Festool TID 18 - Product Overview

[Stone Message]

Hi Everyone

I have had a lot of requests to do something on the TID 18 and, as I have been unable to get my hands on one, I have borrowed one from Festool UK.

I set out to provide an informative tour of the machine with a dash of background to help those not familiar with impact drivers.


Peter

 

[Stone Message]

Hi Everyone

I would like to clear up one small detail and do not want to start a debate about this as it detracts from what I consider to be a great tool...

A number of people have contacted me saying that an impact driver produces no axial force and that my description is wrong. This is my reply:

The axial force is not intended but is there and must be mentioned. It is much weaker than the radial force but does contribute to the easy work of driving a screw.

The flywheel rotates and moves forward. The forward motion, when stopped as the flywheel hits the plate, creates an axial force that is transferred to the tool tip. I agree with everyone who says it should not be there but it is and has to be mentioned.

If you need absolute proof, get your impact driver out and use it to put a reasonably large screw into the end of a long piece of wood. Before you pull the trigger of the drill push the drill tip against the wood with the amount of force that you would need to do the work. You will find that you can react that force and keep the wood still on the bench top. Now repeat but drive the screw in. You will find it almost impossible to stop the wood from moving in the axial direction.

Peter

 

[sancho57]

I know Paul sure likes his and uses the heck out of it.

Ill be getting one shortly myself

 

[TwelvebyTwenty]

Peter - from your other videos I see you have an Hitachi impact driver. You said you borrowed this from Festool, based on your experience with it first hand, and given you have the battery system so the cost of entry will be fairly low, do you intend to buy the Festool version whilst your Hitachi is still going strong, or did the TiD 18 not impress you enough to make you want to do so?

 

[Stone Message]

Peter - from your other videos I see you have an Hitachi impact driver. You said you borrowed this from Festool, based on your experience with it first hand, and given you have the battery system so the cost of entry will be fairly low, do you intend to buy the Festool version whilst your Hitachi is still going strong, or did the TiD 18 not impress you enough to make you want to do so?

I do not normally make comparisons between equipment as they can be so subjective and some people get very attached to particular tools. However, there is no doubt that my 10 (or so) year old Hitachi is never going to impress me again. I have no idea what the rest of the market is like for impact drivers but as so much of the cost of cordless tools is tied up in the batteries then Festool is the route for me.

It may have to wait until Christmas though !

Peter

 

[FestitaMakool]

Once again a straight forward video Peter. Thanks!

I too noticed you mentioned axial impact. There probably has to be a slight forward impact, in synchronisation with the rotational. As the stroke hits the screw, it and the bit are helped massively by a slight forward stroke to not risk stripping the screw head or bit. This motion helps the bit to hit the bottom of the screw head at impact.

There will be advances in technology in impacts still i think. But realising the latest improvements  I think different modes and electronic control is first out. (IE: The limit of power the 6 point socket can handle must be very close? [huh]) I too bought a new impact of the same make I have in my old (10+ years). Yes I was impressed, but mostly by several useful modes to help efficiency. The new leader is faster, more powerful. But the oldie still does its job. Noise is about the same.

 

[Svar]

The axial force is not intended but is there and must be mentioned. It is much weaker than the radial force but does contribute to the easy work of driving a screw.

You are correct. There is a small axial force in addition to radial at least on some drivers. Seem like splitting the force ~90% radial and ~10% axial makes sense to follow direction of the thread. Matthias Wandel did a great experiment on that on his YouTube channel recently. He managed to hammer a small nail with an impact driver.

 

[wpz]

The axial force is not intended but is there and must be mentioned. It is much weaker than the radial force but does contribute to the easy work of driving a screw.

You are correct. There is small axial force in addition to radial at least on some drivers, which makes sense. Matthias Wandel did a great experiment on that on his YouTube channel recently. He managed to hammer in a small nail with an impact driver.

Here's the video:

On my Bosch GDR 12-110 and my old Festool Ti15 this force is almost non-existent, maybe it is stronger on the new TID18, after all the tangential impact is also much stronger (180 Nm vs 110 Nm)
Not so sure if this axial impact is a good thing, especially if you fasten bolts into tapped steel beams for instance, it might destroy the threads.

In this video:
you can see a slowmotion of the action of a Dewalt and an impact adapter (around 1:05).
As you can see the Dewalt also has a very small axial impact, the adapter does not.

wpz

 

[semenza]

Peter,

  What happens in T mode if you don't let off the trigger once the screw sinks? Does it stop on it's own or keep going?

