Festool marketing -Is there a problem?

[Stephen B]

Festool Marketing  to three broad categories of Festool User

Looking at photographs of attendance at woodwork shows and demonstrations in Australia, UK and North America in recent months one could get the impression that many Festool users are post 50 if not 60 years of age. My impression is that these men (I have not seen many women) are either retired from other professions and woodworking is now a major interest, are semi retired wood workers, trade and crafts persons , or are managers owners of building related companies.

Reading the FOG reinforces this view,  but also introduces a second category of user, the mid career craft person, cabinet maker, carpenter, finisher and other trades person who is highly skilled and at near the peek of their game. As one of them quotes, 'the Makitas, Dewalts are feeling lonely in the cupboard.' Also in this group are business owners and skilled hobbyist/DIY.

Both of these broad category groups appreciate the quality and design of Festool products, and find increased productivity and pleasure in their use. You will generally find both these categories of customer in a Festool store, at least I do.

The third category of potential customer/user seems to be missing. The apprentice or trades person in their formative years who only know of Metabo, Dewalt or Makita, or the young new home owner who seeks 'rubbish brands' at the local hardware/big box store and might occasionally 'spend up big' on a Makita because it is on special. Does this category even know Festool exists?  Or, 'oh yes they are the tools only the boss uses'. Two apprentices I know had never heard of Festool until I discussed a purchase.

With experience (or age)  some of this third category will begin to see the benefits of high end brands such as Festool. But perhaps Festool needs to encourage this through (if it does not already) incentive schemes for apprentices. To my knowledge there are no such incentives or schemes in Australia.

Your thoughts?

PS. I am definitely somewhere in the first category.

 

[peter halle]

IMO this is an interesting question / observation / post.

I can't wait to see the responses.  This topic is near and dear to my heart even though I am not involved with Festool Marketing (unless you consider being a Moderator here as being part of marketing Festool).

I know what I will be thinking about today.

Peter

 

[Paul G]

Seems like your 3rd category is mostly folks without the resources to pay premium prices for premium tools. I've done a lot with so called rubbish tools, still do.

 

[leakyroof]

Unless you poll or conduct marketing among up and coming young buyers, you might not get an accurate idea of just what they know and think of Festool.
Let's also examine the age thing as you noticed it, because it is a MUCH broader problem if you look at it another way.
Wood working is greatly supported by older folks here in the US, and they spend money each month and year on it.
The view that you saw at the wood working shows mimics the same here in the US, that is, a lot of older people, but always damn few young ones are going to these shows. If you expand the problem of literally a dying buyers market[ hey, we can't keep living forever and buying tools as well!   [wink]] for the regular wood working machine and tool manufs. and then include Festool, Makita and others, you can see that if you can't get someone who's young interested in tools of any kind, and any price range, all the manufs. are in trouble in the long run.  
Well, maybe not Kev down in Australia, he just MIGHT live forever so he can enjoy all his Green Machines.. [big grin]
I've said for while now, that it's much easier to put a Video Game Controller in a young guy's or woman's hand, than a hand tool, or other types of toosl that when I was young, would have been of interest to not only me but most of my peers.
I've run into older woodworkers, some of whom are professionals and have kids that have no interest in what their parents are doing on a daily basis with making furniture at a skill level I envy.
So, not only is this a problem for Festool, but in my opinion, tool and machinery makers of many kinds. The price is just one barrier.
 

 

[Kev]

This sort of thing ...

http://festool4schools.com.au

... is where I'd like to see more activity.

Anyway, yes - there is a marketing problem ... but more so, there's a problem with the price of entry (I'm not blaming Festool here, any premium tool can be out of reach for apprentice tradespeople and those with limited funds).

 

[JeromeM]

Seems like your 3rd category is mostly folks without the resources to pay premium prices for premium tools. I've done a lot with so called rubbish tools, still do.

I'm not sure that that is true. I was taught to get good tools, and to take care of them and have done so. I still use the Elu circular saw and router in their custom built table they are still going strong at about 38 years old each. I also have an inca band saw of about the same age. And since good tools live a bit longer than dog years that makes them centenarians at least.

If festool products had been around then I would have invested in them. It is the poor education that let's people think that you can get cheep and good.

Improve the education teach the benifit of buying good and looking after the tools and you might even get most trades people to respect their tools.

