on the brittle side.

It would be interesting to attach a material similar to what Mafell uses, to the Festool rail, cut the splinter strip and then compare.

The lack of precision that you mentioned in some cuts with the festool guides is not due to the anti-chipping strip but is due to the anchoring of the saw on the rail, in the mafell guides it fits more precisely and does not oscillate easily even when high forces are applied on the festool rails there is oscillation

 

[Svar]

The lack of precision that you mentioned in some cuts with the festool guides is not due to the anti-chipping strip but is due to the anchoring of the saw on the rail, in the mafell guides it fits more precisely and does not oscillate easily even when high forces are applied on the festool rails there is oscillation

I disagree. Both saws can be adjusted on their respective rails with zero side to side movement. FYI, I have both saws.

 

[periquito]

The lack of precision that you mentioned in some cuts with the festool guides is not due to the anti-chipping strip but is due to the anchoring of the saw on the rail, in the mafell guides it fits more precisely and does not oscillate easily even when high forces are applied on the festool rails there is oscillation

I disagree. Both saws can be adjusted on their respective rails with zero side to side movement. FYI, I have both saws.

Not true, with the Mafell MT 55 saw.

No matter how much the adjustment wheels are tightened, the saw nods if force is applied, the oscillation is clearly visible visually, not even by tightening the maximum that it is very hard and is impossible to use like that. I have checked it and there is no doubt.

And if you have this saw, check to intentionally move the saw and you will see that the saw oscillates and the same does not happen when you put the saw on the mafell rail, there is no oscillation that can be seen visually.

Festool rails do not allow very high precision. Its should not be used for cuts that require high precision or for demanding cuts in wood

 

[Svar]

Festool rails do not allow very high precision. Its should not be used for cuts that require high precision or for demanding cuts in wood

I've used FT saws for many years on everything from softwood to aluminum and from large sheets to tiny parts. They have proven to be extremely precise, able to consistently shave off 0.1 mm if needed. I'm sure tens of thousands of woodworkers worldwide would agree.

 

[Michael Kellough]

I agree that how the saws engage the guide slot is not substantially different in terms of yaw stability.

Maybe periquito used a TS saw with an warped base that wobbled?

There is a little more roll movement possible with the TS saw.

 

[periquito]

I have the festool DSC-AG 125 that comes ready to use with the festool guides so tomorrow I will check if it fits accurately without any oscillation.

However, in this forum there are many festool users and many complain about bites in the festool anti-splinter piece, the same thing has happened to me with the Mafell MT 55, for me it is proof that sometimes the cut can be twist slightly and that is what produces those irregularities.

I maintain that the Mafell guide has a superior precision and for what I have read and in other posts in this same thread, the majority in this forum supports it, a forum in which it is assumed that there are many more users of Festool tools than of Mafell and yet there is no problem in recognizing superiority and that happens because this superiority is unquestionable.

And what is more, if demanding cuts were made, for example in tropical, hard wood and large widths. This difference in precision would be much more evident because entering the saw in hard material creates greater torsional forces and this is where festool guides have their vulnerable point.

I have both guide systems and say that the Mafell / Bosch guides are far superior to the Festool.

I have more Festool guides than Mafell so I'm not particularly happy to have found this little problem with the Festool guides.

However, I do not know if I explain it well, I am talking about putting a Mafell MT55 saw, the best plunge saw in the world, on a Festool rail, adjust the slide in such a way that it is very rigid and grab the saw from the front and the back and try Turning it with force, the saw oscillates slightly visibly during force so adjustment without movement is impossible. On the Mafell rail, an adjustment is possible without visually appreciating an oscillatory movement.

I will limit myself to saying that with this configuration MT 55 and rail festool it is impossible to achieve a very high precision and it is because the saw does not fit so precisely.

I understand that as a consequence of the design of the festool channel, the tools have a contact surface much greater than that of Mafell, the friction is higher, perhaps the developers of Festool preferred to sacrifice minimally the precision to achieve a better sliding for their rail, this is something that anyone notices from the first moment, extreme precision does not have to be a priority for the majority, it is not something that one can be sure of from the first minute, it requires demanding the machine and the guides.

