Festool skimping on acc quality

[peter halle]

I am sincerely sorry for the controversy that I brought to this post.

Normally when I have an opinion about something that might be controversial I state that I am making that statement as a member versus a moderator.  I did not do that this time and I believe that may have added some fuel to a fire because in retrospect some could read and think that as a moderator I had an issue with the title or the posted information.  That is not the case.

So for the record - I merely tried to state as a member that the title of the post and the content of the post did not match up, in my opinion, as a member.  Any comments or information contained in that post were OK as an opinion of the poster.  As a moderator, at no time was I trying to influence, curtail, or otherwise affect the writings of the poster.  There is nothing wrong with the post.

To FSO:  I am sorry if I have caused issues with my post.  They were not intentional.  Just as you are allowed - and encouraged - to voice your opinion, so am I as a member.  Please continue to voice you thoughts and opinions.

To all the other Foggers - If I post something that irritates or upsets you, or you feel that is uncharacteristic, or is against the spirit of the forum, please feel free to PM me and if you feel necessary send a copy to the administrators.  It is all OK.  Feedback is important.

 

[tms0425]

I use this with the Festool rails & router

Router rail guide..

Does this setup work with the 1400?

 

[chrisrosenb]

I use this with the Festool rails & router

Router rail guide..

Does this setup work with the 1400?

It will work with any router. The router is screwed to a base plate.
The base plate can be ordered pre drilled for a charge or it can be self drilled by the buyer. 

 

[Kevin D.]

Normally when I have an opinion about something that might be controversial I state that I am making that statement as a member versus a moderator.  I did not do that this time and I believe that may have added some fuel to a fire because in retrospect some could read and think that as a moderator I had an issue with the title or the posted information.  That is not the case.

So for the record - I merely tried to state as a member that the title of the post and the content of the post did not match up, in my opinion, as a member.  Any comments or information contained in that post were OK as an opinion of the poster.  As a moderator, at no time was I trying to influence, curtail, or otherwise affect the writings of the poster.  There is nothing wrong with the post.

I've moderated myself in the past.  There was one thing I was told early on....There's no such thing as taking your "Moderator's Cap" off when posting once you are a moderator.  I didn't like that aspect at first, but came to understand exactly what that meant over time.  Whether you like it or not, people looking at your posts will always see you as a moderator, and you must always act in the character of a moderator as well with any post you make.  I guess its kinda like in the military or any hierchally arranged organization.  You can't have the officers sitting in at the enlisted men's poker table and have it truely be a fun and fair game.

I'm not saying any of this to ruffle feathers in any way, just offer my perspective.  I did come to realize the importance of having this constraint imposed on moderators insofar as maimtaining a fair and balanced environment for all participants on a forum.  No matter whichever way you present/disclaim it, you are a moderator, and others will perceive/treat/reply to you accordingly as a moderator.  Always behaving with your moderator's cap on imo is good for the health of the forum.  Groups of people need leadership, and myself, I wouldn't be here if I didn't think much of the leadership here at FOG.  It's a fine place to park my cursor indeed.

 

[morogue]

I lurk a lot and tend not to post too much about the Festool tools themselves. It always seems like there are tons of people ready to give Festool a pass on design deficiencies and sub-par materials, just because of the "system" and most every other manufacturer sucks eggs...
However, I feel compelled to agree with the original poster:
Festool prices should yield sturdier accessories, made from finer materials, with more and easier, finer adjustments. Yes, Festool is usually head and shoulders above the competition, particularly with regard to the machines themselves, but why not build accessories to the level of the tools (somewhere near the level of the Micro Fence)--Festool sure as hell charges enough for them?
Since this post started with router talk--The lr32 system comes to mind... $425!!! I drank the kool-aid and got it, and boy, I feel jipped. Yeah, it works, but the sum of the merely above average parts doesn't add up to premium price of $425, PLUS the $90 for the track, come on, really, REALLY?!?!

 

[AlexThePalex]

It always seems like there are tons of people ready to give Festool a pass on design deficiencies and sub-par materials, just because of the "system" and most every other manufacturer sucks eggs...
However, I feel compelled to agree with the original poster:
.........
Festool prices should yield sturdier accessories, made from finer materials, with more and easier, finer adjustments.

I am also surprised how much people are prepared to give Festool lenience because they are a fan. I do not agree with all points the OP made, for instance plastic can be a fine and strong material if designed correctly. But he definitely has a point somewhere. It may not go for all accessories, but some are certainly not what you'd expect for the exceptional price you pay for it. For the price Festool charges, you can not be contend with less then perfect.