I feel that it's education all the way. Advertising isn't bad but education is better.

 

[Kev]

Unless you poll or conduct marketing among up and coming young buyers, you might not get an accurate idea of just what they know and think of Festool.
Let's also examine the age thing as you noticed it, because it is a MUCH broader problem if you look at it another way.
Wood working is greatly supported by older folks here in the US, and they spend money each month and year on it.
The view that you saw at the wood working shows mimics the same here in the US, that is, a lot of older people, but always darn few young ones are going to these shows. If you expand the problem of literally a dying buyers market[ hey, we can't keep living forever and buying tools as well!   [wink]] for the regular wood working machine and tool manufs. and then include Festool, Makita and others, you can see that if you can't get someone who's young interested in tools of any kind, and any price range, all the manufs. are in trouble in the long run.  
Well, maybe not Kev down in Australia, he just MIGHT live forever so he can enjoy all his Green Machines.. [big grin]
I've said for while now, that it's much easier to put a Video Game Controller in a young guy's or woman's hand, than a hand tool, or other types of toosl that when I was young, would have been of interest to not only me but most of my peers.
I've run into older woodworkers, some of whom are professionals and have kids that have no interest in what their parents are doing on a daily basis with making furniture at a skill level I envy.
So, not only is this a problem for Festool, but in my opinion, tool and machinery makers of many kinds. The price is just one barrier.
 

LoL - I'll need to live forever if I have any hope of some free time to play with my tools [wink]

My son Miles is 18 and he really engages with me if we tackle a woodworking project ... it's my fault I don't have enough spare time and he ends up playing grand theft auto or similar!

(I need to fix that - but the coming months only look to be getting worse instead of better).

I don't think woodworking shows or tool expos are particularly well targeted to the young or the "new potentials". I'd never be able to get Miles to come to one.

 

[Paul G]

Seems like your 3rd category is mostly folks without the resources to pay premium prices for premium tools. I've done a lot with so called rubbish tools, still do.

I'm not sure that that is true. I was taught to get good tools, and to take care of them and have done so. I still use the Elu circular saw and router in their custom built table they are still going strong at about 38 years old each. I also have an inca band saw of about the same age. And since good tools live a bit longer than dog years that makes them centenarians at least.

If festool products had been around then I would have invested in them. It is the poor education that let's people think that you can get cheep and good.

Improve the education teach the benifit of buying good and looking after the tools and you might even get most trades people to respect their tools.

I feel that it's education all the way. Advertising isn't bad but education is better.

when we bought our first home about 15 years ago we had a total of about $5,000 left to fix things up enough to occupy. That included getting tools since I had few living in the apartment.  Had to scrape and smooth all ceilings, paint everything inside and out, buy oven, fridge, dishwasher, microwave, replace kitchen sink and faucets, replace flooring, replace 3 bathroom vanities/faucets/toilets, add window coverings, etc. Among tools needed were a circular saw, sander, vac, screw gun and router. If I went Festool on just those tools alone it would have blown 1/2 my meager budget and not accomplished the work needed in the time I had to get it done. So from my personal experience and also the experience of many of our like minded cash strapped first time home buying friends, the idea of spending $600 on a circular saw, $300 on a sander, $500 on a router, $600 on a vac and $400 on a drill wouldn't even cross our minds no matter how slick the marketing.

 

[JeromeM]

Seems like your 3rd category is mostly folks without the resources to pay premium prices for premium tools. I've done a lot with so called rubbish tools, still do.

I'm not sure that that is true. I was taught to get good tools, and to take care of them and have done so. I still use the Elu circular saw and router in their custom built table they are still going strong at about 38 years old each. I also have an inca band saw of about the same age. And since good tools live a bit longer than dog years that makes them centenarians at least.

If festool products had been around then I would have invested in them. It is the poor education that let's people think that you can get cheep and good.

Improve the education teach the benifit of buying good and looking after the tools and you might even get most trades people to respect their tools.

