Festool Table Saw Survey

fshanno said:
Most every question seemed tuned to find out if the respondent might be interested in the CMS and saw insert pretty much as it exists today.   At least that's my impression.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, I didn't see it that way. I was not sure what a "benchtop" vs. portable table saw meant so I assumed it meant portable.
If anything I was hope this was more about introducing the Trimming saw PRECISIO CS 70
By the time I finished screwing around customizing my Bosch 4001, I could have bought one of the Precisio's in the UK and shipped it here. 
Tim
 
If Festool is serious about bringing a tablesaw to this market, they need to hurry up as I'm planning on buying a Mafell Erika 85 sometime in the next year or so.  If the Precisio 70 was available I'd buy it immediately.
 
I took the survey and answered honestly.  I honestly don't see any portable / benchtop saw product coming here for years with the current legal climate.  I saw the CMS back in 2009 and it was finally released in just the router format here 4 years later.  Product development times are about 6 years we were told back in 2009.

Now if having a product for sale prior to all the legislation regarding table saws will protect that product from legal issues in the future, then all bets are off.

Peter
 
I took the survey as well.
I think it's just to research what most of us need in a portable table saw
If Festool decide to put a portable table saw on the US market,it needs to be better in some aspect compared to what is avaible here(Dewalt/Bosch/Makita....)
Make it lighter?  More accurate?  safer?  Better quality built? Dust control? more accessories?
We know it will be more expensive so they need to find a market for it.
 
My guess is that any new table saw product has to feature a Sawstop safety stop or else face legal challenges in the future. The local Sawstop retailer is selling many saws to schools replacing otherwise serviceable saws solely due to liability concerns. I bought one for the safety feature and for its great design.
 
mastercabman said:
I took the survey as well.
I think it's just to research what most of us need in a portable table saw
If Festool decide to put a portable table saw on the US market,it needs to be better in some aspect compared to what is avaible here(Dewalt/Bosch/Makita....)
Make it lighter?  More accurate?  safer?   Better quality built? Dust control? more accessories?
We know it will be more expensive so they need to find a market for it.
Click to expand...

So the question I'll pose here, what's wrong with the current offerings from the other manufacturers?  The way I see it is there are two major things wrong, poor overall quality and dust collection.

I like the idea of those small saws like the DeWalt DW745.  Reality, a little too small and not very good overall quality.  The slightly bigger saws, DW744 or Makita 2705.  The size is better but again poor overall quality, harder to transport and bad dust collection.  I think the Bosch 4100 with gravity rise stand is the best saw out there now, it does fall short of perfect in a lot of respects.  

I don't have the 4100/stand but I work regularly with someone that does and I use it often.  I like the size when working with it.  Storing/transporting/moving in and out of the job, well it's big and bulky and somewhat heavy.    Sure you can roll it to the back yard or in the garage. Getting it up stairs or through a door without banging up stuff-even getting it in and out of the truck without manhandling it, not going to happen.  My opinion, it is not possibly to move it in and out of a client's house by yourself.  The fence is decent.  Overall quality of the saw, not bad.  Dust collection, poor.  I think the stand is very weak in regards to getting the saw up stairs or over obstacles.  Still, it's the best we have.  

So what would I want from a Festool table saw??  Well, I don't think either the CMS TS insert or Precisio would be my first choice.  First, I don't want to pay the same price for the CMS insert/fence (and tie my track saw up) as I would for a full blow saw and stand.  The Precisio, I like that you don't have to put your track saw in it.  I'm not wild about the pull feature.  I don't know the exact pricing but it is crazy.  Also, these platforms with all the extensions and sliding tables just aren't practical for everyday setup and transport.  

Here's what I'd like to see Festool, or anyone else for that matter, do in a table saw.  A standalone unit, meaning you don't have to drop your track saw in.  I think a medium size would be good.  Slightly bigger than the CMS in size.  I want a solid fence that extends like what we see on most of the portable table saws now.  However, I'd like the fence to lock down square every time without fuss.  I don't want to skimp on the fence quality.  I don't want it to be sophisticated, simple will do, but it needs to be solid for years.  Crosscutting can be an after thought, very simple but available.  The way I see it, carpenters are main group that buy portable table saws and we use a miter saw for crosscutting.  Don't add expense with a sophisticated crosscutting solution.  I like the folding legs of the CMS/Precisio over wheels, assuming the unit is light and small enough to carry.  A simple but useable outfeed extension, as an accessory, might be nice.  Dust collect, we're talking about Festool so that is a given.  I'd also like the interior of saw to not collect and hold dust that you track everywhere as you move the saw.  You know what I mean, all the nooks and crannies that hold dust, do something about that.  And, like the CMS/Precisio, I'd like to carry all the stuff I need on-board, like extra blades, push stick, tools to change the blade and so on.  A safety blade stopping technology is not a priority to me.     