  I think it would be good to demonstrate impacts driving things that are hard to drive. Such as long / large diameter screw into the face of thick hard wood. Maybe 4" - 6" thick. As opposed to end grain. Most regular drills can drive into end grain. I think it would be more instructive of the power of an impact to show more difficult driving. Maybe even in comparison to a couple drills.

    That's not a critique. More of a request.  [thumbs up]

Seth

 

[Stone Message]

Peter,

  What happens in T mode if you don't let off the trigger once the screw sinks? Does it stop on it's own or keep going?

  I think it would be good to demonstrate impacts driving things that are hard to drive. Such as long / large diameter screw into the face of thick hard wood. Maybe 4" - 6" thick. As opposed to end grain. Most regular drills can drive into end grain. I think it would be more instructive of the power of an impact to show more difficult driving. Maybe even in comparison to a couple drills.

    That's not a critique. More of a request.  [thumbs up]

Seth

Hi Seth

I did look around for some big lumps of wood but found none. We moved house recently and I had to give away a lot of wood and other stuff that would not fit in the new location.

I am sure that someone else can find something challenging.

Peter

 

[yetihunter]

Peter,

  What happens in T mode if you don't let off the trigger once the screw sinks? Does it stop on it's own or keep going?

As far as I recall, the T-Mode on the Festool simply slows down the rpm from thousands to hundreds (although I did have a bad one).  I am guessing this is intended for metal to wood.  That type of mode is pretty useless to me when using self tappers with steel to steel connections.  Coincidentally, having a T assist mode that just stops after two or three impacts so that the Teks go zoom and then stop perfectly flush has been really good to me the past two days.  Having an auto stop on the reverse (basically an electronic reverse clutch) is always totally awesome.   

[attachimg=1]

I think it would be good to demonstrate impacts driving things that are hard to drive. Such as long / large diameter screw into the face of thick hard wood. Maybe 4" - 6" thick. As opposed to end grain. Most regular drills can drive into end grain. I think it would be more instructive of the power of an impact to show more difficult driving. Maybe even in comparison to a couple drills.

Or show the Festool impact against any other impact made in the past decade. 

 

[FestitaMakool]

[member=19475]yetihunter[/member] I have the same tool, and yes the modes you’re referring to is awesome. I’ve tried it on smaller screws, but not through metal - and it works for fast driving, but one should test each time before relying totally. It saves accidental “pocket holing”, cause these drivers are so fast and powerful and will drive through any softer wood in a blink.

 

[Rusty_Shackleford]

Thanks for the video Peter.  I had already bought my TID but this helped me understand T-Mode much better!  Always appreciate your videos they've been very helpful in some tool purchasing decisions.

 

[Stone Message]

Thanks for the video Peter.  I had already bought my TID but this helped me understand T-Mode much better!  Always appreciate your videos they've been very helpful in some tool purchasing decisions.

Hi [member=73263]Rusty_Shackleford[/member]

Many thanks. I always aim to explain the characteristics of various tools in order to help people make a decision, one way or another, when they are considering a new purchase.

Peter

 

[blues]

Hi Peter,
Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I have watched many videos of yours with much interest. May i respectfully disagree with the enthusiasm of this offering from Festool?
Impacts have been around for a while. And since their introduction the mechanism of their operations have vastly improved, hence manufacturers have been able to deliver larger torques in smaller form factors. And for a few years now, we have had a new class of impacts that uses hydraulics to reduce noise and vibration. In fact the surge from miluwakee (such a joy to use) has had all these modes including the T mode since they were introduced for a lot less price than this regular impact. As we all know Festool tools command a premium but not all tools within their offering live up to the hype and price. So with the TiD18, It is pricy, bulky, heavy and late to the market... so what's the big deal? And why would even a Festool aficionado buy it? Would it not be right to call a spade a spade.. even if it is green in color?

 

[six-point socket II]

I'll try to answer a couple of your questions from a "German home market" perspective.

- Milwaukee is merely a niche brand over here. Yes, people doing research for tools online will take it into consideration/ come across it, others not so much. I have never come across tradespeople (except those actively using the internet, manufacturer forums, (...) using Milwaukee. So as good and innovative as their products are, they are not wide spread. There is a lot of room for them to grow over here outside the internet/social media/youtube bubble. As a customer, you have to be proactive to find them in the market/ dealers who display & sell them.