I feel that it's education all the way. Advertising isn't bad but education is better.

when we bought our first home about 15 years ago we had a total of about $5,000 left to fix things up enough to occupy. That included getting tools since I had few living in the apartment.  Had to scrape and smooth all ceilings, paint everything inside and out, buy oven, fridge, dishwasher, microwave, replace kitchen sink and faucets, replace flooring, replace 3 bathroom vanities/faucets/toilets, add window coverings, etc. Among tools needed were a circular saw, sander, vac, screw gun and router. If I went Festool on just those tools alone it would have blown 1/2 my meager budget and not accomplished the work needed in the time I had to get it done. So from my personal experience and also the experience of many of our like minded cash strapped first time home buying friends, the idea of spending $600 on a circular saw, $300 on a sander, $500 on a router, $600 on a vac and $400 on a drill wouldn't even cross our minds no matter how slick the marketing.

There again its education. For the first 2 years in my first place I had no carpet as I couldn't afford a good one so I had building paper on the floor. My appliances were used as was all the furniture. Things got better as I got higher wages. But I either had old used or, when I could afford it good quality new.

You got what you could afford as you could afford it. No HP just save and when you can get good quality then buy. Year end sales helped as did my local auction house.

It's the instant gratification culture and the "we deserve everything now" syndrome that's the problem.

Of course you couldn't afford the tools at that time but you coul rent the ones you needed for a short time and build up as money got more easy.

 

[GarryMartin]

Firmly in the skilled hobbyist/DIY category myself.  [big grin]

I buy Festool because I appreciate quality in both the tools I use and the output I produce. I'm lucky that my "real" job affords me the *capital* to do this, and I think this is an important point.

I researched Festool extensively before my first dip in the green waters. What I found was that the resale value of Festool was *significantly* higher than other comparable and lesser brands, and that there was a ready market for second hand tools, especially little used and in good condition. So when I pulled the trigger on a substantial Festool purchase this year, the initial capital outlay was expensive, but the whole-life costs are comparable to stocking up with Dewalt, Makita or similar.

This leads me to an interesting point for the underserved third category that may well want and desire the tools, but cannot maybe afford them in terms of *capital* outlay.

The car and van industry has long provided effective lease purchase schemes based on the residual value over a particular period. Perhaps Festool should consider something similar for tool leases, building in their excellent service options into the lifetime costs, and tailor it for budding apprentices in various trades.

Then again, maybe they already do but the marketing hasn't made it to me...  [wink]

 

[barnowl]

My two cents...for what it's worth.

Festool's brilliance is portability of finely designed and built tools and systems that center around cleanliness and dust collecting.

The rail system negates the need for a jobsite table saw.

The router system offers versatility on the jobsite.

All easily portable.

Yet, contractors that I see, with few exceptions, just won't spend the money.

They buy lumber at Home Depot, and pick up a DeWalt circular saw on the way out.

The full service stores that offer the Festool line, like WoodCraft, etc, cater to a more craft oriented clientele.

 

[Sparktrician]

I'm going to suggest that there's a fourth category - those who have used junk tools for many years as those were most affordable, but then had the opportunity to discover and adopt top-end tools (like Festool) and who, based on their experience with junk tools, now appreciate the quality of the system and the results from using the top-end tools, not to mention the relative durability of the top-end tools and the superior customer service of organizations like Festool.  Just a thought...  

 

[Stone Message]

Is there a problem?

No, I have bought some after a couple of months of detailed market research.

Festool tools have changed the way I do my woodwork for the better.

A scheme to help youngsters to buy would be a great help but at that stage of their careers they will never afford the payments. Maybe they could lease them or have special deals on the kit that gets returned.

Peter

 

[Paul G]

Seems like your 3rd category is mostly folks without the resources to pay premium prices for premium tools. I've done a lot with so called rubbish tools, still do.

I'm not sure that that is true. I was taught to get good tools, and to take care of them and have done so. I still use the Elu circular saw and router in their custom built table they are still going strong at about 38 years old each. I also have an inca band saw of about the same age. And since good tools live a bit longer than dog years that makes them centenarians at least.

If festool products had been around then I would have invested in them. It is the poor education that let's people think that you can get cheep and good.

Improve the education teach the benifit of buying good and looking after the tools and you might even get most trades people to respect their tools.

