Have Chinese tool manufacturers already overtaken their western competitors?

[six-point socket II]

Please keep this civil and pleasant for everyone!

I bought a Chinese self-leveling rotary laser level with 12 lines/ 3 360° boxes. It is battery powered with the manufacturers own, proprietary, battery pack & a charger is build into the tool. Typical mains to usb power adapter included. An additional variable mount was included that is equipped with magnets, a 5/16" threaded bushing for larger/ professional tripods (the laser unit itself "only" has a 1/4" threaded bushing) another 1/4" threaded bushing so that mount can also be used with smaller tripods - and other means of attaching the mount to the worksite. It's a green laser, allegedly the diode is made by Osram. Whatever that means - or not. A carrying case was also included, as well as a "target plate".

While looking at this, a 20 EUR off coupon appeared which then resulted in 129,99 EUR total for the kit as described.

Now I probably don't need to say it, but typically this type of tool/kit starts at roughly 350,- EUR and that won't even get you a Bosch Professional and wouldn't get you even close to owning a Leica brand laser level of this type.

I felt playful and bought the Chinese laser.

Typical for this type of purchase, the shipping & handling was a bit sketchy. I got a tracking# days before the package was in the hands of the actual carrier - but it was delivered roughly within the estimated timeframe.

When I set it up I was pretty impressed with what those 129,99 got me. Well made, not emitting the typical nauseating smell that a lot of brands struggle with when selling Chinese made products and overall I'd rate this a 4 star product easily.

Obviously I checked it for accuracy against other tools at my disposal and it's spot on.

So what I'm asking is probably this, when they can make this for that kind of money. (And I always knew that when you do not push them for the absolute lowest price and ask for quality, they can deliver that with certain quality management/ quality insurance in place.) What stops them from literally flooding the market with price sensitive tools that are on par with those of western professional tool manufacturers quality wise? What's new to me here/ in this case, is that it is not a (western) branded product, it's their own brand & product.

So let's assume our praised leaders avoid WW3 in the coming years, which I would be thankful for - will we see Chinese tool manufacturers actively competing with their own brands in the western world & against western tool manufacturers, be it those that already manufacture in China today or those that only source parts there and still build the tools in the western world today?

Curious what everybody thinks about this!

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[woodbutcherbower]

My great problem with this?

So my Hilti drill goes faulty midway through a job. I call them - and within 2 hours, a courier shows up to collect the tool. Depending on where he is, the rep then shows up with a loan machine to keep my job moving. By the following morning, my tool is sitting on a bench in their national service repair centre in Glasgow being fixed. There’s a warehouse there which carries every part for every Hilti tool manufactured in the last 10 years. By 9am the next morning, the tool’s fixed and back in my hands. The logistics of this are staggering. They’ve even cleaned it for me. For someone who depends on these tools to feed his family and keep a roof over his head - that’s gold right there. Yeah, the tools are expensive to buy - but the above is part of the reason why.

Now show me one Chinese manufacturer who has a single repair part available anywhere in Europe, and you’ll maybe have my attention. My other problem with this is the very fact that they’re cheap. When they break - folks will just toss them in the trash and buy another. But somewhere in the third world is a vast pile of unfixable, disposable power tools adding to our global environmental disaster - a pile which probably grows by a containerload every week.

I totally get the point you’re making - but at present, virtually the entire Chinese manufacturing sector is geared up to people who know the price of everything - but the value of nothing. Until that changes, the status quo will remain.

 

[Packard]

In the 1960s, some very attractive and very cheap tools were coming in from India.  Of course the quality was terrible and that source of tools quickly dried up.

The Chinese were smarter.  They hired western consultants to oversee production and their quality became quite good.

Those same manufacturers, when they see a product that looks simple and they don’t hire the consultants, are perfectly capable of turning out junk.

The company I used to work for produced hundreds of thousands of welded D-rings for the tarpaulin industry.

A Chinese vendor approached us and we tried one 25,000 piece order.

These D-ring had to hold 250 pounds before failure.  The minimum we allowed in our production was 400 pounds and we frequently went to 600 pound or more.

We received the sample order and they looked perfect, with full penetration welds and a nice zinc plating.