Festool on the other hand has a foot in the door with many tradespeople and is a lot more visible.

- Impact drivers are a "new market" in Germany. Again, people in the know, know. But the rest is only discovering the wide use/range of impact drivers including safety considerations as they won't bend your wrist. It wasn't until some time last year, I think, that Bosch (for example) startet to shift marketing and production/ product placement in that direction by offering a vast selection of impact bit sets including impact drill bits for steel. Milwaukee has had stuff like that for "ages" in comparison.

The TID does everything it needs to do, and far more if you consider the lug nut thread - as some say it can loosen them no problem and all day long. I have a different view on that, but that doesn't matter.

So for someone needing an impact driver who is already equipped with Festool, the TID will do any and everything it needs to do. Of course you can always argue that it should have been more powerful with lesser noise emission - still the question remains if it is necessary and from which point of view.

A premium in price - to me - is not only justifiable by torque or the latest in motor/driving technology.

We are nearing in on what 1/4" hex can absolutely/ at a maximum reasonably take anyway, speaking of torque. There is a reason 7/16" hex exists in the U.S. - something that is almost completely "unknown" in Germany. (Yes, Wera makes some adaptors ...)

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[blues]

Hi Oliver,
You make some great points. And certainly makes sense.. which is may be why companies like Festool are trying to catch up in this space.
One might also argue that it is precisely for the exact reasons you state that an international forum (owned by Festool ofcourse) with knowledgeable users such as you and Peter need to put things in perspective for the ones who are unaware.
Clearly no user of tools no matter where in the world they are would like to spend on any tool..any more than they have to. So would it not be a kida moral obligation to call that out and provide the right steer or stay away from creating this awareness?
I was curious as to why someone as knowledgeable as Peter would spend time to loan a dated equipment to create this video. And may be you answered it in a way.
Thanks again for indging me with this positive conversation.

 

[Stone Message]

Hi Oliver,
You make some great points. And certainly makes sense.. which is may be why companies like Festool are trying to catch up in this space.
One might also argue that it is precisely for the exact reasons you state that an international forum (owned by Festool ofcourse) with knowledgeable users such as you and Peter need to put things in perspective for the ones who are unaware.
Clearly no user of tools no matter where in the world they are would like to spend on any tool..any more than they have to. So would it not be a kida moral obligation to call that out and provide the right steer or stay away from creating this awareness?
I was curious as to why someone as knowledgeable as Peter would spend time to loan a dated equipment to create this video. And may be you answered it in a way.
Thanks again for indging me with this positive conversation.

I have followed your points made above and your logic is clear and people need to do their market research and get what they feel suits them. I have always avoided doing side by side comparisons of equipment as the work would always end up being subjective. What I try to do, and certainly set out to do with the TID18, is to demonstrate and inform the viewer about the tool in question. I then, almost always, encourage the viewer to go out and try the tool themselves in order to help them make their buying choice.

I had been asked by many of my viewers to do something on the TID18. The Covid pandemic has made chatting to demonstrators at shows impossible and so I think that I have to do my best to show whatever new kit that I can.

I have a list of other Festool tools that people would like more information on and I am doing my best to work my way through it.

Peter

 

[grobkuschelig]

The little perspective I might be able to add to Oliver’s comments is that, as he mentioned already, Milwaukee is barely visible in the market.

And if they are, prices are also not on the lower side.

Just a quick check gave me starting prices of around 175 Euros for any of the Milwaukee impacts.
This would be bare tool.

The TID is 250 Euros incl. the Systainer.

So in my estimation I would say the Festool has a 50€ additional pricing, for which you get a “Made in your Neighborhood” product with service part Guarantee and a really nice Warranty etc.

If you then factor in, that Festool does a battery promotion once or twice per year in Germany...

I have not seen these Promotions from Milwaukee over here. The only Milwaukee promotions I have seen is “buy multiple machines, get stuff for free...”

If you want to get an impact driver over here, you can:
- go totally cheap: 50-70 Eur for some Makita/Bosch/Non-Brand
- Go reasonably cheap: 100€ for DeWalt/Bosch
- Go big or go home: Milwaukee/Metabo/Top-Makita/Festool etc.

I think this is the crux of “global brands”, that their availability and market approaches are different, depending on where you are in the world...