I feel that it's education all the way. Advertising isn't bad but education is better.

when we bought our first home about 15 years ago we had a total of about $5,000 left to fix things up enough to occupy. That included getting tools since I had few living in the apartment.  Had to scrape and smooth all ceilings, paint everything inside and out, buy oven, fridge, dishwasher, microwave, replace kitchen sink and faucets, replace flooring, replace 3 bathroom vanities/faucets/toilets, add window coverings, etc. Among tools needed were a circular saw, sander, vac, screw gun and router. If I went Festool on just those tools alone it would have blown 1/2 my meager budget and not accomplished the work needed in the time I had to get it done. So from my personal experience and also the experience of many of our like minded cash strapped first time home buying friends, the idea of spending $600 on a circular saw, $300 on a sander, $500 on a router, $600 on a vac and $400 on a drill wouldn't even cross our minds no matter how slick the marketing.

There again its education. For the first 2 years in my first place I had no carpet as I couldn't afford a good one so I had building paper on the floor. My appliances were used as was all the furniture. Things got better as I got higher wages. But I either had old used or, when I could afford it good quality new.

You got what you could afford as you could afford it. No HP just save and when you can get good quality then buy. Year end sales helped as did my local auction house.

It's the instant gratification culture and the "we deserve everything now" syndrome that's the problem.

Of course you couldn't afford the tools at that time but you coul rent the ones you needed for a short time and build up as money got more easy.

Let's see, I'm uneducated and am immersed in the instant gratification culture because I didn't buy festool and didn't live on splintery plywood floors for two years? If only we had forgone the solid gold sinks bought at full retail I could have bought Festool instead. Year end sales, closeouts, garage sales, auctions and second hand stores, dang I wish I would have thought of that!  :  You're being terribly presumptuous about me and the condition of the home we bought. It's probably time for me to exit this thread before I say something I regret.

 

[72anthony]

In the U.S. the hand tools sold via truck, Snap-on, Matco, and Mac all offer student discounts for people enrolled in automotive tech programs. They also offer lines of credit with weekly payments. All of this is done to introduce the young mechanic to the quality tools and service of the premium brands.

Not sure how well that would in the U.S. with woodworking and such as I don't think there are many formal schools or apprenticeship programs.

Anthony

 

[greg mann]

Seems like your 3rd category is mostly folks without the resources to pay premium prices for premium tools. I've done a lot with so called rubbish tools, still do.

I'm not sure that that is true. I was taught to get good tools, and to take care of them and have done so. I still use the Elu circular saw and router in their custom built table they are still going strong at about 38 years old each. I also have an inca band saw of about the same age. And since good tools live a bit longer than dog years that makes them centenarians at least.

If festool products had been around then I would have invested in them. It is the poor education that let's people think that you can get cheep and good.

Improve the education teach the benifit of buying good and looking after the tools and you might even get most trades people to respect their tools.

I feel that it's education all the way. Advertising isn't bad but education is better.

when we bought our first home about 15 years ago we had a total of about $5,000 left to fix things up enough to occupy. That included getting tools since I had few living in the apartment.  Had to scrape and smooth all ceilings, paint everything inside and out, buy oven, fridge, dishwasher, microwave, replace kitchen sink and faucets, replace flooring, replace 3 bathroom vanities/faucets/toilets, add window coverings, etc. Among tools needed were a circular saw, sander, vac, screw gun and router. If I went Festool on just those tools alone it would have blown 1/2 my meager budget and not accomplished the work needed in the time I had to get it done. So from my personal experience and also the experience of many of our like minded cash strapped first time home buying friends, the idea of spending $600 on a circular saw, $300 on a sander, $500 on a router, $600 on a vac and $400 on a drill wouldn't even cross our minds no matter how slick the marketing.

There again its education. For the first 2 years in my first place I had no carpet as I couldn't afford a good one so I had building paper on the floor. My appliances were used as was all the furniture. Things got better as I got higher wages. But I either had old used or, when I could afford it good quality new.

You got what you could afford as you could afford it. No HP just save and when you can get good quality then buy. Year end sales helped as did my local auction house.

It's the instant gratification culture and the "we deserve everything now" syndrome that's the problem.

Of course you couldn't afford the tools at that time but you coul rent the ones you needed for a short time and build up as money got more easy.

Let's see, I'm uneducated and am immersed in the instant gratification culture because I didn't buy festool and didn't live on splintery plywood floors for two years? If only we had forgone the solid gold sinks bought at full retail I could have bought Festool instead. Year end sales, closeouts, garage sales, auctions and second hand stores, dang I wish I would have thought of that!  :  You're being terribly presumptuous about me and the condition of the home we bought. It's probably time for me to exit this thread before I say something I regret.

