getting ready to buy kapex, advice sought

[Steve Jones]

Brice,

I sincerely hope you didn't interpret my comments as personal attack, I slammed the heck out of your posting and you're attitude but in no sense wished to convey anything personal and I still believe I did not.

Anyone who reads your posts will clearly see you're probably the one remaining holdout insisting that the emperor's new clothes are pretty neat. The rest of us have spotted the emperors dangly bits swaying gently in the breeze.

I humbly apologize if you thought my comments were personal, I intended no criticism of you personally, just your rather quaint religious fervor regarding all things Festool.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Brice,

I sincerely hope you didn't interpret my comments as personal attack, I slammed the heck out of your posting and you're attitude but in no sense wished to convey anything personal and I still believe I did not.

Anyone who reads your posts will clearly see you're probably the one remaining holdout insisting that the emperor's new clothes are pretty neat. The rest of us have spotted the emperors dangly bits swaying gently in the breeze.

I humbly apologize if you thought my comments were personal, I intended no criticism of you personally, just your rather quaint religious fervor regarding all things Festool.

Steve,your comments are beyond what is necessary in terms of respectful discussion. In regards to your last post, on one hand you apologize and with the other you keep jabbing. So how is that a humble apology. How many time can you kick me in the dangly bits and I not take it personally?

 

[Greg in Memphis]

Brice
You are not alone.
I have a Kapex and absolutely love it.
Unfortunately for some, my Kapex was running perfectly right out of the box, and has been since early July.
Best darn miter saw I have ever seen or used.
Festools cost alot of money. But you get what you pay for.

For those of you out there that think ole Brice was telling a whopper for financial gain, let me run this by you...

I got a perfect Kapex. Probably checked at the dealer, maybe not, but perfect.

There is no doubt that the Kapex used for a review by Brice was thoroughly checked and rechecked by Festool before they delivered it to him. He has had no experience with failure thus far and can only inform us of what is left. That is , like I said before, the best darn saw I have ever seen or used. No company in their right mind would send a defective saw out for review.

Get it?

Brice didn't overlook, or fail to report these flaws because his saw has none.

Neither do I on both counts. But if I did have trouble with my Kapex, or have trouble in the future, this forum will probably be the first to know.

Greg

After reading through Brice's posts, I can see my error. I just took it for granted that his saw would be handpicked, and trouble free like mine and so many others.

Apologies all around for any confusion or aggravation this may have caused.

Greg

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

My first Kapex wasn't quite right (the bevel adjustment was a little rough), so it never left the store. Festool 2-day delivered a new Kapex, and that is the saw I'm currently using. Like Greg stated, you'll all be the first to know if I run into problems, but for now it is the best-performing miter saw I've had the pleasure to use.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Brice
You are not alone.
I have a Kapex and absolutely love it.
Unfortunately for some, my Kapex was running perfectly right out of the box, and has been since early July.
Best darn miter saw I have ever seen or used.
Festools cost alot of money. But you get what you pay for.

For those of you out there that think ole Brice was telling a whopper for financial gain, let me run this by you...

I got a perfect Kapex. Probably checked at the dealer, maybe not, but perfect.

There is no doubt that the Kapex used for a review by Brice was thoroughly checked and rechecked by Festool before they delivered it to him. He has had no experience with failure thus far and can only inform us of what is left. That is , like I said before, the best darn saw I have ever seen or used. No company in their right mind would send a defective saw out for review.

Get it?
Brice didn't overlook, or fail to report these flaws because his saw has none.

Neither do I on both counts. But if I did have trouble with my Kapex, or have trouble in the future, this forum will probably be the first to know.

Greg

Greg, my saw rolled out of the warehouse unchecked, it was the dealers that checked the saw shipped before the release date. I received my saw before the release date, the carton was unopened, it was not checked before leaving Festool's warehouse. I've stated this many times on this site but here it is again, my saw did develop a version of the scraping problem. The problem surfaced mid July and was reported and well documented (with detailed descriptions and photos) in one of the threads here just like I do when I have great things to say about a Festool product.

 

[Steve Jones]

Brice,

C'mon, you may have grimaced, but there must have a been a small grin in response to my post.

You and I must agree to disagree (and I promise to never get personal over it) I happen to think the Kapex has issues, you believe it to be perfect and will defend it to your last breath, I can live with that, I don't have a burning desire to convert you. You have a perfect right to your opinion.

