Goliath to slay Shaper Origin ?
- Thread starter antss
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As far as work flow. It is a different kettle of fish to the classic cnc. This one is far more intuitive to the person familiar with a router and a cell phone.
Some interesting thoughts you've generated.
Let's take an example of the average guy...say me for instance.
I'm capable of creating 2D Autocad CAD drawings...that's it, no 3D, no vector stuff, g code, FEA or anything else along those lines. Worse yet, I'm really not interested in generating all of those other things.
So...
How would I be impacted if I purchased a Shaper and just wanted to use it?
Would my current skill level allow me to produce items easily with the Shaper?
What else would I need to learn to efficiently use the Shaper?
I have probably 40+ hours on my "SO" it is holding up wonderfully. This a unique tool. Unlike classic cnc you can work right from the tool. this is fantastic. So as for you experience, the more comfortable you are with cad the better. Knowing more is always better than knowing less. However this machine is fundamentally different. while the basics of tool position and offsets ect. are there they manifest in a far more intuitive fashion. this is good. The general term for feeds and speed and which tooling is generally referred to as the recipe, in lang. Getting that right can be quite a nightmare. This tool is closer to the hand held router in ease. The big downside it the serious restriction in how the cutting goes. This can not be over estimated. You must carefully think out how you are going to make your cuts. this is the big divergence from the classical cnc. since the router base has to remain stable and there must be sufficient coherent pattern always visible. So you can't just go back and for forth and go haphazardly around your work piece. in cnc applications the actual reference is the part of the material in contact with the table or bed, simply. the SO is the opposite. the reference is what the router base is sliding on. This means that all stock removal must not interfere with the stability of the base nor can the indexing tape pattern be degraded to the point the positional lock is lost. This makes a great deal of what is done with cnc off limits for this machine. There are some work arounds and things will improve. However if you are thinking of comparing this to a gantry cnc, you will be sorely disappointed. As i have said, think of this as a router with computer template abilities. In that vain it is fantastic. Do not take my assessment of the restrictions as a negative. I love the machine. However it is a tightly focused tool . In that vain it is great. As a general cnc solution, not so much.
Some interesting thoughts you've generated.
Let's take an example of the average guy...say me for instance.
I'm capable of creating 2D Autocad CAD drawings...that's it, no 3D, no vector stuff, g code, FEA or anything else along those lines. Worse yet, I'm really not interested in generating all of those other things.
So...
How would I be impacted if I purchased a Shaper and just wanted to use it?
Would my current skill level allow me to produce items easily with the Shaper?
What else would I need to learn to efficiently use the Shaper?
I have probably 40+ hours on my "SO" it is holding up wonderfully. This a unique tool. Unlike classic cnc you can work right from the tool. this is fantastic. So as for you experience, the more comfortable you are with cad the better. Knowing more is always better than knowing less. However this machine is fundamentally different. while the basics of tool position and offsets ect. are there they manifest in a far more intuitive fashion. this is good. The general term for feeds and speed and which tooling is generally referred to as the recipe, in lang. Getting that right can be quite a nightmare. This tool is closer to the hand held router in ease. The big downside it the serious restriction in how the cutting goes. This can not be over estimated. You must carefully think out how you are going to make your cuts. this is the big divergence from the classical cnc. since the router base has to remain stable and there must be sufficient coherent pattern always visible. So you can't just go back and for forth and go haphazardly around your work piece. in cnc applications the actual reference is the part of the material in contact with the table or bed, simply. the SO is the opposite. the reference is what the router base is sliding on. This means that all stock removal must not interfere with the stability of the base nor can the indexing tape pattern be degraded to the point the positional lock is lost. This makes a great deal of what is done with cnc off limits for this machine. There are some work arounds and things will improve. However if you are thinking of comparing this to a gantry cnc, you will be sorely disappointed. As i have said, think of this as a router with computer template abilities. In that vain it is fantastic. Do not take my assessment of the restrictions as a negative. I love the machine. However it is a tightly focused tool . In that vain it is great. As a general cnc solution, not so much.
Cheese
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- Jan 16, 2015
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tallgrass said:
Hey tallgrass, thanks for the feedback. A couple more questions.
Does the dust extraction work well enough so that you don't have to stop periodically and clean off the indexing/locating tape?
Have you just drawn a straight line, say 4-5' long and tried to follow it? If so, how accurate/straight was the cut?
bluedog18
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- May 20, 2017
- Messages
- 9
I’m in the same boat as you, clearing the snow and ice from my place plus my parents and their bakery here in PA. And work has been emotional draining this week. I’m hoping to start using my SO this Sunday. My 5yr old daughter and I have plans for Saturday.rst said:
Hey tallgrass, thanks for the feedback. A couple more questions.