As this post tries to compare both systems, in the comparison, for design reasons it is very difficult that with this design the festool guides have as precise a guide as the Mafell / Bosch guides

As I said I will check it with a specific tool for festool rails and here I will say it

But as I said in another post, festool guides have the advantage of better grip

 

[Michael Kellough]

“ However, I do not know if I explain it well, I am talking about putting a Mafell MT55 saw, the best plunge saw in the world, on a Festool rail, adjust the slide in such a way that it is very rigid and grab the saw from the front and the back and try Turning it with force, the saw oscillates slightly visibly during force so adjustment without movement is impossible. On the Mafell rail, an adjustment is possible without visually appreciating an oscillatory movement.”

I’m not sure what you mother tongue is but you express yourself in English infinitely better than I could in any other language.

So, it seems you are talking about how the Mafell saw performs on the Festool rail. You noticed that it exhibits more yaw than it does on it’s native rail.

I used my cordless MT55 on Festool rail a few times before I bought some Bosch guide rails but the cuts weren’t very demanding and I didn’t notice any poor performance. Once I had a proper Mafell style rail l never used the MT55 on a Festool rail again so haven’t made a comparison.

 

[periquito]

I am from Spain, My native language is Spanish.

At first I didn't notice any differences either, it was when I made a lot of cuts and realized the bites in the anti-splinter band. I decided to evaluate both systems more closely and that's when I discovered that there is no way to adjust the Festool rail on the MT55 so there is no back / forth oscillation.

I am not saying that with the festool rails the cut does not come out straight, what I am saying is that sometimes it can be twisted a little in certain circumstances and this happens because there is too much free space between the channel and the tool, the wheels give adjustment margin but not even As long as this fit is perfect, the saw always moves a little when force is applied and this limitation can sometimes reduce accuracy a bit.

Of course, these problems will accentuate the more difficult and demanding the cut to be made.

 

[periquito]

This issue started after I ripped several long pieces of maple to the same width using both brands of rails and noticed a difference in width between the pieces. The Mafell rails produced very uniform widths while the Festool rails produced scattered results. Some of the pieces from the Festool rails even had a different width on each end of the board. [mad]

I don't think the source of the problem is caused by the saws (MT 55, TSC 55 & HKC 55), by the manufacturer of the rails or by the fit of the saws on the rails. I think it's the material that Festool chose to use as a splinter strip is the issue. I believe it's HDPE and it tends to be on the brittle side.

It would be interesting to attach a material similar to what Mafell uses, to the Festool rail, cut the splinter strip and then compare.

This is precisely what I have commented that happens in my previous posts, but it is not how you suggest a problem with the splinter protection but rather the problem is that the saw does not fit with precision and rigidity in the channel, no matter how much the wheels are tightened adjustment, it is not possible to achieve a rigidity comparable to that obtained in the Mafell / Bosch rail.

And this taking into account that to reduce the oscillation in the festool guide you have to put it so hard that you have to have good arms to move the saw along the rail and it does not even equal the rigidity that you can get in the Mafell / Bosch guide on top of having a normal and fully functional glide.

I have the same configuration as you and I have the same symptoms. What already depends on each one the importance that you give to precision or how meticulous you are with these parameters, also, the materials you cut and the work you do but without a doubt the Mafell guide seems an improved design and is more suitable for professional use, where they don't have time for adjustments and need to work quickly and accurately.

I conclude that the Mafell / Bosch guide system is an evolution, it is more professional, more precise.

The Festool system is very widespread, with many accessories, it is feasible to make cuts without holding the pieces (With caution)

I do not agree with many comments about the best sliding of the Festool guides (with the MT 55) It glides very well, yes but only if the adjusting wheels remain loose, the saw can be used like this but it takes very little force The saw oscillates so the cut can be deflected relatively easily. How the saw is gripped will also have an influence.

On the other hand, with Mafell / Bosch guides, the jaws are very suitable and necessary, but if they are not used, you have to be very careful with the cut, the guide can be easily deviated

 

[periquito]

As promised, I have tested the Festool rails with a Festool machine, the AG 125 De

Machine made in the Czech Republic

I have this machine since this past summer, it seems manufactured in July 2020, I have used it a couple of times but never on the Festool guidelines.