It's just that I have this a character flaw, every time I see someone on a soapbox I can't help myself, I have to kick it a little to see how shaky it is. And you must admit, your soapbox has been getting a workout lately.

Greg,

While I may delight in disagreeing with Brice and question his opinion, even his grasp of the facts, I have never considered for a moment that he was lying for financial gain, and I have never, ever got close to implying that. I resent your implication. I may claim he's misguided or mistaken, I happen to believe he's honestly trying to help others with his advice,

I just think he's wrong.

I don't hate him, in fact I have a great deal of respect for him. I think part of his defense for the Kapex is because he has one that works ok, plus a little defense of his original review of the product (he can hardly now come out on the side of the team that would like to see a few improvements) if all this trouble dies down and the Kapex goes on for years unchanged he will be vindicated and I will sit down to a large bowl of crow..

If on the other hand a new model appears next year, with a few of the improvements I suggested in my small review.... he might come to agree with me.

 

[nickao]

"No company in their right mind would send a defective saw out for review". No company in their right mind would release a tool with such a high failure rate either, but they still did it.

In Brices' defense he did mention his saw had stiffness in the miter movement.

Brice getting a perfect unit and the public not getting a perfect unit does not make the situation seem any less fishy.

I still question how so many can have two or three failures and some none. If you just got a new Kapex does it have the newer part that is the "fix"? If not, how can two identical saws operate differently, something is amiss in the quality control.

Even if a new model does not come to pass the fact remains the initial release was kind of a catastrophe. Festool would be remiss not to come out with a new unit as I see no other way to get back the customers that have sworn them off because of the problem. if nothing else they probably want the entire situation to go away. But coming out with a new saw will seem to some as they are admitting a problem therefore alienating the ones that purchased the original. it a sticky situation and I am glad I do not have to make the decisions there.

I do think a perfectly functioning Kapex would be one of the best saws out there - if price were not a factor.

 

[MiterMaster]

I still question how so many can have two or three failures and some none.

My take on this is that some users, myself included, are more finicky than others.  We all know I've been through a few Kapex's until I got one that was spot-on perfect.  All the ones I went through, I inspected every inch of the saw, made sure everything was true and square, and hindsight being 20/20 - I feel I was a little over zealous in my quest for perfection.

So, what to many would be considered "perfect", to me and perhaps others that have made complaints, not so perfect.  The one I have now I assure you is perfect in every way, it is truly a delight to use, and easily the most accurate saw I have ever owned.

Mike

 

[mastercabman]

The Kapex does have a detent override.
Brice, you are incorrect.  a detent override turns off and dis-engages the detent locking, what the Kapex has is a detent release. go try any cheap Dewalt miter saw, they come with two detent controls, a release and an override. it's a usefull feature that certainly should be on any well designed miter saw. (it's also a feature that should be familiar to anyone reviewing professional equipment)

I respectfully disagree. I agree that the Dewalt saws have a system to disengage the miter detents, but which other saws have that feature? I know for sure that what is widely considered the premier miter saw series (Makita sliders) have no such system, neither does the Hitachi saws, I don't think the Bosch saws have it, and I don't think the new Milwaukee saws have it either. I agree that sounds like a nice feature, but I've never missed it, it's completely natural for me to just depress the thumb button to get past the detents. I'm just saying that it sounds like you're making a jab specifically at one saw, where maybe you could say you really like the feature and wish it was available on more than one or two brands of saw? 

The bosch saws has the miter over ride.This was one of the reason i took my Kapex back.
It was to hard to dial in small increment.
For the price,the saw should be perfect.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

I stand corrected 

 

[nickao]

On my Ridgid you roll a thumb wheel down and the saw stops at the angles most widely used(detents). Roll the thumb wheel up and the saw swings left and right skipping the detents. You do NOT have to hold the thumb wheel up to skip the detents, it stays that way until you roll it back down.

So what system does my saw have? Sounds like just semantics to me.

nickao

 

[Bro]

..........The bottom line is the facts should be represented correctly,
If only the writer was aware of the actual facts, rather than a uncontrolled urge to blindly defend the product regardless of those facts.

I read your review on your own Festool web site.  It is totally bias and you are obviously in bed with Festool.   How many negitive issues did you bring up?  That review was nothing more than promotional literature.