Does the dust extraction work well enough so that you don't have to stop periodically and clean off the indexing/locating tape?
Have you just drawn a straight line, say 4-5' long and tried to follow it? If so, how accurate/straight was the cut?
Ok, ill try to answer you.
As far as dust extraction goes and the tape. There are 2 possible answers to this. The dust extraction so far has been fairly good. however being that it is vacuum related and not forced air and vacuum that needs to be kept in mind, if you are going to stepping down for deeper repeated cuts. The other problem is that if you are cutting over the matrix tape, you may have problems. if enough of it is compromised you will loose your lock. it is very important to think about the work flow, in terms as how you cut out your pattern. you must try not to cut into the tapes that s used in your tape lock. So if in the process of your cutting you destroy enough take that is require, you loose. I know i keep repeating this but it is an important consideration before your cutting begins. So you do not have to place tape where you are cutting but in a constellation around what you are cutting that the camera can see through out the cutting process. This becomes clear after a little use. so you do not have to put the tape on the area of the cut. actually you should try to avoid this as much as possible.
As far as accuracy is concerned. a fair bit of that is in your hands. it is important to develop a smooth and steady technique. the closer you are to the line the better. So far i have found it to be quite accurate. i have run long strait cuts, "over 12" for the purposes of testing and it does a good job. though i plan of testing cuts from it and my other machines to see the differences. I suspect there will be some for of artifact that present itself as the resolution of the testing increases. I do a great deal of tight tolerance work so i am curious how it will compare. So in the range you are interested it has been very good. i admit that i am still always kind of smiling after a cut. As a mechanical engineer, i am just impressed on what it must be doing in real time to get this done. Again your technique has a bearing on the output.
Does the dust extraction work well enough so that you don't have to stop periodically and clean off the indexing/locating tape?
Have you just drawn a straight line, say 4-5' long and tried to follow it? If so, how accurate/straight was the cut?
Ok, ill try to answer you.
As far as dust extraction goes and the tape. There are 2 possible answers to this. The dust extraction so far has been fairly good. however being that it is vacuum related and not forced air and vacuum that needs to be kept in mind, if you are going to stepping down for deeper repeated cuts. The other problem is that if you are cutting over the matrix tape, you may have problems. if enough of it is compromised you will loose your lock. it is very important to think about the work flow, in terms as how you cut out your pattern. you must try not to cut into the tapes that s used in your tape lock. So if in the process of your cutting you destroy enough take that is require, you loose. I know i keep repeating this but it is an important consideration before your cutting begins. So you do not have to place tape where you are cutting but in a constellation around what you are cutting that the camera can see through out the cutting process. This becomes clear after a little use. so you do not have to put the tape on the area of the cut. actually you should try to avoid this as much as possible.
As far as accuracy is concerned. a fair bit of that is in your hands. it is important to develop a smooth and steady technique. the closer you are to the line the better. So far i have found it to be quite accurate. i have run long strait cuts, "over 12" for the purposes of testing and it does a good job. though i plan of testing cuts from it and my other machines to see the differences. I suspect there will be some for of artifact that present itself as the resolution of the testing increases. I do a great deal of tight tolerance work so i am curious how it will compare. So in the range you are interested it has been very good. i admit that i am still always kind of smiling after a cut. As a mechanical engineer, i am just impressed on what it must be doing in real time to get this done. Again your technique has a bearing on the output.
Tom the Remodeler
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- Dec 30, 2007
- Messages
- 1,106
Received my SO today, Batch 2. Probably won't have time to turn it on for another week or two. Planned uses:
1. Producing one-of finished pieces
2. When repeated operations are required for serial production, I plan on using the SO to produce precision templates to guide my larger routers.
1. Producing one-of finished pieces
2. When repeated operations are required for serial production, I plan on using the SO to produce precision templates to guide my larger routers.
Tom the Remodeler
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- Joined
- Dec 30, 2007
- Messages
- 1,106
neilc said:
Yessir, I'm pretty sure I have an account, I've just been up to my eyeballs in work and haven't had time to get involved in another community quite yet. Hopefully in the next month or so I'll have time to spend some more time over there [big grin]
[member=2242]tallgrass[/member] Will that be possible to have couple panels with tape on them that you would place around your cutting area and then reuse? Possibly program in an offset if the thickness of your material is different.tallgrass said:
i have made templates that that i reuse. almost like classical templates, but tape. this allows you to reuse tape. though once you have scanned your work area you are locked in to that unique constellation. i could be wrong. however it is my understanding it is the constellation that it uses. changing it during the cutting processes i would assume cause problems.