One example I am very disappointed about is the case for drill bits that comes with their wood bits. That thing is pure garbage. Not only is it awkward to open and take the bits in and out, it is also very weakly made. After around 25 times getting bits out the lid simply broke off. In the same week as I bought the Festool set I also bought a concrete set from Bosch. That Bosch set came with a case so sturdy it looks like you can play basketball with it. And opens easily and it's comfortable to take the bits out and put them back in. The drill bits themselves are also of very good quality, made for the hardest concrete.

Now I paid 21 euro for the Bosch set and no less than 46 euro for the Festool set.

And the 'excellent' Festool service? I mailed the Dutch Festool office twice about it and didn't even get an answer. The third time I asked my dealer and they called Festool and got the answer it is not possible to get new casings and they simply expect you to buy a new full set of drills instead.

Finally, I'd like to add there is also a Protool Centrotec set of masonry bits. Costs 44 euros. When I talked to my dealer about the set he explicitly told me never to use it for concrete, only soft stone like bricks or the bits would become dull in seconds. And that for 44 euro, while my 21 euro set of Bosch eats concrete like it's spaghetti. That doesn't sound like quality to me.

[attachthumb=1]

 

[jvsteenb]

When I talked to my dealer about the set he explicitly told me never to use it for concrete, only soft stone like bricks or the bits would become dull in seconds

As much as I agree with lots of what's stated above, I think you must compare apples to apples.
The Protool masonry bits are actually very good bits, they're just not meant or designed to drill concrete - the tip geometry is different.
It's designed to be used in a non-hammering mode, scraping/cutting rather then crushing the material, as a concrete bit is designed to do.
I use the Protool Centrotec Masonry bits a lot, and once the drill is unable to progress with any decent speed, it's time to change plans and bring a hammer drill or the like.
As usefull as it might be, Centrotec is not a hammer system !

Usually the carbide is matched to the type of work. A router bit for instance should have a very high surface hardness to retain it's sharpness but is usually rather brittle as it doesn't have to resist massive impact.
A concrete hammer drill, OTOH, doesn't have to remain sharp - just basic shape retention is good enough - but must be very rugged and somewhat elastic to overcome the massive impact energy.
The Centrotec masonry bits are somewhere in the middle - hard enough to retain the edge ( they have an edge, as opposed to concrete drills ) but not meant for heavy impact - the edge will give and particles will  break out.
You wouldn't skimp on a routerbit for not being able to rout concrete now would you? Nor would you skimp on an SDS drill for performing poorly in wood. Nevertheless, the carbide inserts on the routerbit most probably have a higher surface hardness then the carbide on the SDS drill bit.

As I stated before: I can relate to a lot of the OP's comments.  And to Alex's as well, as I think a lot of the available accessories are overpriced, and they should offer drills and such in systainer-compatible packaging or in a cardboard box - all the attempts in between have been a bit embarrassing. Even the HSS drillbit box in my Centrotec '09 set is annoying ( though sturdy enough ).

AND I wish the Dutch importer ( TTS Tooltechnic ) would show the attitude you guys are privileged to experience. Individuals I've spoken at tool demo's and such are OK and very helpfull, but as soon it gets into the dark dungeons of the company headquarters the overall company policy towards humble clients seems to be to just ignore them. Very annoying !!! I guess the "outstanding service"is NAINE........

Regards,

Job

 

[AlexThePalex]

As much as I agree with lots of what's stated above, I think you must compare apples to apples.

Well, maybe I am and maybe I don't have full knowledge about these matters, but considering the Bosch bits are for ANY type of stone, bricks, natural stone and concrete, and they can do it for just 21 euros, you'd expect a 44 euro set to do quite a bit more, I'd say. Considering how Festool always prides itself on only using the best of the best and is better than the rest, you'd think they could outperform a measly Bosch set with great ease. The harder a metal has to be, the more costly it is to fabricate. Now if Bosch can make a hard AND sharp set for 21, where is this extra cost of the Protool set coming from? Just the tiny cutter tip? Sorry, I don't buy that.

As usefull as it might be, Centrotec is not a hammer system !

That's odd, for I have clearly used a Protool 18v hammer drill, with Centrotec shaft and all. The masonry set is only available as Protool, not Festool, and Protool has a whole line of hammer drills for rough construction work. Also, there is no mention whatsoever on the Protool set it is not meant for concrete. The reason my dealer told me about not using the set for concrete is the fact that he got loads of unsatisfied customers back after one day with their brand new expensive set which was now dull after drilling one or two holes.

 

[jvsteenb]

I may have been unclear.

You shouldn't worry about using the Protool drill bits in concrete, I do occasionally. Just don't use them in hammer mode.