You don't agree with me so you start personal attacks.  Is this how you think a discussion should take place? I hope you guys feel good about your behavior here.

I offer this to you both, if you are ever in Pittsburgh contact me and I'll let try out my Kapex. That way you'll be able to see for yourself the saw works just like I said it does (and as Festool advertises it).

Brice, my issue is, that despite all the issues with the Kapex you still recommend the saw?  How can you do that?  Some guys have taken back 4 saws?!!  I don't want to repeat myself but the handle is uncomfortable and the safety trigger sucks.  Just because they do it in Europe make sthe design OK?  Guys are taking apart the safety trigger  so it no longer works!  Guys are grinding the blade guard so it doesn't grab on corners!  They are changing parts in the miter table!  All this on a saw that you stated was the best, a saw that costs $1,300.00 , a saw you recommend. 

Mr Jones is right about the detent override and also correct in stating you should know what one is if you are doing professional review. Your blade guard didn't grab when you reviewed it? 

This brings me to my finail question...what is your relationship with Festool?

 

[peter halle]

Bro:

Welcome to the forum.  I am so sorry to read that you have decided that the the Kapex is not the saw for you.  I have been read every single post on this forum regarding the Kapex and have debated myself whether or not to spend my hard earned money for it.  Much like you I have been in the construction business since 1983 and have used many different tools in the path of making a living or else enjoying working with wood.

That being said, although I respect your rights to freedom of speech - although they don't exist in this case because this is a privately owned forum - I respectfully offer the following suggestion - If you haven't read the book on how to win friends and influence enemies you might consider taking the time.  If trolling is a hobby, then please realize that the original definition of trolling involved dragging a fishing lure behind a moving boat.  Although Festool markets their tools to boatbuilders, I don't see a mention of a boat in this post.

Brice has offered his time, opinions, knowledge, and support to everyone here for a long time.  As of right now, I don't see your contributions quite matching up.  You may have your thoughts and feelings towards Festool and their products, but your treatment of Brice in your postings  is frankly childish, rude, and should not be tolerated by any member of this forum.

That being said, please have an enjoyable evening.

Peter

 

[Brice Burrell]

Peter, thanks for your support, it means a lot!

Bro, I think you read my review with your own Festool bias engaged. The following quotes are from my review (copyright 2008).

    ......I used my 7" Incra guaranteed square, with bright sunlight backlighting the square to check the fence for square. As you can see in this photo there is a small amount of light visible. After checking both fences all along entire range of travel this gap was relatively consistent. The picture makes it look like there is much more of a gap then there really is. Without the strong backlighting the gap is undetectable. I?m satisfied that this saw?s fences are at a right angle to the saw bed............

Here I'm pointing out the that a very small gap exists in the fence.

...........The lasers didn't check out. Both were off by 1/32". Since other Kapex owners abroad have commented that their saw?s lasers were perfectly set at the factory I was a little surprised by this..........

Misaligned lasers here.

.............The last thing I wanted to check was the machining on the fence extensions. I removed the fences to have a look at the quality of the machining, it was fine, but there was a burr left from the process. These burrs was very thin and extended part of the length of the both fence. I was able to easily remove it with my fingernail. The burrs themselves didn't interfere with the operation of the fences. However, if the burr was to break loose of the fence and lodge into the slot, perhaps then, the fence could bind.........

There burrs left be the machining left behind and I was concerned they might cause the fence to bind.

.............Moving the saw back and forth setting the miter angle is a bit stiff, that may just be because of the tight tolerances and the fact the saw is new.............

Stiff movement of the miter table.

........I noticed the sound of metal to metal when adjusting the bevel, so took the back of the saw off to see what was making the sound. It?s the bevel locking device that makes this sound. The bevel lock rides along a steel flange (that also acts as the stops for the bevel setting); in this picture you can see a small line where the lock rides along the flange. I don't see this doing damage to the saw, but time will tell.........

Concern for the metal on metal sound might be a long term issue.

......The Kapex?s power switch (trigger) is two stage like the TS plunge cut saws, with one difference. The trigger must be pressed part way to lower the saw blade, then the safety button then the trigger can be pressed all the way to the ?On? position. At first I found this very awkward...........

I mention that I felt the handle was awkward.