Interesting project - building a wooden boat - showed up on the Shaper forum today - still a work in process, but shows the potential of the tool on large scale projects -
https://medium.com/@cwsullivan/boat-projects-savior-the-shaper-origin-202ca5b4cb95
https://medium.com/@cwsullivan/boat-projects-savior-the-shaper-origin-202ca5b4cb95
Tallgrass, it is possible to add to the scanned tape areas to increase area or to make tape areas that are cut through. This can be done during the cutting process. I actually used this function this function today as I was making rounds for a customer's signs from 1/8" acrylic. I was making the rounds from cutoffs from another project. The pieces were not rectangular but by pivoting the machine I managed to keep the reference tapes in the camera's field of vision. I LOVE this machine. I did my cutting on top of cardboard, set my depth to 3.2mm (plastics are actually manufactured metric) The cut left most of the protective covering intact while going all the way thru the plastic. This is only the second time I have used the machine, first time I made 20mm holes and also explored the matrix function that allows precise placement of repetitive cutting. Made a series of 20mm holes on 96mm centers in X and Y axis...sound familiar?
Thenamesbt33
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- Jan 27, 2020
- Messages
- 1
Terrible idea. What happens when your wheels run over a place that has already been cut? I guess this is why we still haven’t seen the product... it’s been 3 years. I could list a bunch of things wrong with this thing, but having to design and make your cuts to make sure you don’t have your wheels running over anything you have already cut is no. 1
Thenamesbt33 said:
They are still working. I searched and found an update from last month.
I'm sure they know all the things that we could guess are wrong with it and they could add a few we haven't thought of.
It will be interesting to see how far they can take it.
He's talking about this:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2130625347/goliath-cnc-an-autonomous-robotic-machine-tool-for
not Shaper Origin
jonmannyb
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- Aug 17, 2014
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- 9
I always get mildly amused when I encounter that rich doctor or lawyer that gets into hobbies and dives in head first buying the most expensive gears while still a newbie. I do Brazilian jiu jitsu and I used to avidly play tennis. I got pretty decent at both. I humbly chuckle (not to discourage anyone) when I meet "that guy" with the $300 racket that can't do a forehand to save his life, or the guy with $400 worth of mixed martial arts gear on that couldn't defend his wife or girlfriend from anyone.
Well, I became "that guy" when I got the shaper origin 2 years ago. I bought it when it first came out at $1,500 and basically shelf'd it. Actually, not basically, I just did. I bought it and put it on the shelf with every intention to open it, but did not for 2 years; hiding it from my wife for that time (lol). So I basically didn't deserve to own such an innovative tool, like many people with expensive hobbies.
Well after 2 years, I've dusted it off and got started with it. Literally 2 weeks ago. My original intention was to use it to cut solid non-square furniture parts with a lot of angles and not have to perform template routing. template routing is unbelievable frustrating having to clean off the adhesive residue from carpet tape. It gets really embedded in there especially in deep grain woods like oak. And it's extremely expensive and very dangerous when you're forced to perform a climb cut and/or wrap around a really tight, sharp angle and then suddenly.... bang, you're beautiful 6/4, quarter sawn oak explodes at the tip of that tight angle while template routing.
So that's what I got the Shaper Origin for and I was truly excited to use it on these project where I needed to template rout.
Although I still haven't gotten to testing it out for my initial intent, I have been using and learning it and I can share my thoughts in relation to the Goliath CNC.
First the Shaper.
TAPE: Yes, it's expensive, but I've seen many creative ideas on YouTube where guys create reusable jigs on projects they repeat a lot to essentially not have to buy anymore tape for these projects at least. I've heard talk that the Shaper Origin originally was designed to orient itself by wood grain, but the tape was seen to be the better and more consistent solution. I see truth in that, but the tape has other weaknesses besides cost. I noticed if a lot of saw dust gets on your work surface, it loses orientation to that tape. You also lose those domino images the moment you damage that domino by cutting thru it and even scratching it a little. Shaper does allow you to rescan and add more tape, but be very careful or else you can lose all original calibration and the project is essentially lost and you run the risk of having to overlay your SVG file not perfectly aligned to the original SVG placement.
