Goliath to slay Shaper Origin ?

[antss]

Tim - few advertisements (websites) highlight or even mention their product's shortcomings.

The only ones I can think of offhand are drug co.'s and financial services.  And they do so only because the Federal Govnt. mandates they do so.

I do agree with you that this and the origin are not replacements for a traditional CNC machine.

 

[tallgrass]

I have large cnc machines and small one and portable ones. I have also used the Shaper. I also have a comprehensive supply of festoool and other manufacturer's tools and hand tools. each one has its strong points and weaknesses. there is a saying , if all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. there is no super solution, no solution that will satisfy all. there is a reason when going into a tool supply store there is not just one tool to buy to handle all situations. my technical background is mechanical engineering, so I am kind of addicted to tech...)

 

[ben_r_]

Oh yea, if it works as claimed, can release on time and they figure out some dust collection it'll kill the Shaper Origin. There'd be no place for it. Why handhold/babysit when you can let the machine do its thing.

 

[Svar]

Oh yea, if it works as claimed, can release on time and they figure out some dust collection it'll kill the Shaper Origin. There'd be no place for it. Why handhold/babysit when you can let the machine do its thing.

Dust collection is a simple add on feature that even the user could figure out.
I think the Origin is inherently more rigid and precise. Spindle there moves into final position by lead screws and the orientation in space is optical. Compare that to rubber tires and radio communication of Goliath.
I'd like to see a merger of both concepts.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Oh yea, if it works as claimed, can release on time and they figure out some dust collection it'll kill the Shaper Origin. There'd be no place for it. Why handhold/babysit when you can let the machine do its thing.

Dust collection is a simple add on feature that even the user could figure out.
I think the Origin is inherently more rigid and precise. Spindle there moves into final position by lead screws and the orientation in space is optical. Compare that to rubber tires and radio communication of Goliath.
I'd like to see a merger of both concepts.

Agree. Add a low precision X/Y rig to the Shaper to free up the human. Gear-motorized threaded rods with limit switches for the Shaper/sled. The Shaper can keep track of where it is and adjust to the slowly changing location.

 

[Svar]

Oh yea, if it works as claimed, can release on time and they figure out some dust collection it'll kill the Shaper Origin. There'd be no place for it. Why handhold/babysit when you can let the machine do its thing.

Dust collection is a simple add on feature that even the user could figure out.
I think the Origin is inherently more rigid and precise. Spindle there moves into final position by lead screws and the orientation in space is optical. Compare that to rubber tires and radio communication of Goliath.
I'd like to see a merger of both concepts.

Agree. Add a low precision X/Y rig to the Shaper to free up the human. Gear-motorized threaded rods with limit switches for the Shaper/sled. The Shaper can keep track of where it is and adjust to the slowly changing location.

Also add Handibot to the mix:https://handibot.com/index.php

 

[antss]

Do all/most of you considering one of this mini CNCs already utilize a CNC machine ?

More to the point, do you already have the requisite programming skills to make one of these useful, or will you need to learn or hire someone to make these work?

 

[nclemmons]

I have a small CNC machine and have been using Fusion 360 for a couple of years.  It's free to hobbyists and one of the most powerful design / CAD / rendering products out there.  That said, Shaper doesn't require CAD - you can draw in just about any drawing program and send the file to Shaper as a .SVG file and trace from that.

I'm on the first batch for delivery and will report back here on my experiences with it.  Hopefully in the next couple of weeks!

 

[rmwarren]

I have several small machines including the Handibot & Shapeoko 3. Also have licenses for V-Carve (Handibot), MeshCAM, Fusion & Carbide Create. I have done some design in Sketchup & used Sketchucam for the toolpaths. Each CAD/CAM package has it's own learning curve.

As noted by [member=167]neilc[/member] the Shaper does not require CAM or even CAD, which it the game-changer for me. I am somewhat skilled in Fusion & very comfortable designing in Sketchup but creating toolpaths is another layer of complexity. Being a sometimes user I end up making mistakes that don't show up until midway thru cutting so there are a lot of do-overs.

IMHO there are 2 major innovations in the Shaper, one being the freehand form factor but more importantly for everyday use is the onboard CAM. Anyone who has experience in traditional CAD/CAM workflows should appreciate the ability to have the onboard motion control software take over CAM.

Additional functionality like being able to cut a pocket, test fit and then go back and enlarge it by a few thou if necessary is also going to be useful. Also simple shapes like a pocket or hole can be handled onboard eliminating the need for any CAD design.