.........The Kapex is manufactured with relatively tight tolerances. The good part is that the saw is precise, with almost no slop or deflection, this produces great cuts. The other side is the saw is a little stiff in the mitering and beveling of the saw............

The issue of stiffness is brought up again.

...........Of course the blade can deflect also, some people prefer full kerf blade for bevel cuts compound miters. I like thin kerf blades, but my first choice is to use a full kerf on a thicker, stiffer blade for mitering (bevel cut) tall hardwood baseboard. The Kapex blades are 2.5 mm (around 3/32?) they fit into the thin kerf category.........

I state I preferred a full kerf blade.

.........The point being, take look at the type of material being used and weigh it against the standard of cleanliness for the job..........

Here's a very practical comment on the Kapex's dust collection.

Here are some other things discovered during use. When cutting stock standing up in the saw, using the portion of the blade above the arbor, you're limited to about 7/8? thickness. You can see from the picture part of the saw gets in the way of thicker stock being cut on a 45? miter to the right.

With the saw?s fences extensions on the saw won't bevel to 45?, this is the case with all miter saws. The bevel gauge (scale) also can get in the way of the fence extension when mitering to 60?.

Sometimes the dust shroud can interfere with aligning and making a cut.............

There is one thing I don't like about the blade guard: it can get hung up on the long point of a miter.........   

I think the excerpts here speak for themselves.

I ask that you guys please read my comments without your bias towards Festool or me. I'm a real user with real opinions and they aren't always raving about Festool products. My reviews are far more balanced than some of you guys give my credit for.

Bro, Festool has provided the Kapex and few router accessories to me (free) for review purposes.

EDIT: I forgot to add this, yes I would recommend the Kapex. My experience is the saw is the best on the market. If you happen to get a bad saw your experience will be different. Festool will fix or replace any defective saw so it isn't much of a risk buying one.

 

[Scott W.]

Brice,

You don't have to defend yourself or your integrity.
Anyone who does any research or has been here for a time will realize you know what you are doing and are a straight shooter.

Scott W.

 

[Steveo48]

Not being a professional carpenter myself, can someone who is a pro explain to me how the Kapex can earn you money and save you time as compared to a more moderate priced saw.   

Thanks,

Justin

Any real measure will have productivity tied to it.  It's a lot of money to spend for a saw just because it's "light weight", or "it gives a smooth cut".

 

[Steveo48]

My reviews are far more balanced than some of you guys give my credit for.

Reviews are always nice to give you a starting point, but the ultimate decision to buy still lies on me.  I only own two Festools and avoid some simply because of the over-the-top comments I often read.

The only 2 Kapex I've seen have been sitting in my local Rockler.  Both had the problem with the table.

If you are a tool collector and have money to burn, or make your living behind a saw and don't mind doing a lot of tuning up, buy one, but keep in mind we've been doing this kind of work for years without it.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

My reviews are far more balanced than some of you guys give my credit for.

Reviews are always nice to give you a starting point, but the ultimate decision to buy still lies on me.  I only own two Festools and avoid some simply because of the over-the-top comments I often read.

The only 2 Kapex I've seen have been sitting in my local Rockler.  Both had the problem with the table.

If you are a tool collector and have money to burn, or make your living behind a saw and don't mind doing a lot of tuning up, buy one, but keep in mind we've been doing this kind of work for years without it.

Steve, I think you bring up a few great points here. First of all, reviews (regardless of whether they are written by Brice, Fine Homebuilding, Tools of the Trade, etc...) are simply starting points, and the more in-depth reviews there are of a particular product the better, because then you can get a variety of different takes on the same product, and so I am thankful that Brice took the time to give us one more in-depth analysis of the tool.

The other point you brought up is it seems like we've got quite a spread of users on this forum, everything from garage tinkerers to tool hounds to contractors to furniture makers, and everybody is going to have different needs and wants. Heck, even amongst the different categories there will be different wants. So, when some users make blanket statements like "The Kapex is overrated" or "The Kapex is no better than any other saw, why would anybody spend the money on it", I would prefer that they say something more like "The Kapex doesn't fit my needs, or is more expensive than what I want to spend for its capabilities, or I personally don't see the difference between the Kapex and other saws", because then it's expressed as a personal opinion rather than a fact. I think that if more opinions would be expressed this way we'd have a little less rancor regarding some of these topics.