But all of them failed before reaching 250 pounds.  Some failed at such low poundage that our tensile meter did not register.

The job called for C1010 or lower steel.  We sent the samples to a testing lab to determine what grade of steel they used.

It was “no grade”.  Apparently, they just melted any steel they could find and made it into wire.  The steel did not resemble the chemistry of any known grade of steel.

We originally thought they might have used a high carbon steel (notoriously difficult to weld, and requires an anneal after welding).  But that was not the case.  The steel had a high content of silicone, making all welds suspect.

It was such a simple job that they skipped the western consultants.

My takeaway is, if it is a challenging piece to produce and they are forced to hire outside consultants, then it is likely that the quality will be very good.

But contrary to “logic”, the really simple jobs are likely to be crap.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

[member=74278]Packard[/member] I have a similar story. I run a 1957 Morris Minor as a weekend/summer hobby car. I had a new clutch fitted last year - a Borg & Beck which is a reputable manufacturer. The thrust bearing failed after two miles - it literally shattered into pieces. The poor guys at the garage had to take out the engine + gearbox again and replace it. This second one lasted ten miles. So out came the engine + gearbox yet again, and the whole clutch was replaced a second time - but this time using a bearing they’d had machined locally. A phone call to Borg & Beck’s UK distributor revealed that the company had bought the bearings from a Chinese supplier and that this was a ‘known issue’.

Everyone you talk to has a similar story. I don’t care where something is made, and this certainly isn’t about any blinkered anti-Chinese attitude. But the sad fact is that the good guys over there producing high-quality products will inevitably get tarred with the same brush. I have no idea how they’re ever going to get past that.

 

[4nthony]

I run a 1957 Morris Minor as a weekend/summer hobby car.

A few years ago, a neighbor I didn't know used to park a Morris Minor Traveller in his driveway. I don't know what year it was but I always thought it was a cool car for cruising around the beach in Southern California. When I spotted this car back in 2018, it was the first I'd heard of Morris. I hadn't seen or heard mention of them since until I read your post.

 

[luvmytoolz]

It's very different for us here in OZ, we get screwed every way on the availability as well as pricing on items, especially tools. So Chinese stuff is huge here as it's so darn cheap. You used to be able to count on 95-99% of it being junk, but over the years Chinese quality has really skyrocketed. It's almost the new Taiwan.

I bought a CNC machine that cost me $2500AUD to buy + another $2500AUD in local customs, fees, port costs, transport, etc. The exact same machine to buy from any local supplier at that time was between $25k-$30k. It is sensational in quality and over 10 years later is still going as good as new.

Similarly I needed a laser level years back, but the Topcon's were insanely expensive for a hobbyist, so I got a Chinese one for roughly 1/8th or so of the cost. I checked mine against my builder neighbours Topcon and the results were identical over the 18m I was using it for, the only exception being mine was red and his being green had a further range than mine. No matter to me. Again, close to 10 years later it's still working fantastic and the batteries very surprisingly still hold pretty much full charge.

Same for router bits, cutters, etc. My knee mill performance wise is identical to a King Rich 2000, but at less than 1/5th the cost isn't as good quality, has it impacted in anyway whatsoever, nope! Same for my large centre lather.

Yes I've bought stuff that turned out to be junk in the past, but I've also had that with major brand items. Knowing what to look for can make a huge difference in a happy outcome, and in OZ we are very driven to happy outcomes by performing due diligence.

For most people in OZ, if we held out only for the quality, branded stuff, we'd own bugger all. Festool being the major exception!

 

[Euclid]

When I spotted this car back in 2018, it was the first I'd heard of Morris. I hadn't seen or heard mention of them since until I read your post.

Staying off-thread for a moment:

The Morris car brand - founded by William Morris (a.k.a. Viscount Nuffield), has its origins pre- WW1, and became one of the staple brands of the mass-market sector of the UK’s motor industry until it’s demise along with its then (mostly woeful) owner, the British Leyland conglomerate, in the 1980s.

With regards to things possibly more familiar in the US, Morris was one of the (two?) brands applied to the legendary Mini Cooper. And an early sideline of Morris, in the 20s, launched from another Morris-related business, Morris Garages, concentrated more on tuned, small Morris saloons (sedans) and sports cars. ‘Morris Garages’ equals ‘MG’.