I expect the Shaper to totally replace the Shapeoko and Handibot. There is not much they can do that the Shaper cannot do and by all appearances easier as well. I may keep the Shapeoko for milling AL, not sure yet. Would really like to recapture that 6.6 SF of horizontal surface in the shop for another use.

RMW

Do all/most of you considering one of this mini CNCs already utilize a CNC machine ?

More to the point, do you already have the requisite programming skills to make one of these useful, or will you need to learn or hire someone to make these work?

 

[tallgrass]

I am a ME and have cnc machines ranging from the handibot up to a 5x10 commercial cnc router. On the metal side i have tradition lathes and mills and cnc lathes and mills up to 5 axis several ton beasts. I also actually have a SHAPER. First i love it. it fills  a niche in my work flow. First lets get one thing clear. It will not replace any working cnc router or mill. that is not what its forte is. you need to think of it as a router with a computer template capacity. if you were going to make a template for your classical hand held router, this is better, in most cases. when you look at a project and think router and jigs reach for this. Its capacity is more obviously, however it is not a replacement for classic router cnc applications. The tape has its limitations, it will effect work flow, and your cutting strategy must be thought through and take it into account. It is not a power work horse. t is well made and feels like it will hold up. However it is not a 2kw motor router spinning monster cutters. you also can not do 3d contouring.  At best 2.5D. this is not a deal breaker but you must keep in mind.

As far as work flow. It is a different kettle of fish to the classic cnc. This one is far more intuitive to the person familiar with a router and a cell phone. Where the classic cnc is CAD CAM and a great deal of set up and dealing with feeds and speeds. The recipe of classic cnc can be challenging with a number of disciplines to get your head around. The SHAPER has a work flow that is much closer to router and jig. once work piece is taped the SHAPER can be placed on work piece and you can start. almost on the fly. This is shown well in their videos.You ca also import g code from you usual work flow and go from there. oddly i think the SHAPER is harder for the experienced cnc  operator than the beginner. There is a greater sense of freedom with the SHAPER and the ability to work at the piece. Thinking things though, so to speak. The shaper has not replaced any of my cnc machines, it has augmented their capacity. it is more of threat to my stable of Festool routers and jigs than the cnc machines. it should be noted that operator proficiency is key to good results. you can make a hash out things easily. you need to develop a feel for what you are doing and what it can handle. it is a bit of a dance. Overall it is a great addition. Impressive. A magic carpet curing all of your wood working shortcoming and solving all your needs, no. A powerful tool to expand thoughtful workflow , absolutely.

 

[nclemmons]

Just got my Shaper this week.  Build quality is first rate.  Software auto updated when I connected it to WiFi.  Have not yet cut anything but the active Shaper community suggests it has a lot of potential from early work examples. 

Tallgrass, appreciate your POV and look forward to seeing how you use it.

Will share more as I learn and explore.

Neil

 

[Cheese]

As far as work flow. It is a different kettle of fish to the classic cnc. This one is far more intuitive to the person familiar with a router and a cell phone.

Some interesting thoughts you've generated.

Let's take an example of the average guy...say me for instance. [big grin] 

I'm capable of creating 2D Autocad CAD drawings...that's it, no 3D, no vector stuff, g code, FEA or anything else along those lines. Worse yet, I'm really not interested in generating all of those other things.  [tongue] 

So...
How would I be impacted if I purchased a Shaper and just wanted to use it?

Would my current skill level allow me to produce items easily with the Shaper?

What else would I need to learn to efficiently use the Shaper?

 

[rmwarren]

As far as work flow. It is a different kettle of fish to the classic cnc. This one is far more intuitive to the person familiar with a router and a cell phone.

Some interesting thoughts you've generated.

Let's take an example of the average guy...say me for instance. [big grin] 

I'm capable of creating 2D Autocad CAD drawings...that's it, no 3D, no vector stuff, g code, FEA or anything else along those lines. Worse yet, I'm really not interested in generating all of those other things.  [tongue] 

So...
How would I be impacted if I purchased a Shaper and just wanted to use it?

Would my current skill level allow me to produce items easily with the Shaper?

What else would I need to learn to efficiently use the Shaper?

[member=44099]Cheese[/member] - I haven't received my SO yet but have spent many hours obsessing over studying it.

To use the SO all you need are 2D files in SVG format. There is a plugin for F360 that will generate them from 3D model and has some nice feature like identifying inside versus outside cuts but that can also be handled on-tool easily. A new SO owner also wrote a Sketchup plugin but I haven't see it in action yet.