I am aware of the Protool line-up, and I've had the chance to testdrive the Protool 18V hammerdrill with Centrotec - it's very sweet and has been on my not-so-shortlist since, I just wouldn't dream of using any Centrotec accessory in hammer mode. There is a reason that quick connect systems like for instance SDS have axial rather than circumferential grooves. When hammering, I would use the Jacobs/Rohm type chuck, so no Centrotec ball-detent is to be damaged. I would hope Protool states this in the manual...

When Protool isn't clear about the intended use of the drill bits - that's bad. But then again: you should know your tools and try to use them as intended. The difference in tip-geometry is very clear once you care to take a look at them.  

[attachimg=#]

Sorry for the crappy quality, my phone doesn?t do Macro very well. But you can clearly see the difference in geometry. The Protool Centrotec 10mm bit on the left has a  rather steap release angle and a distinctive edge ( still sharp, though it has seen quite some use ) while the Spit SDS concrete drill on the right has a much shallower release, a distinctly negative cutting angle, and isn't sharp from the start - there's no real need.
The concrete drill also has the carbide tip embedded further away in the spiral, to support the impact energy - the steel "cushions" the impact and dampens the vibrations in the carbide tip. The Protool drill OTOH has the insert as flush as possible with the leading edge of the spiral, to accomodate the quick removal of the grit from the cutting edge and maintain precision - it isn't meant to be "assisted" by the vibratory action of the hammering ( this is one of the reasons hammerdrill bits don't do very well in pure rotary mode, certainly not top-down - the grit just won't release properly and keeps interfering with the cutting process )

BTW: Bosch have a so-called universal drill in their line-up, not unlike the Protool Centrotec masonry drill. Just as the Protool, you'll quickly ruin it hammering.  On a tangent but somehow similar note: you'll quickly ruin your Kirschen chisels or LN planes doing solid-surface.... doesn't mean they're crap to start with. IMNSHO, the dealer should be the one to advise potential customers about this drillbit set - not by stating that they "dull quickly" or are substandard quality ( to which cause I can testify they're certainly NOT ) but by pointing out their intended use.
Protool sell a cilindrical shaft concrete set similar to the Bosch set you mentioned. They retail for Euro 23,44 so you'll probably be able to acquire them for somewhere around the 21 Euro pricemark you set. I have no experience with them, but given my experience with the rest of the consumable lineup, I suspect they would be at least on par ( they do however come in one of these crappy plastic containers, wich is annoying) . Apples to apples.

Just my two Eurocents.

Regards,

Job

 

[Deansocial]

I may have been unclear.

You shouldn't worry about using the Protool drill bits in concrete, I do occasionally. Just don't use them in hammer mode.

I am aware of the Protool line-up, and I've had the chance to testdrive the Protool 18V hammerdrill with Centrotec - it's very sweet and has been on my not-so-shortlist since, I just wouldn't dream of using any Centrotec accessory in hammer mode. There is a reason that quick connect systems like for instance SDS have axial rather than circumferential grooves. When hammering, I would use the Jacobs/Rohm type chuck, so no Centrotec ball-detent is to be damaged. I would hope Protool states this in the manual...

When Protool isn't clear about the intended use of the drill bits - that's bad. But then again: you should know your tools and try to use them as intended. The difference in tip-geometry is very clear once you care to take a look at them.  

[attachimg=#]

Sorry for the crappy quality, my phone doesn?t do Macro very well. But you can clearly see the difference in geometry. The Protool Centrotec 10mm bit on the left has a  rather steap release angle and a distinctive edge ( still sharp, though it has seen quite some use ) while the Spit SDS concrete drill on the right has a much shallower release, a distinctly negative cutting angle, and isn't sharp from the start - there's no real need.
The concrete drill also has the carbide tip embedded further away in the spiral, to support the impact energy - the steel "cushions" the impact and dampens the vibrations in the carbide tip. The Protool drill OTOH has the insert as flush as possible with the leading edge of the spiral, to accomodate the quick removal of the grit from the cutting edge and maintain precision - it isn't meant to be "assisted" by the vibratory action of the hammering ( this is one of the reasons hammerdrill bits don't do very well in pure rotary mode, certainly not top-down - the grit just won't release properly and keeps interfering with the cutting process )

BTW: Bosch have a so-called universal drill in their line-up, not unlike the Protool Centrotec masonry drill. Just as the Protool, you'll quickly ruin it hammering.  On a tangent but somehow similar note: you'll quickly ruin your Kirschen chisels or LN planes doing solid-surface.... doesn't mean they're crap to start with. IMNSHO, the dealer should be the one to advise potential customers about this drillbit set - not by stating that they "dull quickly" or are substandard quality ( to which cause I can testify they're certainly NOT ) but by pointing out their intended use.
Protool sell a cilindrical shaft concrete set similar to the Bosch set you mentioned. They retail for Euro 23,44 so you'll probably be able to acquire them for somewhere around the 21 Euro pricemark you set. I have no experience with them, but given my experience with the rest of the consumable lineup, I suspect they would be at least on par ( they do however come in one of these crappy plastic containers, wich is annoying) . Apples to apples.