What do you guys really want and what do you think about what I had to say?                  
 
Brice Burrell said:
mastercabman said:
I took the survey as well.
I think it's just to research what most of us need in a portable table saw
If Festool decide to put a portable table saw on the US market,it needs to be better in some aspect compared to what is avaible here(Dewalt/Bosch/Makita....)
Make it lighter?  More accurate?  safer?   Better quality built? Dust control? more accessories?
We know it will be more expensive so they need to find a market for it.
Click to expand...

So the question I'll pose here, what's wrong with the current offerings from the other manufacturers?  The way I see it is there are two major things wrong, poor overall quality and dust collection.

I like the idea of those small saws like the DeWalt DW745.  Reality, a little too small and not very good overall quality.  The slightly bigger saws, DW744 or Makita 2705.  The size is better but again poor overall quality, harder to transport and bad dust collection.  I think the Bosch 4100 with gravity rise stand is the best saw out there now, it does fall short of perfect in a lot of respects.  

I don't have the 4100/stand but I work regularly with someone that does and I use it often.  I like the size when working with it.  Storing/transporting/moving in and out of the job, well it's big and bulky and somewhat heavy.    Sure you can roll it to the back yard or in the garage. Getting it up stairs or through a door without banging up stuff-even getting it in and out of the truck without manhandling it, not going to happen.  My opinion, it is not possibly to move it in and out of a client's house by yourself.  The fence is decent.  Overall quality of the saw, not bad.  Dust collection, poor.  I think the stand is very weak in regards to getting the saw up stairs or over obstacles.  Still, it's the best we have.  

So what would I want from a Festool table saw??  Well, I don't think either the CMS TS insert or Precisio would be my first choice.  First, I don't want to pay the same price for the CMS insert/fence (and tie my track saw up) as I would for a full blow saw and stand.  The Precisio, I like that you don't have to put your track saw in it.  I'm not wild about the pull feature.  I don't know the exact pricing but it is crazy.  Also, these platforms with all the extensions and sliding tables just aren't practical for everyday setup and transport.  

Here's what I'd like to see Festool, or anyone else for that matter, do in a table saw.  A standalone unit, meaning you don't have to drop your track saw in.  I think a medium size would be good.  Slightly bigger than the CMS in size.  I want a solid fence that extends like what we see on most of the portable table saws now.  However, I'd like the fence to lock down square every time without fuss.  I don't want to skimp on the fence quality.  I don't want it to be sophisticated, simple will do, but it needs to be solid for years.  Crosscutting can be an after thought, very simple but available.  The way I see it, carpenters are main group that buy portable table saws and we use a miter saw for crosscutting.  Don't add expense with a sophisticated crosscutting solution.  I like the folding legs of the CMS/Precisio over wheels, assuming the unit is light and small enough to carry.  A simple but useable outfeed extension, as an accessory, might be nice.  Dust collect, we're talking about Festool so that is a given.  I'd also like the interior of saw to not collect and hold dust that you track everywhere as you move the saw.  You know what I mean, all the nooks and crannies that hold dust, do something about that.  And, like the CMS/Precisio, I'd like to carry all the stuff I need on-board, like extra blades, push stick, tools to change the blade and so on.  A safety blade stopping technology is not a priority to me.     

What do you guys really want and what do you think about what I had to say?                  
Click to expand...

All sounds good to me, a smallish, lightweight saw that features good dust collection and would be used almost solely for ripping smaller items maybe up to 8-12". I feel the same way about the safety blade, if it is included fine but if not it wouldn't be a deal breaker. I have always had a VERY healthy respect for my table saw.
 
Brice Burrell said:
mastercabman said:
I took the survey as well.
I think it's just to research what most of us need in a portable table saw
If Festool decide to put a portable table saw on the US market,it needs to be better in some aspect compared to what is avaible here(Dewalt/Bosch/Makita....)
Make it lighter?  More accurate?  safer?   Better quality built? Dust control? more accessories?
We know it will be more expensive so they need to find a market for it.
Click to expand...

