Festool quality?

[mcooley]

Curious to hear people's general impressions on the quality of Festool products over the past 10 years or so? Has the quality remained steady or do some feel it is declining? I don't really have an opinion either way. But I will say part of me is under the impression that the quality of the tools has ebbed and flowed over generations. It seems under moderate use the tools may be performing at one level but under more extreme conditions like general contracting the tools may be at a different level? So I guess with that I am suggesting "quality" is somewhat relative depending on the type of use. That said it seems every power tool ought to be engineered and designed for rough constant abuse. Maybe for some the verdict is still out on Festool in this regard, or, maybe all of this is clear as day to others? 

 

[awil66]

I use my tools hard in a contractor setting and it shows. Kapex, Rotex 150, ts55 have a lot of hours on them and certainly don't look pristine. You really don't have to baby them. My newest is an of1400 last spring and the only thing it didn't like was running a lock miter on the edge of a 3/4" plywood sheet. Motor electronics shut it down. But that is really pushing it. Unfortunately you can't run a lock miter in successive passes.
Once it cooled down and I took a slower feed rate all was good.
I have not thought that quality has declined at all.

 

[peter halle]

Personally I don't feel that quality of the tools has declined.  Do you read about more issues here now?  Yes.  There will always be a percentage of tools that go bad and the more tools you have out in circulation will increase those numbers even if the percentage of failures is the same or lower than what it once was.

Additionally because the popularity of this site there is more information out there than before and therefore more conversations about tools.

When I first met Christian and talked about the tools he told me to not treat my tools as boutique tools and use them and use them hard.  I have followed that advice and have treated mine as instruments designed to earn a living.  So far no tool repairs in my history.

Peter

 

[leakyroof]

I use tools of all different sorts of brands every day. Cordless , electric and pneumatic.  I don't experience failures with any of them , but I almost never buy lower level quality either. I've owned Festool products since 2004.  I'm like Peter in that I've never had to send one in for repair.  I wore out the outlet on my CT-22 Vac and Festool sent a new style version to me in the mail. That's my extent of Festool failure, but again, even with every day use, I never seem to break anyone's tools..
If they're slipping in Quality, I haven't seen it.

 

[Holmz]

Well it depends on how you define quality, which you mentioned.
There is the design / R&D / engineering.
Then there is the push to reduce manufacturing costs. So quality of the end product has all the materials and manufacturing wound up in it as well as the basic design.

The quality and design of the other manufactures tools has been going both ways. Snap-on seems to have declined, or at least they have a blue version that is not top shelf.
And then other woodwork power tools have gained a lot on the dust collection front. This to my mind somewhat narrows the gap which existed in the past.

I did have to send in my CT26 but it was not too much of a drama.

 

[Cheese]

Snap-on seems to have declined, or at least they have a blue version that is not top shelf.

The Blue Point variation has been around for at least the last 50 years, possibly even longer than that. If memory serves me correctly, the original Blue Point tools were specifically mechanic hand tools struck with a hammer, think cold chisels and punches. As such, they ONLY had a 5 year warranty as opposed to a lifetime warranty.

I own both variants and other than the finishing being absolutely beautiful on a Snap-on tool while being just very nice on a Blue Point tool, there is no difference in functional quality.

I also think that Festool quality has not significantly changed over the years. I'm happy with and will continue to purchase all 3 brands of tools.

 

[Kev]

I think Festool's quality is generally pretty good, but some of their obvious outside supplier bits and pieces are not so good.

KAPEX-gate has tarnished the quality image a fair bit, along with CARVEX issues and the TS55REQ recalls.

Festool are certainly premium tools and you pay accordingly, but if you set your expectations too high you're likely to be dissapointed.

 

[charley1968]

I'd have to say yes, i do feel that FT quality has lessend. But that might well be due to the fact that i'm hanging out in the forum too much, as @PeterHalle has said. One reads more about failures, hence my impression. That said: i bought an old AP 85 circ saw recently and compared it to the HK 85 and the older saw looks and feels like it's build better, more hefty..

 

[bobfog]

I'd say it is hit and miss.

Tools like the Domino 500 & XL, the ETS EC sanders, the Rotex and the EHL planers feel really solid. Others feel acceptable.