Just my two Eurocents.

Regards,

Job

And what do you think the chuck is held on with?

 

[jvsteenb]

And what do you think the chuck is held on with?

Actually, with the OUTER ball detent ( the QuickFix part ) , the Centrotec detent isn't involved - in fact: it's not even there with the keyless chuck on.

Regards,

Job

 

[Deansocial]

no but the chucks outer detent is still there to damage ad the chuck is more expensive. Anyway i would never use that type of drill for drilling masonry anyway, Get yourself a 24/36v hilti for those jobs, i did and have never looked back.

 

[AlexThePalex]

I am aware of the Protool line-up, and I've had the chance to testdrive the Protool 18V hammerdrill with Centrotec - it's very sweet and has been on my not-so-shortlist since, I just wouldn't dream of using any Centrotec accessory in hammer mode. There is a reason that quick connect systems like for instance SDS have axial rather than circumferential grooves. When hammering, I would use the Jacobs/Rohm type chuck, so no Centrotec ball-detent is to be damaged. I would hope Protool states this in the manual...

I read the manual from a to z and there was no mention of it, so I guess it's not an issue. The only warnings in the manual of the PDC 18-4 TEC Li regarding hammer mode was not to use it with the right angle chuck, and you should not use the hammer mode for long periods, just so now and then. So drilling 5 holes in a row is ok, 20 not.   

 

[jvsteenb]

OK - It may be my overcautious nature then. I certainly wouldn't use any Centrotec drill bit for hammering - certainly not since concrete drills are available - mind you : they're not Centrotec style.
Still, I think the dealer should know the tools he sells, and seeing the geometry it's quite clear to me that these are NOT meant for hammering in concrete. They were actually marked "stone" , and the concrete drills are clearly marked "concrete".
I must admit the price surplus for the centrotec shaft is annoying. Then again: use them and they buy you time for those jobs that you really don't want to interrupt what you're doing to unbox your corded drill. They make me money.
But to re-iterate the point I was trying to get across: I don't think the quality is substandard - actually I think these drills are great quality. It's just the price that annoys me, for I don't really get why this shaft ( which is very clever, but not exactly rocket science ) should effectively double the price for a set of drills - a 25% surplus would be more reasonable. It's kinda like "Gilette marketing", only in this case the holder isn't exactly cheap......

Regards,

Job

 

[justinmcf]

i love festool products.
i love protool products.

i buy the accessories as needed.
i ignore the accessories that are over priced and under designed.
these drill bits you are talking seem over rated.

i use hilti and bosch rotary hammer drills that accept sds drill bits for drilling through concrete.
i cant see me ever buying these protool drill bits based on what i have read here.

on the other hand i will buy a set of protool zobo drill bits in the near future, they look fantastic!
has anyone used the zobo bits here?

justin.

 

[jvsteenb]

these drill bits you are talking seem over rated. ..... i cant see me ever buying these protool drill bits based on what i have read here.

Well, they may not be for you. Whenever I know beforehand have to drill in concrete I plan on using a rotary hammer with SDS bits - it's only natural. But I encounter a lot of situations where that's a hassle, and not really needed - like some nice clean holes ( to size !! ) in ordinary brick or the likes. Sometimes on a ladder, or in an awkward position. It can be a BIG boon to NOT have to get the "Big gun" but just swap your screwbit with a masonry drill bit ( not even switching chucks ) drill that hole, insert a plug or whatever, and go along. Keeping a couple of nylon plugs and the respective screws and drillbits in your toolbelt saves massive time - no need to come down the ladder, for instance.

Perhaps Protool decided to make them just for me. Anyhow: I like ( and use ) them a lot, think they're very good quality and even if noone else likes them, I will still be advocating them. Oh and Protool : as long as noone else seems to like them - better discontinue the item. I'll relieve you of a good deal of the stock ( say 10 sets ) for a generous 15% of the MSRP.....

Regards,

Job

 

[jvsteenb]

BTW: I had the opportunity to use the ZOBO bits ( just a demo ) and think they're very nice. The ability to use an extended centerdrill as a guide to drill on an angle is great. It felt kinda wrong to plunge in at 45 degrees with a center bit that skinny, but it was up to the task. Again,  the Centrotec Zobo lineup is just a very small subset of the complete Zobo lineup - too bad.

Regards,

Job

 

[Deansocial]

i think that is because the centrotec shaft is too weak to take the larger driil bits