I didn't think Jerome was necessarily targeting you, Paul. I felt he was still writing in general terms. We all arrived here through wide and varying circumstances. I think his general point was that it takes a while for many (most?) folks to learn the value of quality, in whatever venue or endeavor. Sure, there are some of us who learn it early; in my case from a friends father who used the very best mechanic's tools and was still upgrading his chain saws in his eighties. There is a difference between knowing the existence of quality tools but still not being able to buy accordingly, at a certain point in time, because of financial constraints. "Someday, I will be able to get what I want in tools because I have what I need in other essentials."

For me, I have spent my career searching out the best and most up-to-date metalcutting tools; drills, taps, endmills, facemills, etc. The search has also resulted in initiating the design of many special, job specific tools, somewhat analogous to dedicated jigs and fixture in the woodworking world. When my interest in woodworking evolved I wound up using the same intellectual muscles to find high quality tools. The point is:  We all arrive here in various manner but there are general similarities within that journey which manifest themselves most often after we have collected some of life's wisdom. The age at which we gain it may vary greatly and it should probably also be recognized that many folks never get there.

I do believe a certain percentage of those younger folks will not get the woodworking bug until they are older, maybe after children are raised and time and money are avilable. That is a path many of us have taken and there is no reason to believe it won't continue to happen. I am willing to bet Festool recognizes they will usually sell to an older crowd.  

 

[Valleywood]

Anecdotal stuff:   Last week I was at a hotel with a collection of ww machine producers.  During lunch I got a chance to chat with them.   They are very much aware of the problem, and according to them, the pie is shrinking steadily.  Their customers are greying.    Remember, they were there for trade stuff and were not selling anything, so clearly they recognize the problem.

That said, however, the sword has two edges.  True, old heads are the ones most likely to buy quality, but then, in the USA, the baby boomers are a huge group.  There are more and more grey heads coming to market !  That part of the problem is its own solution.  

Another part of the problem is IKEA.  Folks today have lost interest in "real wood".  And who in their right mind would get into a hobby working with sawdust boards?  Fake wood has become a disease, and we have to let this thing run its course.

Another part of the problem is we.   We are perceived by most folks not drinking green  as "elitist"  "folks with more money than sense", etc.   And I suspect that in many cases, we deserve the reputation.  I think we're snobs.  Nice snobs, but still . ..     Last week I got my Kapex from Bob Marino.   My stuff stays in the shop, so I am not stuck with the Festool stand.   I saw and ordered the Makita mitre saw stand.  It's a beast and I think will be perfect for a shop.   When I told the salesman what I was doing he laughed and said, "You know, when you take that Festool saw and put it on our stand there will probably be an explosion!   You're the first person I've ever known who would put Festool with anything else."    Now he was just having fun, but his point was well taken.  We need to chill and educate.  More educating and less preaching, methinks.  

Our other tactic has to be to know how to blunt the "Oh, yeah?"  crowd.  You know the ones.  They're on every ww chat board on earth.   "The skilled craftsman can do more with a pocket knife than you can do with all your expensive tools!"   We need to acknowledge he's right and then point out  that everyone benefits from quality.  Expert, novice, we all do better with Festool (or other quality tools) and that's the name of the game.   There are a thousand folks on this board who are superior craftsmen to me.  But I'm not in a competition.   I'm in a relaxation.  To be zoned in the shop is pure joy has only one activity that is superior.  But with clothes on?  This is it, baby !  

I'll offer one final thought.   My wife spins.  You know, wool, cotton, etc.  Thirty years ago, spinning wheels were garbage.  You couldn't find a decent spinning wheel to save your soul.  Today there are countless top-flight spinning wheels that are gorgeous pieces of work and work smooth as buttermilk.  Spinning has become fashionable again.  This stuff goes in cycles.  

Festool I'll bet big bucks knows all about this problem.  They'll deal with it.   For us this is a living or a hobby.  For them it's a business.  They may be facing a smaller overall pie, but I get they're grabbing bigger pieces of it!