When testing the machine on the Festool guides I discovered that the rear plastic piece (in this case it is not a wheel but a piece of plastic and a screw) The screw has passed and it does not tighten the plastic piece against the guide. what the fastening is deficient.

A serious failure in quality control, I think it can be solved by changing the screw.

I'm sorry if someone has been offended or thinks their interests are affected but I have spent a lot more money on Festool tools than on tools from other brands and I can't help but feel disappointed, first of all with the Festool guides, good looking, many interesting accessories but the adjustment with the machines is not very good, it is not rigid and if you are not careful the cut can deviate

I am not saying that you cannot make straight cuts, what I am saying is that you cannot trust everything to the guide, it does not fit with enough rigidity to move the saw forward and not worry about applying a certain force on the machine to prevent it from the saw oscillates.

Because if someone buys these guides for approximately € 100, it is because they trust a perfect guide, since a straight cut can also be made by supporting the tool on an aluminum or wood guide for a much lower cost.

I have both systems and I am in a position to ensure that with the Mafell guides the oscillation is minimal, I have recorded a video with the saw on and using a lot of force, the oscillation is minimal and the applied force is great, so much that it displaces the guide itself. the surface, the rigidity is superior and therefore its precision is also.
I also understand that in this forum there are many users of Festool tools and rails and I am sure that there will be many happy users but I am not because I invested a lot of money in this system and after evaluating it with the competition I feel the disappointment of those who made a decision wrong.

The videos where the problem is appreciated:

https://dai.ly/x7yw0q8
https://dai.ly/x7yw0ue

The channel surface on Mafell / Bosch guides is much smaller so they can afford to make a much tighter hole without increased friction that makes the tool immovable.

Therefore, the problem with Festool guides is with the design of their channel and it could only be solved (without changing the shape of the guide) with bearings or some other complicated fitting system at the base of the tool, something that would make the product and it seems that Festool is rather looking at how to cut costs and not spend money on excellence that would inevitably drive up the price of its tools.

What if I ask please is that you do not offend me with insinuations, in this post it is about comparing both systems, there is no possible comparison, Mafell / Bosch guide systems are clearly superior and starting with the precision of guidance and rigidity, something fundamental, first of all.

 

[mkasdin]

There are a lot of happy Festool users that own various tools... I can’t comment on the accuracy of the ag(c) 125 grinder on the FT rail, I’ve never seen the tool. As far as head to head which is better Bosch vs Festool rail. Can’t comment there. Never seen the Bosch rail. I have heard that the Bosch (mafell) makes a nice rail: aero fix, double clamps underside, better alignment with random tracks. Part of the appeal of the Festool is the use of an mft and the rail clamping in singularly into a 20mm bench hole. Most of the time I just drop the track on the stock and go. At the end of the day can I make a straight cut on the Festool system. As far as running a calibrated cut with a grinder I’ve only had one situation, but overall I’m pretty good freehand.

So I guess we can nitpick this or that with Festool. Like you can with Tesla - I don’t own one and never would? But out of the vast assortment of tools FT makes it’s a winner. Mafell does make some very ,very good tools. The two companies have different focuses and market segments.

You’re certainly entitled to your own professional opinion and your experiences obviously differs from mine. I think everyone is fairly objective on FOG so. Yah, maybe that attachment (point) falls short on the ag 125 

I agree in part about the Festool saw and the rail, it does take a bit of finesse and ability to get the desired results, but it is achievable.  You need to tighten down the cams for the track and back them off ever so slightly.  I do find depending on how you hold, apply pressure and move the saw linearly during the cut you can introduce some variance. It takes a steady hand, sharp blade and patience to let the saw cut the material. It’s not a worm drive Skillsaw Mag77 where you can shove the blade in Willy Nilly, drive into a DF stud or slap a demo blade on and reduce the pile into firewood.

 

[periquito]

I agree with you, the Festool DSC-AG 125 is a fudge.

It is very simple, for its quality the price is exorbitant, its price is around € 400 and manufactured in the Czech Republic, a country with a salary 3.5 times less than Germany ... Someone is making a lot of money.

Now the Mafell MT 55 is known for being the best plunge saw in the world, it fits better than the AG125 on Festool rails.