NOT SO BEEFY MOTOR: Just to clarify, Festool didn't buy Shaper, but it's mother company, Tooltechnics Systems (TTS). So Festool is only a sister company and not the owner of Shaper. That said, I wished the Shaper had a beefier Festool motor (OF 2200 - why not?!). Plus the collet can only fit a 1/4" shank. I don't know what Shaper's stance is on this, but I've encountered guys on line who've attached 1/2" straight cut bits with 1/4" shanks into the Shaper with no problem. I notice that when you're making cuts, there's a little struggle plowing thru material. I'm seeing that you really need to perform layers of cuts; especially pocket cuts. Plus when performing line cuts, you should sneak up on the line by offsetting initial cuts, because sometimes while you're trying to push the tool through, sometimes it jolts and the motorized alignment can't keep up and you end up with a messed up line cut. So I'm seeing you have to perform multiple cuts and layers especially on dense, thick material for perfect cuts.
My thoughts on Goliath:
From what I can see on the video, it works a lot like the Shaper. I do see that you need to orient yourself with the work piece, but without a gantry and track, I can't help but think that misalignments can be a factor just like with the Shaper Origin as I mentioned above.
I don't see the dust collection as a big issue in that, it seems like it's an Italian development, or at least European. And the Europeans (as Festool Owners all know) were first to really make a big deal about dust collection (I remember wood shop class in 80's watching our teacher suck in those dust particles like breathing in the scent of a freshly cut red rose - Ah, the good old days!). So I think they're going to resolve that issue when they go live with the product. Or at least soon after.
As I mentioned issues with dust on the tape above, I can't help but think that saw dust will be an issue with the traction of its wheels, even with the added dust collection.
Bottom line:
If you're looking to do solely 2D work, I think both machines may be comparable with pluses and minuses on each end once you work out the kinks, as I'm learning to do myself. On the one hand, I see that Shaper as a truly portable tool with tape as its only limitation, while I'm seeing the cable system to orient the Goliath may pose limitations on work space. The Shaper can work on tiny work pieces and unlimited in terms of big. I don't see the Goliath doing the same in terms of limitlessly big sizes. I've seen guys do really big inlay pieces on floors with the Shaper. I'm sure the Goliath can do the same, but I don't think it can do projects as big as the Shaper.
Additionally, it says its max cut is 1-5/16" while I know the Shaper can cut up to 1-3/4".
Finally, although both tools are noted as 2D CNC's, the shaper really can do levels of 3D work if you use jigs like the Work Station. You can create mortise and tenon and joints and so much more.
Bottom line, I think both tools have a lot of potential, but depending on your needs, it can be a coin toss which tool to get. But if you want to do 3D work, like what the Shaper can do with the Workstation, I think the Goliath may lose on that. As I'm learning more about CNC's, I'm seeing and hearing guys on YouTube say that they would get the Shaper origin to allow for large scale work (like sheet goods) and portable work and then get a much smaller conventional CNC machine to handle much smaller 3D work.
Hope this helps guys.
Any suggestions in lieu of template routing on thick 6/4 hardwoods and my Shaper Origin? I'd appreciate any input from guys with more knowledge than me.
Thanks!
Well, I became "that guy" when I got the shaper origin 2 years ago. I bought it when it first came out at $1,500 and basically shelf'd it. Actually, not basically, I just did. I bought it and put it on the shelf with every intention to open it, but did not for 2 years; hiding it from my wife for that time (lol). So I basically didn't deserve to own such an innovative tool, like many people with expensive hobbies.
Well after 2 years, I've dusted it off and got started with it. Literally 2 weeks ago. My original intention was to use it to cut solid non-square furniture parts with a lot of angles and not have to perform template routing. template routing is unbelievable frustrating having to clean off the adhesive residue from carpet tape. It gets really embedded in there especially in deep grain woods like oak. And it's extremely expensive and very dangerous when you're forced to perform a climb cut and/or wrap around a really tight, sharp angle and then suddenly.... bang, you're beautiful 6/4, quarter sawn oak explodes at the tip of that tight angle while template routing.
So that's what I got the Shaper Origin for and I was truly excited to use it on these project where I needed to template rout.
Although I still haven't gotten to testing it out for my initial intent, I have been using and learning it and I can share my thoughts in relation to the Goliath CNC.
First the Shaper.