Now I gotta go buy a new roto-tiller.               [smile]

 

[sancho57]

Well reading what the Op is asking or what his observations are. I can speak only from what I have observed. In the UK I have met a few tradesmen, they do remodeling and bespoke cabinet work they use festools.

Ive gone to other pro woodworking / construction, there are many festool users there as well. JLC for example has festool direct as part of their show. Gary Katz and Mike Sloggatt have a road show that one has to make reservations in advanced and have waiting list to be able to attend, they demo festools.

Plus we have some very good craftsman on this site who use festools, Dave Reinhold, Brice Burrell, Kreg McMahon, Darcy , Green Fever, JMB Johnny Round Boy on and on.

So I would be willing to say that there are quite a few trades men who use and rely on festools.

Are they for everyone?

No,  the same as hobby woodworkers. Everyone has different taste.

Because  as we all know festool though excellent tools have a different approach to wood working.

As for pros some just dont understand the advantage festools have they only look at price but when presented with the facts of the advantage of festools they reach in their pockets and buy no questions asked.

A recent example happened this weekend at the D&M woodworking show here in the UK.

I was  at the festool booth outside the building (there were 2 one inside and one out).

A guy who said he was a kitchen installer was talking to John Street about routers, the usual question , How much are they and which one will meet my needs.

John said the 1400 and he asked the price. When John gave him the price he had the usual shocked expression on his face.

So I got involved and asked him if he works inside clients homes?

He said yes.

I told him about Fat Roman demonstrating the Kapex on his kitchen table causing no dust  and told the guy that festools are pretty much dustless.

He said dustless in disbelief, I asked John to demonstrate the 1400.

So He took a 1400 with a 1/2" straight bit into a counter top they had for demonstrating the tools

John plunged it in the counter top about 3/4 of a inch and made a cut about 4" long.

I said , how much dust do you see?

He asked me a question about does he need a CT, I told him no I started out using a shop vac. I thought He would get one later after he drinks the kool aid.

He asked john where can he pay for the 1400. john said the inside booth.

He walked t the inside booth and I presume he bought one.

So Doing my own "market research" I think there are plenty of pros that use festools. The ones that dont will after they see the advantage of them.

I do think that price is a turn off for alot of pros. But they dont really understand the festools and their advantage.

Thats my Opinion and Im sticking to it.

 

[sancho57]

Unless you poll or conduct marketing among up and coming young buyers, you might not get an accurate idea of just what they know and think of Festool.
Let's also examine the age thing as you noticed it, because it is a MUCH broader problem if you look at it another way.
Wood working is greatly supported by older folks here in the US, and they spend money each month and year on it.
The view that you saw at the wood working shows mimics the same here in the US, that is, a lot of older people, but always darn few young ones are going to these shows. If you expand the problem of literally a dying buyers market[ hey, we can't keep living forever and buying tools as well!   [wink]] for the regular wood working machine and tool manufs. and then include Festool, Makita and others, you can see that if you can't get someone who's young interested in tools of any kind, and any price range, all the manufs. are in trouble in the long run.  
Well, maybe not Kev down in Australia, he just MIGHT live forever so he can enjoy all his Green Machines.. [big grin]
I've said for while now, that it's much easier to put a Video Game Controller in a young guy's or woman's hand, than a hand tool, or other types of toosl that when I was young, would have been of interest to not only me but most of my peers.
I've run into older woodworkers, some of whom are professionals and have kids that have no interest in what their parents are doing on a daily basis with making furniture at a skill level I envy.
So, not only is this a problem for Festool, but in my opinion, tool and machinery makers of many kinds. The price is just one barrier.
 

LoL - I'll need to live forever if I have any hope of some free time to play with my tools [wink]

My son Miles is 18 and he really engages with me if we tackle a woodworking project ... it's my fault I don't have enough spare time and he ends up playing grand theft auto or similar!

(I need to fix that - but the coming months only look to be getting worse instead of better).

I don't think woodworking shows or tool expos are particularly well targeted to the young or the "new potentials". I'd never be able to get Miles to come to one.

Kev, I think you can spend a weekend counting your systainers

 

[SittingElf]

This does NOT work for me....

I am 57 years old.

I feel like i'm about 35 (Though my body doesn't [huh])

I have a six year old son. My only child.

My wife tells all who will listen that she has TWO six year old's living in the house. [eek]

Now.....where do I fall? [big grin]