I think I said it clearly, the problem is in the shape of the channel where the tool fits, it is too large, too much surface, more precision is more friction. The system cannot be easily changed to ensure compatibility with your tools.

Mafell / Bosch opted for a smaller guide channel with less surface area, more precision can be achieved without increasing friction to intolerable limits.

Many things have been discussed in this thread about the advantages of one system or the other. I have both systems and in general I agree with most of what has been said but nobody had talked about the precision of guidance, it is superior with the Mafell / Bosch rails

I have two Festool rails one FS 1400/2 and another FS 1400/2-LR 32

Theoretically, the only difference between both rails are the holes for the LR32 system, but the reality is that with the same configuration there is more slip on the FS 1400/2-LR 32 guide.

Both guides have little use but it is visually appreciated that the surface of both is not the same. This causes that when joining both pieces the guidance is different in both pieces, in the FS 1400/2 it costs more to advance than in the FS 1400/2-LR 32

Festool must improve their products in general, you can see that they are very concerned about selling and making money but they are neglecting some important details. Confidence is hard to win but it is lost quickly, I am beginning to look at Festool in a different way, with a magnifying glass.

 

[Cheese]

The DSC sled has its own wheels and does not really need a rail to work, the loss of already-low depth of cut to a ludicrous 20mm on rail is another reason.

Just curious, are you referring to this item the DCC-AG 125?

[attachimg=1]

 

[Svar]

Mafell / Bosch opted for a smaller guide channel with less surface area, more precision can be achieved without increasing friction to intolerable limits.

The surface (contact) area between rail and saw in Festool system is actually smaller. Saw only touches the rail on two plastic strips and 4 points inside the channel. All contact points are between anodized aluminum and plastic.
In Mafell/Bosch the contact area is along the entire machined channel, and the contact is between anodized aluminum and bare aluminum. Mechanically it is more similar to the old Festool ATF55.
In my experience Festool slides with less effort.

Theoretically, the only difference between both rails are the holes for the LR32 system, but the reality is that with the same configuration there is more slip on the FS 1400/2-LR 32 guide.
Both guides have little use but it is visually appreciated that the surface of both is not the same. This causes that when joining both pieces the guidance is different in both pieces, in the FS 1400/2 it costs more to advance than in the FS 1400/2-LR 32

The contact surface of both (LR32 and regular rail) is the same. They are identical extrusions. The reason you experience more friction on one is because the guide rib on it is slightly wider than the other. It shouldn't be, but it happens on rare occasions (poor quality control?). When you adjust your saw to one rail, it may be too tight when you move to the other. My rails happen to be all the same, but this variation has been reported by few people on this forum.
On Mafell/Bosch rail the guide rib is thin, and it is probably easier to manufacture it having consistent width.

 

[kikunak]

I was choosing between Festool HK 85 and Mafell KSS 80. It was necessary to wait for Festool (in Russia) and I decided to buy Mafell Kss 80.
I think I had made a mistake.
Mafell is more expensive as Festool, so I expected, that it will be precise as Festool and more durable.

There is a very little gap between the bottom of the saw and the rail (on any saw). On Mafell you can do nothing. And on Festool HK 85 you can turn the screws on the bottom to compensate the gap.
It is not a problem in timber framing, but it's a problem in cabinetmaking. I think the saw has a little mistake due to the gap. So Mafell is not so precise as Festool.

How do you think, is it possible to do anything?

 

[Lbob131]

All  festool track  saws  and  many other track  saws  have  the  facility  to  tighten the  groove  in  the base  slightly  to  compensate  for  any slight  movement.
I own  the HK 85  and it  has  this  facility.

I'd be  surprised  if the  Mafell KSS80 does  not have  this  facility.

Im sure  the Mafell  owners  will be  along  shortly  to explain how  its  achieved.

 

[Cheese]

I'd be  surprised  if the  Mafell KSS80 does  not have  this  facility.

I'd also be surprised if the Mafell is not adjustable. Here's the bottom of a MT 55. In the 1st photo the long black adjuster is in the neutral position.

[attachimg=1]

In the 2nd photo the black adjuster has been moved and it adjusts the width of the Mafell rail slot in the top position while it adjusts the width of the Festool slot in the bottom position. Pretty slick except if you swap between tracks frequently.  [sad]

[attachimg=2]