Festools for cabinetmaking

[MacMitch]

Thanks for that input & research Tom. I must have misunderstood what I read above.

The "good" aluminum is very expensive and most of the designs end up resorting to some sort of bars to get enough strength & retain lightness. At even $1,000 a box the investment for 20-30 "boxes" made of aluminum gives me a reason to research some other alternatives.

 

[tbellemare]

I've bought full sheets of both HDPE and UHMW. HDPE is half the price or less. If it works for your purpose, there's no reason to go with UHMW.

Tom

 

[MacMitch]

I was out of town for a few days at a seminar on dog training so I am late following up but..

I did not know they made coated plywood. Does it have a name or manufacturer I can follow up on? I am in north metro Atlanta, Georgia.

I see the Festool classes all over this site but no list of classes & dates. I Googled it and found:
http://www.festoolusa.com/where-to-buy/experience-demo-days.html

The above page informs me "We're sorry, we do not currently have any events in your area."

Domino
If I buy the DF 500 E Set what else do I need? I see a systainer to hold tenons, looks like I have to buy each individual size to put in it? What sizes might make sense for cabinet making? I see different cutters too, again not sure what sizes I might need nor how fast they might need replacing?

 

[Sparktrician]

I was out of town for a few days at a seminar on dog training so I am late following up but..

I did not know they made coated plywood. Does it have a name or manufacturer I can follow up on? I am in north metro Atlanta, Georgia.

I see the Festool classes all over this site but no list of classes & dates. I Googled it and found:
http://www.festoolusa.com/where-to-buy/experience-demo-days.html

The above page informs me "We're sorry, we do not currently have any events in your area."

Domino
If I buy the DF 500 E Set what else do I need? I see a systainer to hold tenons, looks like I have to buy each individual size to put in it? What sizes might make sense for cabinet making? I see different cutters too, again not sure what sizes I might need nor how fast they might need replacing?

I'm going to suggest that if you're starting off, you'd do well to buy this set - http://bobmarinosbesttools.com/cutter-and-domino-tenon-assortment-systainer/p/495664/ - and go from there, ordering replacement tenons as needed to restock. 

[smile]

 

[scoffelt]

I have a Domino, just finished my kitchen with Birdseye Maple cabinets and never used it once.  Frankly, I over built my cabinets in many ways even not using the Domino.  I used pocket holes as I found it the fastest and easiest to do.  When building a ton of cabinets, you can cut the parts, do pockets and assemble and move on quickly. I built the carcass out of Maple 3/4" ply, with hardwood faces and solid wood doors and drawers.  You just need them to be strong and square, the Domino is over kill in my opinion, which is just that an opinion. When making furniture, that is a different story, the Domino shines.

 

[MacMitch]

I just missed that page with the combo systainer on Bob's site although I did look for a good while. Seems kinda strange that there is no reference to the combo systainer under Tenons in the Domino area. Thanks that is exactly what I was looking for.

Interesting thoughts on pocket holes vs Domino. My concern with pocket holes is more an appearance thing. I bought the Kreg DVD on making cabinets with pocket holes. I think it got thrown away yesterday by mistake, grrr.

 

[grobin]

As for coated ply the best most durable grade is MDO; but it out gases formaldehyde as do all the outdoor ply.

If I buy the DF 500 E Set what else do I need? I see a systainer to hold tenons, looks like I have to buy each individual size to put in it? What sizes might make sense for cabinet making? I see different cutters too, again not sure what sizes I might need nor how fast they might need replacing?

I bought those and IMHO they are a good deal.  I have mostly used the 4mm and the 8mm but currently have used at least some of every size.  As that includes cutters the package is a good deal as you get a systaner, tenons and cutters as a package—Assortment!

 

[slb]

My shop is space-challenged, so the TS 55 has proven essential for breaking down sheet goods to final size without needing to recut them on the table saw either to final size or to get a cleaner edge.  It's also a lot easier on me to run the saw over the sheets than to heft 80-100lb sheets onto the table saw all day!

I use combinations of dominos and pocket screws for assembly.  Why?  I don't really trust pocket screws to hold shear loads, such as a shelf or cabinet bottom, especially in plywood or MDF.  The domino is much faster than cutting a dado or rabbet and more than strong enough.  In addition, Dominos assure very accurate alignment, whereas I have often had pocket screws pull a joint just slightly askew.  But the combination of dominos and pocket screws assures alignment and pulls the joint together tightly without fussing with clamps!