 

[six-point socket II]

Hi Oliver,
You make some great points. And certainly makes sense.. which is may be why companies like Festool are trying to catch up in this space.
One might also argue that it is precisely for the exact reasons you state that an international forum (owned by Festool ofcourse) with knowledgeable users such as you and Peter need to put things in perspective for the ones who are unaware.
Clearly no user of tools no matter where in the world they are would like to spend on any tool..any more than they have to. So would it not be a kida moral obligation to call that out and provide the right steer or stay away from creating this awareness?
I was curious as to why someone as knowledgeable as Peter would spend time to loan a dated equipment to create this video. And may be you answered it in a way.
Thanks again for indging me with this positive conversation.

Now I can't speak for Peter, nor would I ever attempt to do so.

My personal opinion is that the TID, being a fairly newly released tool from Festool, is not dated per se. And people obviously want to see it being demonstrated, discussed. That's were Peter's pretty unique videos come into play, as they offer much more information than typical "power shoot out"-type videos or the like. And that's surely one of the reasons he has been asked to make a video about the TID. And if you follow Peter long enough, you know that his advice is sound and solid - but he also strongly encourages people to make their own decisions/ gain experience of their own. I'm sure there are many people wo are now, thanks to Peter's video, able to make a good decision.

Side by side comparisons are tricky, especially if you are used to a certain brand and how their tools adapt to your hand/ work for you. It's also a costly endeavor, if it is not sponsored - or all loaners. And how much time is one going to spend on preparing all of this?

The other option, simply mentioning other tools/ steering people in direction of tools one has not worked with - I don't see how that is going to do any good. Especially when you haven't had these in hand and can't base advice on a solid foundation.

I can think of quite a few moral obligations I'd consider absolutely valid. But in this instance, saying it would be a kind of moral obligation to enhance your viewers view on the overall power tool market and steer them in the direction of competing manufacturers/ competitor products because they have tools with apparently more power or ones that are less noisy/ feature different driving technology, I don't think so.

It would be if you did a comparison, if you called your video something like "Impact drivers, market overview".

But this is a video about the TID and only that, it is called: Festool TID 18 - Product Overview. That is what the title promises and Peter's video delivers.

On top of that, you can return any Festool tool you are not happy with within a 30 day window for a full refund.

If someone is only happy with a Festool tool if it is, totally inarguable, best in everything - and buyers remorse sets in immediately because there might be a more powerful tool, a nicer tool, a less noisy tool, a tool with different driving technology that is more "up to date" (whatever that means) than that is exactly that persons problem.

I work with my (Festool) tools, I've had incredible and fantastic results with them, these tools work for me like no others. I feel that in a way they are empowering me to take on projects I would not have done if it weren't for that deep trust in the tool(s) and by now my experience, and knowledge on how to work with them. I'm very happy with the way Festool treats, and communicates with, me, even as one of their smallest customers.

To put this in perspective: I bought a, by now "outdated", Snap-On 1/2" impact wrench. It works great, it does everything I need it to do and more. A couple of weeks, maybe it was even 3 months, not sure I recall correctly, later, they introduced a new model with a brushless drive/motor and more torque. Does this make the tool I have, use, and that works for me a poor tool? Do I suddenly need more torque for the same type of use, just because a new model would deliver more?

I'm writing this on a 13" MacBook Air from mid 2012. It's been a reliable companion for the last 7 or 8 years. It still does everything I need it to do. And if asked about it, I would tell anyone how pleased I'm with it. If I did vlogs, people would constantly see it. Sure there are nicer MacBooks by now, with more features & more of everything. Does it make my MBA from 2012 a bad product?

Personally, and this is just offered by me as a thought: What you describe as moral obligation, I consider it a problem to people who have FOMO (fear of missing out).

If a tool works, does what it is supposed to do, fits your hand/ way of working - it is a good tool. No matter if there are newer, shinier, more powerful - or *whatever* tools available from different manufacturers, in different markets at different prices.

Last but not least, people simply need to own up to the decisions they make. If they overspent on stuff without being able to justify that for themselves, or worse jeopardizing their personal or families finances - now that again is a way deeper rooted problem, than any Youtube video not explicitly mentioning availability of (cheaper, more powerful, less noisy, (...)) models of any given product.

I hope this explains my view on the overall subject well.

Kind regards,
Oliver