But yesterday I had a little play with the KS 60 at my local Axminster and I found it to be cheap looking and feeling. The housing and handle felt hollow and cheap. The rails finish on the rails looked a bit bright and shiny like cheap Chinese mass production. The feel of the switch was significantly less positive and more flimsy feeling than a £200 Dewalt next to it. I wondered given it is only ~ 4KG lighter than the Kapex 120, where the comparative  extra weight had gone, given it felt so cheap.

 

[kevinculle]

Snap-on seems to have declined, or at least they have a blue version that is not top shelf.

The Blue Point variation has been around for at least the last 50 years, possibly even longer than that.

My Dad earned his living as a mechanic in the late 1930s...I have some of his tools including both Snap-on and some Blue Points so that takes it back at least 80-ish years.

 

[Cheese]

My Dad earned his living as a mechanic in the late 1930s...I have some of his tools including both Snap-on and some Blue Points so that takes it back at least 80-ish years.

Thanks for that... [smile]...I just remember buying a couple of cold chisels from the Snap-on truck when I was about 18 and I was surprised to see the Blue Point moniker on them at the time.

 

[Paul G]

That said it seems every power tool ought to be engineered and designed for rough constant abuse.

Are you speaking of just Festool here?

 

[PreferrablyWood]

I have a heavy duty sander from Festool RS 300 EQ. It feels very solid, it was relatively more expensive than the lighter newer version sanders at the time. It feels like it will last a long time. Newer tools are making use of advances in plastics metal, etc so they feel lighter, that might make them seem less well built. But in actual use the new tools work as well or better than older versions. Maybe som of the older tools will last longer, but for my usage the lifetime of my present newer tools is likely just fine. Also having a variety of tools means I don't have to use the wrong tool for the job..

 

[leakyroof]

Snap-on seems to have declined, or at least they have a blue version that is not top shelf.

The Blue Point variation has been around for at least the last 50 years, possibly even longer than that. If memory serves me correctly, the original Blue Point tools were specifically mechanic hand tools struck with a hammer, think cold chisels and punches. As such, they ONLY had a 5 year warranty as opposed to a lifetime warranty.

I own both variants and other than the finishing being absolutely beautiful on a Snap-on tool while being just very nice on a Blue Point tool, there is no difference in functional quality.

I also think that Festool quality has not significantly changed over the years. I'm happy with and will continue to purchase all 3 brands of tools.

. Blue Point label is also used by Snap- On when they don't make the tool but are buying it from someone else. Side by side wrench comparisons often show lower cost construction with thicker wrench bodies than a Snap- On wrench and a less polished finish as well. Performance wise, they have held up just fine for me since the mid '80s when I bought a set from Snap-On just starting out as a Tech.
Another interesting comparison is the Industrial Finish Tools that Snap-On offers where a traditional chrome finish is not wanted or needed. That was another way people buying from Snap-On have saved a bit of money when making purchases.

 

[rljatl]

I'd have to say yes, i do feel that FT quality has lessend. But that might well be due to the fact that i'm hanging out in the forum too much, as @PeterHalle has said. One reads more about failures, hence my impression. That said: i bought an old AP 85 circ saw recently and compared it to the HK 85 and the older saw looks and feels like it's build better, more hefty..

Don't let the weight fool you.  Microwave ovens were extremely heavy when they first appeared on the market.  Now, they are light as a feather.

Lithium batteries are much better than alkaline's.  Lithium's are lighter weight, last longer in use and in long term storage.

Same with the old tube TV's and the new flat screens.  Heavier is not always better quality or necessarily more durable.

 

[charley1968]

Aye, i realize weight doesn't equal quality. And you're right about materials 'evolving'. But, subjectivly, the AP felt to be of a higher quality...

 

[aloysius]

Festo/ol still make some outstanding quality tools:  the Deltex DX93E, the HL850E, BS75E/BS105 & the RS1/RS100 are particular examples of ongoing quality.  Having said that, it's interesting to note these are all 20,30 or even 40 year old designs, made from quality materials in a manner to ensure a long & relatively reliable lifespan.

Interesting because all the "bought in" componentry, such as carbon brushes, bearings, copper, PVC & rubber cabling & windings and undoubtedly some hard & soft metal castings, extrusions and turnings will be from an ever-diminishing suite of "quality" suppliers, many of which have suffered a collateral demise to that of the overall German domestic machine tool industry.  Take the rather poor 3rd party supply of inadequately lightweight 110-115 volt motor windings supplied for their SCMS as an example.