I believe most any drawing software can save as SVG. Apparently there are a ton of free graphic files available online like kitty cats, bunnies, AR-15's...

Their delivery pace has ramped up dramatically in the past week, I may only have to continue taking Valium for another month or so.

RMW

 

[Cheese]

Good to know Richard, thanks for the info. I'll check on the Autocad/SVG thing.  [smile]

Hmmmm AR-15...maybe right next to the laser level...

 

[Gjarman12]

It is amazing what you can do “on-tool”. Shapes, such as circles, rectangles and lines are a breeze. Off-setting, inlaying, mortises, concentric circles, dados, creating a grid as a reference to do so many things and even so much more.
All of this without touching a computer.
Box joints are also coming at some point.

 

[nclemmons]

There are a couple of guys on the Shaper forum that are starting to create very simple web-based tools that will export an SVG file.  They include rectangles, circles, hole layouts like for an MFT, finger joints, etc.  Enter a few numbers, generate a file, download to a flash drive and load into Shaper.  Shaper with this type of download can easily replicate the LR32 for 32mm hole spacing.  Heck, jump to 16mm spacing for more adjustability if you want.  In time, more could live 'on-tool' but there's no reason it could not be smartphone-app enabled for easy and fast utility to create and share to on-tool cutting.

I think you will see more of these capabilities showing up 'on-tool' in time as the Shaper team releases new updates.  There are already plug-ins for Fusion 360 and as of this week Sketchup for generating a SVG file from a face in a drawing and downloading it.  So the momentum has the potential to continue to build.

Follow-ons I expect will be sharing of completed designs - whether CAD files or SVG downloads for others to reuse or edit for their own use.

We've all see plans with 'materials lists' or 'cultists'  - but they have been limited by size / cost of the equipment.  Shaper is expensive to start but in time will enable some really interesting redefinition of 'woodworking'

 

[rmwarren]

There are a couple of guys on the Shaper forum that are starting to create very simple web-based tools that will export an SVG file.  They include rectangles, circles, hole layouts like for an MFT, finger joints, etc.  Enter a few numbers, generate a file, download to a flash drive and load into Shaper.  Shaper with this type of download can easily replicate the LR32 for 32mm hole spacing.  Heck, jump to 16mm spacing for more adjustability if you want.  In time, more could live 'on-tool' but there's no reason it could not be smartphone-app enabled for easy and fast utility to create and share to on-tool cutting.

I think you will see more of these capabilities showing up 'on-tool' in time as the Shaper team releases new updates.  There are already plug-ins for Fusion 360 and as of this week Sketchup for generating a SVG file from a face in a drawing and downloading it.  So the momentum has the potential to continue to build.

Follow-ons I expect will be sharing of completed designs - whether CAD files or SVG downloads for others to reuse or edit for their own use.

We've all see plans with 'materials lists' or 'cultists'  - but they have been limited by size / cost of the equipment.  Shaper is expensive to start but in time will enable some really interesting redefinition of 'woodworking'

Yea That online script let's you enter a hole diameter, center to center spacing, # of holes per row and column and presto instant MFT template file. Download as SVG and be cutting in minutes.

The SO also let's you cut a hole and then fine tune by recutting with an offset measured in thousandths. No fuss fine tuning to fit your dog's.

Someone did an mft top and checked the parallel and perpendicular result and the we're within a few thou.

Dang I can't wait...

RMW.

 

[rmwarren]

Just got my Shaper this week.  Build quality is first rate.  Software auto updated when I connected it to WiFi.  Have not yet cut anything but the active Shaper community suggests it has a lot of potential from early work examples. 

Tallgrass, appreciate your POV and look forward to seeing how you use it.

Will share more as I learn and explore.

Neil

Neil, you GOT IT THIS WEEK and you HAVEN'T CUT ANYTHING???

Shame!

RMW.

 

[rst]

I got mine Monday but other than unpacking haven't had time to use...been too busy moving snow.  I'm 65 now and moving half mile of snow between my house (double lot in town), in-laws (large corner lot), and business (in town, corner, three storefronts and parking lot), this is getting OLD.  I've spent every extra moment watching vids and deciding what to do first.

 

[nclemmons]

Richard - it showed up late Tuesday.  Been tied up with work.  I'll get underway with it before the weekend is out, after dealing with our Chicago snowstorm - 9-12" on the way!