But I use pocket screws only where they can not be seen, even from the inside of the cabinet.  For example, I use dominos alone for face frame joints and to align face frames onto cabinets.  I just don't like the look of those holes, and it is too much work to plug them.

Steve

 

[MacMitch]

I did not notice the Domino assortment came with cutters, great everything in one place, true to the system. Only problem is it looks like I will need another Systainer Cart, unless... is 8' too high?

I like your strategy with Dominos and pocket holes Steve. I am thinking I will use pretty much the same idea of where to use each.

I do have a remaining question regarding pocket holes though. I have a buddy who is a major convert and he is telling me he does not even think glue is necessary most of the time. What I read suggests that the strength in these joints comes from the glue though.

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Craig Sommerfeld, owner of Kreg Tools, has said that glue isn't necessary when using pocket hole construction, but it will only add to the strength and longevity of the joint.

 

[tbellemare]

I would ask you to consider the opposite...

If using pocket holes, Domino joints, and glue
or -
pocket holes and glue only,
once the glue is set, the pocket hole screws become redundant. At best, they are the belt with suspenders.

One way to view this is that the pocket hole screws are quick, easy-to-use clamps. That's kind of how I think of them anyway.

Tom

 

[MacMitch]

Good to know what the Kreg idea is about the pocket holes. My buddy is a very experienced engineer and so I usually at least listen. I imagine there may come a time when it might be nice to have the ability to disassemble, such as in the dog kennel construction plans I am working on. My  GSD dogs can chew just about anything up.

Tom my buddy is also fond of saying you can't have too many clamps and unfortunately I don't...yet. So pocket hole clamping is a consideration especially if I can place them where they can not be seen. One of my issues preventing me from jumping on a Domino is my fear that I am short on clamps.

 

[grobin]

If you use TiteBond III which has a relatively long open time (in 80%+ humidity its 15 minutes) except in very low humidity (≤10min in

 

[MacMitch]

I am not sure I am familiar with drawbore. Unless you refer to screws/bolts that tighten in a threaded metal piece residing in the opposite work piece? I do use TiteBond III.

I am trying to design kennels/crates that have little or no wood exposed and all flat surfaces.  I'm experimenting with HDPE plastic for walls, ceiling, doors maybe even the floor. The frames/carcasses will be metal wood or structural HDPE. There have to be some sort of ventilation holes somewhere though.

 

[slb]

I would ask you to consider the opposite...

If using pocket holes, Domino joints, and glue
or -
pocket holes and glue only,
once the glue is set, the pocket hole screws become redundant. At best, they are the belt with suspenders.

One way to view this is that the pocket hole screws are quick, easy-to-use clamps. That's kind of how I think of them anyway.

Tom

I'm with you 100% Tom!  If a joint is meant to be permanent, I use glue regardless of whether there are dominos, pocket screws, or both.  The pocket screws serve mainly to pull and hold it together while the glue cures.  You need fewer clamps and can move them to the next joint sooner.  When a joint needs to be disassemblable (??), I use dominos for the alignment and shear strength, and pocket screws to pull and hold it together.  Without glue, the dominos won't hold it together.

Steve

 

[slb]

I am not sure I am familiar with drawbore. Unless you refer to screws/bolts that tighten in a threaded metal piece residing in the opposite work piece? I do use TiteBond III.

I am trying to design kennels/crates that have little or no wood exposed and all flat surfaces.  I'm experimenting with HDPE plastic for walls, ceiling, doors maybe even the floor. The frames/carcasses will be metal wood or structural HDPE. There have to be some sort of ventilation holes somewhere though.

Drawboring is the practice of drilling a hole through a mortise and tenon joint from the side, usually with the hole in the tenon offset slightly toward the shoulder, and inserting a wooden pin through the hole to lock the joint together.  The term "draw" is because the offset causes the pin to draw the tenon into the mortise tightly.  To use this technique with a domino (or any loose tenon), you must either glue the tenon into the first side and allow it to dry thoroughly before doing the mating part (so the tenon acts as if it was milled onto the first part), of you must pin both sides of the joint.  Otherwise the drawing action will just pull the domino out of the other side!

Drawboring was popular before modern glues, as it will lock a joint tightly even if the glue fails.  It is much less common today, as our glues are stronger than the wood.  If you check out articles on testing joints, e.g. in Fine Woodworking, you will see that they almost always fail by breaking the wood, not by separating the glue line.

 

[MacMitch]

Steve thanks for the explanation on drawboring.