TAPE: Yes, it's expensive, but I've seen many creative ideas on YouTube where guys create reusable jigs on projects they repeat a lot to essentially not have to buy anymore tape for these projects at least. I've heard talk that the Shaper Origin originally was designed to orient itself by wood grain, but the tape was seen to be the better and more consistent solution. I see truth in that, but the tape has other weaknesses besides cost. I noticed if a lot of saw dust gets on your work surface, it loses orientation to that tape. You also lose those domino images the moment you damage that domino by cutting thru it and even scratching it a little. Shaper does allow you to rescan and add more tape, but be very careful or else you can lose all original calibration and the project is essentially lost and you run the risk of having to overlay your SVG file not perfectly aligned to the original SVG placement.
NOT SO BEEFY MOTOR: Just to clarify, Festool didn't buy Shaper, but it's mother company, Tooltechnics Systems (TTS). So Festool is only a sister company and not the owner of Shaper. That said, I wished the Shaper had a beefier Festool motor (OF 2200 - why not?!). Plus the collet can only fit a 1/4" shank. I don't know what Shaper's stance is on this, but I've encountered guys on line who've attached 1/2" straight cut bits with 1/4" shanks into the Shaper with no problem. I notice that when you're making cuts, there's a little struggle plowing thru material. I'm seeing that you really need to perform layers of cuts; especially pocket cuts. Plus when performing line cuts, you should sneak up on the line by offsetting initial cuts, because sometimes while you're trying to push the tool through, sometimes it jolts and the motorized alignment can't keep up and you end up with a messed up line cut. So I'm seeing you have to perform multiple cuts and layers especially on dense, thick material for perfect cuts.
My thoughts on Goliath:
From what I can see on the video, it works a lot like the Shaper. I do see that you need to orient yourself with the work piece, but without a gantry and track, I can't help but think that misalignments can be a factor just like with the Shaper Origin as I mentioned above.
I don't see the dust collection as a big issue in that, it seems like it's an Italian development, or at least European. And the Europeans (as Festool Owners all know) were first to really make a big deal about dust collection (I remember wood shop class in 80's watching our teacher suck in those dust particles like breathing in the scent of a freshly cut red rose - Ah, the good old days!). So I think they're going to resolve that issue when they go live with the product. Or at least soon after.
As I mentioned issues with dust on the tape above, I can't help but think that saw dust will be an issue with the traction of its wheels, even with the added dust collection.
Bottom line:
If you're looking to do solely 2D work, I think both machines may be comparable with pluses and minuses on each end once you work out the kinks, as I'm learning to do myself. On the one hand, I see that Shaper as a truly portable tool with tape as its only limitation, while I'm seeing the cable system to orient the Goliath may pose limitations on work space. The Shaper can work on tiny work pieces and unlimited in terms of big. I don't see the Goliath doing the same in terms of limitlessly big sizes. I've seen guys do really big inlay pieces on floors with the Shaper. I'm sure the Goliath can do the same, but I don't think it can do projects as big as the Shaper.
Additionally, it says its max cut is 1-5/16" while I know the Shaper can cut up to 1-3/4".
Finally, although both tools are noted as 2D CNC's, the shaper really can do levels of 3D work if you use jigs like the Work Station. You can create mortise and tenon and joints and so much more.
Bottom line, I think both tools have a lot of potential, but depending on your needs, it can be a coin toss which tool to get. But if you want to do 3D work, like what the Shaper can do with the Workstation, I think the Goliath may lose on that. As I'm learning more about CNC's, I'm seeing and hearing guys on YouTube say that they would get the Shaper origin to allow for large scale work (like sheet goods) and portable work and then get a much smaller conventional CNC machine to handle much smaller 3D work.
Hope this helps guys.
Any suggestions in lieu of template routing on thick 6/4 hardwoods and my Shaper Origin? I'd appreciate any input from guys with more knowledge than me.
Thanks!
What am I missing here?
With all its limitations, you can order a Shaper Origin today and have it delivered soon and it will likely work to the extent it can.
Despite $1,072,544 in funding by 716 people (average of about $1500 per person), a funding drive in 2017 and a schedule that shows shipment in the fall of 2018, it appears that people are still waiting for their Goliath units. Read the comments on the Kickstarter page, including recent ones. And the founders are not giving as much as a hint as to when units will actually ship.
So why would a vaporware product be considered a slayer of an established product?
With all its limitations, you can order a Shaper Origin today and have it delivered soon and it will likely work to the extent it can.
Despite $1,072,544 in funding by 716 people (average of about $1500 per person), a funding drive in 2017 and a schedule that shows shipment in the fall of 2018, it appears that people are still waiting for their Goliath units. Read the comments on the Kickstarter page, including recent ones. And the founders are not giving as much as a hint as to when units will actually ship.
So why would a vaporware product be considered a slayer of an established product?