So the question I'll pose here, what's wrong with the current offerings from the other manufacturers?  The way I see it is there are two major things wrong, poor overall quality and dust collection.

I like the idea of those small saws like the DeWalt DW745.  Reality, a little too small and not very good overall quality.  The slightly bigger saws, DW744 or Makita 2705.  The size is better but again poor overall quality, harder to transport and bad dust collection.  I think the Bosch 4100 with gravity rise stand is the best saw out there now, it does fall short of perfect in a lot of respects.  

I don't have the 4100/stand but I work regularly with someone that does and I use it often.  I like the size when working with it.  Storing/transporting/moving in and out of the job, well it's big and bulky and somewhat heavy.    Sure you can roll it to the back yard or in the garage. Getting it up stairs or through a door without banging up stuff-even getting it in and out of the truck without manhandling it, not going to happen.  My opinion, it is not possibly to move it in and out of a client's house by yourself.  The fence is decent.  Overall quality of the saw, not bad.  Dust collection, poor.  I think the stand is very weak in regards to getting the saw up stairs or over obstacles.  Still, it's the best we have.  

So what would I want from a Festool table saw??  Well, I don't think either the CMS TS insert or Precisio would be my first choice.  First, I don't want to pay the same price for the CMS insert/fence (and tie my track saw up) as I would for a full blow saw and stand.  The Precisio, I like that you don't have to put your track saw in it.  I'm not wild about the pull feature.  I don't know the exact pricing but it is crazy.  Also, these platforms with all the extensions and sliding tables just aren't practical for everyday setup and transport.  

Here's what I'd like to see Festool, or anyone else for that matter, do in a table saw.  A standalone unit, meaning you don't have to drop your track saw in.  I think a medium size would be good.  Slightly bigger than the CMS in size.  I want a solid fence that extends like what we see on most of the portable table saws now.  However, I'd like the fence to lock down square every time without fuss.  I don't want to skimp on the fence quality.  I don't want it to be sophisticated, simple will do, but it needs to be solid for years.  Crosscutting can be an after thought, very simple but available.  The way I see it, carpenters are main group that buy portable table saws and we use a miter saw for crosscutting.  Don't add expense with a sophisticated crosscutting solution.  I like the folding legs of the CMS/Precisio over wheels, assuming the unit is light and small enough to carry.  A simple but useable outfeed extension, as an accessory, might be nice.  Dust collect, we're talking about Festool so that is a given.  I'd also like the interior of saw to not collect and hold dust that you track everywhere as you move the saw.  You know what I mean, all the nooks and crannies that hold dust, do something about that.  And, like the CMS/Precisio, I'd like to carry all the stuff I need on-board, like extra blades, push stick, tools to change the blade and so on.  A safety blade stopping technology is not a priority to me.     

What do you guys really want and what do you think about what I had to say?                  
Click to expand...
Brice
What I stated is more or less examples of what some people would like to see improved.I'm not saying that those saws are really bad but some has weak features and some have great one.
You may not be very big on blade stopping technology but someone out there is! ( I don't really care for it,it just add more cost and more weight)
I think what you describe about how you want a table saw is pretty much what i'm looking for too.I have the small Dewalt and don't really care for it.I really hate the fence system.(the gear system) but for a lot of people it's the best thing they ever experience.On my saw The fence never stays parallel to the blade.I had it fixed several times and still not all that good.
I also have the big Bosch saw witch I really love.Powerful,accurate,good quality,but it is big and heavy and it does have"all the nooks and crannies that hold dust" ;)(unless you use a vac,it's not that bad)I like a saw that is easy to transport,good quality,good fence,and have all the accessories on board.
I have been looking at the new small Bosch.But maybe Festool will come out with their version.?
 
mastercabman said:
Brice Burrell said:
mastercabman said:
I took the survey as well.
I think it's just to research what most of us need in a portable table saw
If Festool decide to put a portable table saw on the US market,it needs to be better in some aspect compared to what is avaible here(Dewalt/Bosch/Makita....)
Make it lighter?  More accurate?  safer?   Better quality built? Dust control? more accessories?
We know it will be more expensive so they need to find a market for it.
Click to expand...

So the question I'll pose here, what's wrong with the current offerings from the other manufacturers?  The way I see it is there are two major things wrong, poor overall quality and dust collection.