The house I live in is a William Poole redesign of a very old Dutch Colonial home. The trim in the house is simple aprrox, 1x3 boards. The kitchen cabinets use face frames that kind of match and I plan to continue the theme for the cabinets I will make for the house. I will make some shop cabinets and some for my business that can follow the same theme or something even simpler. To complicate things a little further I need kennels/crates (over 20) as short term holding places for dogs to nap & sleep over night in. The construction of the dog quarters has some similarities to building cabinets except I plan to use some less conventional materials like: metal, HDPE plastic, plastic mesh (for floors). As it turns out HDPE is chemically resistant to glues so they will be of no help joining that material. All this adds up to a large amount of similar joinery that I would like to be well tooled for.

The original reason for the post was to help me figure out what further tools might be most helpful in my cabinet making plans. I have a very old freud router table with an even older Makitta router that no longer plunges, throw aways at this point I think. I have been considering constructing a better router table from some of the quality tops, inserts, fences... etc. available. I have the Festool 1400. I'm just not sure it is a good tool for making rails & stiles etc. for cabinet door face frames. I have also been considering a Domino. It looks like a toss up cost wise between a better router table with a Triton router and a Domino. I am getting tight on shop space and I am wondering if I have the Festool 1400 and a Domino if I can do without having a router table.

 

[tbellemare]

First, I admit that I've never tried a drawbore joint.

I would think that if the tenon was a Domino, you would want to make the mortise slightly deeper than when clamping the joint. Then, the tenon has room to "draw".

Tom

 

[upscale]

I have been thinking about pocket hole joinery construction but I am wondering if it would be easier/better to join with a Domino? My buddy/coach who actually builds furniture and more finished projects is "old school" and does most of his work on a table saw, SawStop. My buddy thinks the Domino is a gimmick.

Haven't you made this statement before? I sure am getting a distinct sense of deja vu here. Anyway, if he's using a SawStop which is relatively recent technology, it seems strange that he'd just dismiss the Domino as a gimmick. First came tenon and mortise, then came floating tenons, then there was doweling, biscuits and now Dominos. I don't include pocket holes in that list because they belong in the metal joinery group like regular nails and screws.

And finally, to answer your question on the Domino, it uses most of the wood to wood joining techniques while mostly using the advantages that all brought to the table. The only "gimmicks" I can see there are ones of convenience and capability.

 

[slb]

Steve thanks for the explanation on drawboring.

The house I live in is a William Poole redesign of a very old Dutch Colonial home. The trim in the house is simple aprrox, 1x3 boards. The kitchen cabinets use face frames that kind of match and I plan to continue the theme for the cabinets I will make for the house. I will make some shop cabinets and some for my business that can follow the same theme or something even simpler. To complicate things a little further I need kennels/crates (over 20) as short term holding places for dogs to nap & sleep over night in. The construction of the dog quarters has some similarities to building cabinets except I plan to use some less conventional materials like: metal, HDPE plastic, plastic mesh (for floors). As it turns out HDPE is chemically resistant to glues so they will be of no help joining that material. All this adds up to a large amount of similar joinery that I would like to be well tooled for.

The original reason for the post was to help me figure out what further tools might be most helpful in my cabinet making plans. I have a very old freud router table with an even older Makitta router that no longer plunges, throw aways at this point I think. I have been considering constructing a better router table from some of the quality tops, inserts, fences... etc. available. I have the Festool 1400. I'm just not sure it is a good tool for making rails & stiles etc. for cabinet door face frames. I have also been considering a Domino. It looks like a toss up cost wise between a better router table with a Triton router and a Domino. I am getting tight on shop space and I am wondering if I have the Festool 1400 and a Domino if I can do without having a router table.

Joining metal and plastics like HDPE you pretty much have to rely on mechanical fasteners like bolts - very few glues will stick!  Mortise and tenon joints wouldn't be a particularly good choice in those materials.

If you are doing square-edged rails and stiles, you would probably be ok with a router and domino.  However, if you mould or bead the edges and want to do coped joints between the rails and stiles, a router table is essential.  You can't safely rout profiles on the edges of narrow stock with a hand-held.  You'd have to rout the profile on the edge of a wide board and then rip off the narrow part afterward.  Running the narrow stuff on a router table is faster.  You can't cope the ends of rails at all without a sled on a router table.  

Of course, you can also miter the molded profiles at the corner and trim off the part that would overlap the rail, but that's somewhat fussier work that the router, domino, and router table won't help with.

Steve