Their superior tools, by contrast have come from older Festo & other 3rd-party designs such as Reich, Mafell, Wap, Kraenzle & others.  Once well admired titans of German industry, many now unfortunately gone the way of the Dodo:  subsumed by competitors or folded.  Quality products that have not required the frequent updates, aesthetic and performance "enhancements" & fiddling that have been deemed necessary for their "lesser" tools.  Some have all but remained totally unchanged (except for their corporate livery) for decades.

Where Festo/ol seems to suffer, especially in comparison to its peers is in an apparent lack of R&D investment and in the glacially slow adoption of necessarily more expensive and albeit riskier new technologies.  It could be very well argued that a technology aversion is more a virtue than a vice (look again at some of those lovely old designs), however innovation seems to be a watchword for many of the company's more "professional" competitors, some of whom are achieving inroads into the company's market share.

Lack of investment in research & development in any technologically-based industry however is harder to forgive.  Some of their newer tools have been in my experience rather "compromised" in overall ergonomic, performance and longevity parameters.  To be charitable, many could've (& damn well should've) been better designed.  Whilst it may please the board of investors & the heirs to the families to reduce these pesky, unproductive overheads, excessive cost cutting in the name of profitability may well lead to the company's demise.  I understand that Tooltechnic is no giant the likes of Robert Bosch, Makita, TTI or Hitachi Koki/Metabo, but this surely must necessitate a greater proportion of overall turnover be dedicated to R&D expenditure.  Isn't that, after all, one of the "reasons" for the higher prices?  A better mousetrap?

From a local Australian perspective, their Antipodean marketing efforts of late have been appalling.  Resale price maintenance is in my opinion a cancer eating the heart out of free enterprise.  I personally find it both arrogant & unethical. There's currently almost an adversarial air about the interrelationship between the importer, retail network & customer.  Price rises come regularly & seemingly without regard to exchange rate fluctuations, and the price disparity between national marketplaces is inequitable & unseemly.  Gutting the previous resale and repair networks hasn't helped either, & further served to sour - or even poison - relationships.  Where's the trust gone these days?

I personally need a better "excuse" for paying up to 500%+ extra for my Festo/ol tooling than mere corporate greed!

 

[JakobProgsch]

An interesting thing to keep in mind when having these "they don't make them like they used to anymore"-conversations is that our opinion about old tools tends to be warped by survivorship bias. Meaning those decade old tools are still around exactly because they are good, while the not so great tools from that same time period have been discarded and forgotten a long time ago. Judging 40 year old tools by the ones that survived a 40 year selection process is going to inflate the apparent quality of tools made back then.

 

[Stephen B]

Festo/ol still make some outstanding quality tools:  the Deltex DX93E . . .  .


From a local Australian perspective, their Antipodean marketing efforts of late have been appalling.  Resale price maintenance is in my opinion a cancer eating the heart out of free enterprise.  I personally find it both arrogant & unethical. There's currently almost an adversarial air about the interrelationship between the importer, retail network & customer.  Price rises come regularly & seemingly without regard to exchange rate fluctuations, and the price disparity between national marketplaces is inequitable & unseemly.  Gutting the previous resale and repair networks hasn't helped either, & further served to sour - or even poison - relationships.  Where's the trust gone these days?

Yes certainly agree that the DX93 is a little gem as a delta sander.

Re Marketing, in addition to your points [member=9481]aloysius[/member] , twice this year on their Facebook page Festool Aust  have foolishly highlighted unsafe work practices to market their tools. The latest, and only last week, was a video of tradie high jinks with a dust extractor hose being waved close to the eyes of their sleeping colleague. After a comment asking whether Festool DE were powerful enough to damage eyes, to their credit Festool Aust removed the post. The first post too was removed after several comments regarding unsafe sanding practices.

Dammit I just wish their tools were rubbish; life and control of my finances would be so much easier!  [big grin]

Are there any Festools I have regretted purchasing? No. But I will admit to some favourites such as the HK55, but all are used.

 

[PreferrablyWood]

Interesting read [member=9481]aloysius[/member] . Seems like the huge distance from australia to germany gives a kind of perspective we who live in the thick of things miss.

I'm not going to contradict your post but I sense that some of what you write might be somewhat off the mark. But by all means keep writing!