I like the idea of those small saws like the DeWalt DW745.  Reality, a little too small and not very good overall quality.  The slightly bigger saws, DW744 or Makita 2705.  The size is better but again poor overall quality, harder to transport and bad dust collection.  I think the Bosch 4100 with gravity rise stand is the best saw out there now, it does fall short of perfect in a lot of respects.  

I don't have the 4100/stand but I work regularly with someone that does and I use it often.  I like the size when working with it.  Storing/transporting/moving in and out of the job, well it's big and bulky and somewhat heavy.    Sure you can roll it to the back yard or in the garage. Getting it up stairs or through a door without banging up stuff-even getting it in and out of the truck without manhandling it, not going to happen.  My opinion, it is not possibly to move it in and out of a client's house by yourself.  The fence is decent.  Overall quality of the saw, not bad.  Dust collection, poor.  I think the stand is very weak in regards to getting the saw up stairs or over obstacles.  Still, it's the best we have.  

So what would I want from a Festool table saw??  Well, I don't think either the CMS TS insert or Precisio would be my first choice.  First, I don't want to pay the same price for the CMS insert/fence (and tie my track saw up) as I would for a full blow saw and stand.  The Precisio, I like that you don't have to put your track saw in it.  I'm not wild about the pull feature.  I don't know the exact pricing but it is crazy.  Also, these platforms with all the extensions and sliding tables just aren't practical for everyday setup and transport.  

Here's what I'd like to see Festool, or anyone else for that matter, do in a table saw.  A standalone unit, meaning you don't have to drop your track saw in.  I think a medium size would be good.  Slightly bigger than the CMS in size.  I want a solid fence that extends like what we see on most of the portable table saws now.  However, I'd like the fence to lock down square every time without fuss.  I don't want to skimp on the fence quality.  I don't want it to be sophisticated, simple will do, but it needs to be solid for years.  Crosscutting can be an after thought, very simple but available.  The way I see it, carpenters are main group that buy portable table saws and we use a miter saw for crosscutting.  Don't add expense with a sophisticated crosscutting solution.  I like the folding legs of the CMS/Precisio over wheels, assuming the unit is light and small enough to carry.  A simple but useable outfeed extension, as an accessory, might be nice.  Dust collect, we're talking about Festool so that is a given.  I'd also like the interior of saw to not collect and hold dust that you track everywhere as you move the saw.  You know what I mean, all the nooks and crannies that hold dust, do something about that.  And, like the CMS/Precisio, I'd like to carry all the stuff I need on-board, like extra blades, push stick, tools to change the blade and so on.  A safety blade stopping technology is not a priority to me.     

What do you guys really want and what do you think about what I had to say?                  
Click to expand...
Brice
What I stated is more or less examples of what some people would like to see improved.I'm not saying that those saws are really bad but some has weak features and some have great one.
You may not be very big on blade stopping technology but someone out there is! ( I don't really care for it,it just add more cost and more weight)
I think what you describe about how you want a table saw is pretty much what i'm looking for too.I have the small Dewalt and don't really care for it.I really hate the fence system.(the gear system) but for a lot of people it's the best thing they ever experience.On my saw The fence never stays parallel to the blade.I had it fixed several times and still not all that good.
I also have the big Bosch saw witch I really love.Powerful,accurate,good quality,but it is big and heavy and it does have"all the nooks and crannies that hold dust" ;)(unless you use a vac,it's not that bad)I like a saw that is easy to transport,good quality,good fence,and have all the accessories on board.
I have been looking at the new small Bosch.But maybe Festool will come out with their version.?
Click to expand...
And the quest for the perfect portable table saw continues....... Love the part about nooks & crannies....do something about that! Right!?!?
 
Lets remember the CS70 is long overdue for an update. Also, I've often said that a proper module for a saw that slips into the CMS system would be much nicer than trapping your TS55 or TS75.

A module capable of a clean and precise 75mm rip cut would be awesome ... though if it was simply a module for the existing CMS is would need to rely on the existing fence (or an advanced fence accessory would need to be introduced).

The entire saw-stop thing annoys me. Obviously accidents can happen, but education is THE major issue. Most power tools are dangerous if not treated with the utmost respect. After all, there's no safety mechanism on a gun that stops you shooting yourself or someone/thing else by accident! (All said - I'm not against the saw-stop itself, just the idea that it could be mandated as a requirement).
 