For example, I will say that I personally work more quickly and accurately using the Kapex versus other saws on the market. I don't think it's perfect, but for my personal wants and needs it exceeds the performance of the other available saws on the market. 

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

..........The bottom line is the facts should be represented correctly,
If only the writer was aware of the actual facts, rather than a uncontrolled urge to blindly defend the product regardless of those facts.

I read your review on your own Festool web site.  It is totally bias and you are obviously in bed with Festool.   How many negitive issues did you bring up?  That review was nothing more than promotional literature.

You don't agree with me so you start personal attacks.  Is this how you think a discussion should take place? I hope you guys feel good about your behavior here.

I offer this to you both, if you are ever in Pittsburgh contact me and I'll let try out my Kapex. That way you'll be able to see for yourself the saw works just like I said it does (and as Festool advertises it).

Brice, my issue is, that despite all the issues with the Kapex you still recommend the saw?  How can you do that?  Some guys have taken back 4 saws?!!  I don't want to repeat myself but the handle is uncomfortable and the safety trigger sucks.  Just because they do it in Europe make sthe design OK?  Guys are taking apart the safety trigger  so it no longer works!  Guys are grinding the blade guard so it doesn't grab on corners!  They are changing parts in the miter table!  All this on a saw that you stated was the best, a saw that costs $1,300.00 , a saw you recommend. 

Mr Jones is right about the detent override and also correct in stating you should know what one is if you are doing professional review. Your blade guard didn't grab when you reviewed it? 

This brings me to my finail question...what is your relationship with Festool?

Bro, I think you need to qualify some of your statements. YOU think the safety trigger sucks and YOU think that the handle is uncomfortable. That's fine. But I think it might be viewed as being somewhat less confrontational if you stated that as an opinion rather than fact. I happen to like the handle and safety trigger, probably because my previous Makita saws had an almost identical configuration. Saw guard hanging-up on cuts? Yeah, my guard hangs-up from time to time. But so has the guard on every Makita, Bosch, Hitachi, Ridgid, Milwaukee, and certainly the Dewalt saws that I've ever used. Is it annoying? Yes, but you just need to plan your cut ahead of time and anticipate situations where you are likely to run into the problem.

You also brought up the price tag. Yup, it's $1300, and may sometimes require some tweaking (lasers, etc..). So what? Sometimes people are forgetting that this saw is not really targeted for the weekend warrior crowd, it's marketed towards the guys who are going to buy it and use it to make money. If the saw doesn't help a guy work any faster than any other saw, then yeah it's probably not worth the price tag and they should just return the saw for their money back But for the other users for whom the saw increases accuracy and production, heck, I bet Festool could jack the price tag to $2k and you'd still see guys buying it. Bottom line, if the saw will pay for itself and earn the user money I'm going to go buy it, regardless of price tag, and Festool knows it, that's why their prices are so much higher (look at the RO150 compared to Makita BO6040).

Anyways, this goes back to I think people should be stating things as opinions rather than facts. For instance, "I don't want to repeat myself but the handle is uncomfortable and the safety trigger sucks" could be changed to "In my opinion, I find the handle to be uncomfortable and I don;t much care for the safety trigger." 

 

[rnt80]

In regards to the nature of posts and their intended purpose....well stated Tom.  I have to say as a high school teacher who gets to hear teenagers pop off at each other all week it is horribly frustrating to come to this forum and see the same thing from a bunch of grown men.  I would hope that, if nothing else, we could agree to disagree on some topics without having to resort to some of the name calling and inuindo that we've seen here as of late.
The original Kapex I got had to be returned and the second one needed a new plate.  I was able to use the Microsoft cashback program and an ebay coupon so the saw only cost me $950.  I don't think I would have ever paid $1300 for it.  For the money I paid it is a great saw.  I don't use the saw on a daily basis so I don't bring to the table what some of the other members do but I can say that for my needs (custom furniture, cabinetry,etc.) it certainly fits the bill.  I do think that the lower half of the saw is not what it could be.  Another member once wrote that it seemed like Festool spent all of their money and time on the upper half and then rushed the lower.  I think that pretty much sums it up.  The dust collection is great (when hooked up to an appropriate sized hose), the lasers are dead on and the cut is extremely smooth.