I'll go with what Brice said:

Brice Burrell said:
Here's what I'd like to see Festool, or anyone else for that matter, do in a table saw.
  • A standalone unit, meaning you don't have to drop your track saw in.
  • Slightly bigger than the CMS in size.
  • I want a solid fence that extends like what we see on most of the portable table saws now.  However, I'd like the fence to lock down square every time without fuss.  I don't want to skimp on the fence quality.  I don't want it to be sophisticated, simple will do, but it needs to be solid for years.
  • Crosscutting can be an after thought, very simple but available.  Don't add expense with a sophisticated crosscutting solution.
  • I like the folding legs of the CMS/Precisio over wheels, assuming the unit is light and small enough to carry.
  • A simple but useable outfeed extension, as an accessory, might be nice.
  • Dust collect, we're talking about Festool so that is a given.
  • I'd also like the interior of saw to not collect and hold dust that you track everywhere as you move the saw.  You know what I mean, all the nooks and crannies that hold dust, do something about that.
  • And, like the CMS/Precisio, I'd like to carry all the stuff I need on-board, like extra blades, push stick, tools to change the blade and so on.
  • A safety blade stopping technology is not a priority to me.
Click to expand...

Thanks for doing the thinking, Brice!

Regards,

John
 
I am with Brice on this. In the USA, the existing portable table saw does the work that is required by most contractors and hobby workers. For Festool to improve on the design, I think the basic design needs to stay similar to what already exists with a better fence, dust collection, etc. I just don't see a $2000 and up type saw system selling very well at all. I am in the market right now for a portable light saw and considering the Dewalt DW745 with their roller stand as it meets my basic needs although not my quality desires.
 
Just curious, but why does an on-site carpenter need a table saw?

I'm a hobbyist and I do some commission work mostly for small projects involving exotic woods so I really don't understand the need for an on-site table saw. Seems like a good compound miter saw and a track saw would be adequate.

Regarding Sawstop's technology, I do expect some states, California for example, to require it on table saws. I think many schools are switching to the Sawstop just to provide a legal defense. I bought one after 25 injury free years using a Unisaw. If anything, I am more careful using the Sawstop than I was with the Unisaw.
 
Birdhunter said:
Just curious, but why does an on-site carpenter need a table saw?
Click to expand...

It's rather difficult to rip lumber accurately with a hand saw or most circular saws.  In some circumstances, track saws become a liability, especially when you have low-end labor around that doesn't know or care about quality or good tools.  A decent bench-top saw takes up little space while providing reasonably accurate cuts. And one doesn't need to worry about the pick-up labor using guide rails as skids or levers. 

 
Birdhunter said:
Just curious, but why does an on-site carpenter need a table saw?

I'm a hobbyist and I do some commission work mostly for small projects involving exotic woods so I really don't understand the need for an on-site table saw. Seems like a good compound miter saw and a track saw would be adequate.

Regarding Sawstop's technology, I do expect some states, California for example, to require it on table saws. I think many schools are switching to the Sawstop just to provide a legal defense. I bought one after 25 injury free years using a Unisaw. If anything, I am more careful using the Sawstop than I was with the Unisaw.
Click to expand...

We've had the track saw/table saw debate so many times on here I don't think anyone wants to rehash it.  Let's just say some are table saw people and some aren't.

As for Sawstop technology, I love the idea, that is, when it becomes practical on a portable table saw.  Unless it's mandated by law I may never buy a saw with that technology.  That said, I am supportive of mandating safety blade stopping technology.  I'd like to see someone else be able able to crack into this technology so there would be some competition.  That may not happen in the foreseeable future.          
 
Birdhunter said:
Just curious, but why does an on-site carpenter need a table saw?

I'm a hobbyist and I do some commission work mostly for small projects involving exotic woods so I really don't understand the need for an on-site table saw. Seems like a good compound miter saw and a track saw would be adequate.
Click to expand...
The table saw is better in some cases.I deal with fillers a lot for cabinets installation.Most are 3" wide and it's harder to set up a track saw to do narrow rips.
Larger material such as sheets I use my track saw.
 
I recently handled the the sliding router table.  I found it too flimsy. If festool is to make a table saw the #1 thing is it needs to be sturdy not wobbly with a SOLID fence. A 10" blade capable of 3 1/2" rip is good. 24" rip to one side is good. A stiff and ridgid riving knife is a must, forget about that blade stopping crap that's for schools. If its a rolling cart make it so the saw is quick removable from the cart so if one is strength challenged they can haul it. Just my 2 cents.
 
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