(Apologies for the diversion…)

 

[wpz]

While looking at this, a 20 EUR off coupon appeared which then resulted in 129,99 EUR total for the kit as described.

Now I probably don't need to say it, but typically this type of tool/kit starts at roughly 350,- EUR and that won't even get you a Bosch Professional and wouldn't get you even close to owning a Leica brand laser level of this type.

I felt playful and bought the Chinese laser.

Typical for this type of purchase, the shipping & handling was a bit sketchy. I got a tracking# days before the package was in the hands of the actual carrier - but it was delivered roughly within the estimated timeframe.

When I set it up I was pretty impressed with what those 129,99 got me.

Hi [member=61712]six-point socket II[/member],

Did you have to pay customs surcharges and import duty taxes as well as German VAT (MwSt.) on it, or are those included in the 129,99€?
If you did, the price would be much closer to that 400€ of the Bosch pro I suspect.
If you did not, aren't you technically guilty of smuggling and tax fraud?

The thing is that in the EU we pay a lot of taxes and surcharges on products, if that is a good thing or not is a political discussion that we certainly should not have here, but the reality at the moment is that we do have to pay them.
My point is that if you were to buy a litre of petrol on a Kuwaiti webshop and did not declare it to customs when it arrives in the mail, it would be 78% cheaper than buying the exact same petrol here, because that is the amount of taxes and surcharges we pay on petrol at the moment.

Another thing to keep in mind is that products that are imported to the EU need to comply to EU standards of safety, etc... (CE certification) and sometimes also local standards eg. TÜV in Germany or NEN in the Netherlands. Those certifications also cost a lot of money and all add to the price of a product.

Let's take the laser level as an example:
I'm sure there is a EU standard for the maximum power a laser of a certain light frequency can have in a laser level so it does not damage your eyes if you were to accidentally look into one of the beams (it has something to do with blinking reflex, do not keep staring into the beam or you can still damage your retina).
What if the Chinese manufacturer is not aware of that danger and puts in a way more powerful laser in order to get longer range than the Bosch. Will you still be happy with your 130€ level after you've become permanently blind in one eye?  [scared]

Sorry if I'm a bit direct, this is in no way meant as a personal attack or anything, just some food for thought and an attempt to explain where some of the price differences come from.

Grüsse,
wpz

 

[six-point socket II]

[member=66126]wpz[/member]

This wasn't an import per the seller. The price included VAT and I have a proper invoice.

But even if it didn't, you'd get nowhere even close to 400,- if it was added.

Let's do the math:

129,99 including shipping. Add 19% VAT -> 154,69. I'm way too lazy to look up current tariffs, but from extensive experience with international imports most likely that would be a couple of bucks. So lets make it 160,- or worst 170,- total. Still miles away of 400,-.

For the rest, I'm totally aware of that - worked in technical documentation.

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[six-point socket II]

[member=75780]woodbutcherbower[/member]

Do you have a leasing contract/ fleet management with Hilti or do they offer this kind of service to all types of customers?

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[AlexThePalex]

Chinese products by far outnumber Western products in quantity, but lack in quality.

Chinese products are only made to LOOK like the real thing we're used to here, but use them, and they'll crumble in your hands. A Chinese spanner may look like a Gedore, but use it and it's broken after you have to put force on a nut that's really tight. And just the other day I needed to cut a brake cable for a bicycle and the pliers supplied to me from the cheap 40 euro set with 40 tools in it, couldn't even do it. It was not only too dull to cut this simple multi-stranded cable, it got dinged by it. I had to get my 35 euro Knipex out to cut the cable.

A Chinese tool might look good if you're a hobbyist who's careful of his tools and only has to whip it out once every two months. But place it in the hands of a professional crew that uses and abuses it 8 hours a day, and it not only slows you down by 75% but you can buy a new one after 3 days.

Nevertheless, that WILL change, they will get better over time, once the Chinese will realise there's also great value in quality. Shortsightedness of western manufacturers have transferred almost all production capacity over to China, which gives them tremendous power and leaves the west limp in a race we're definitely losing.

So let's assume our praised leaders avoid WW3 in the coming years, which I would be thankful for

No, they won't, they will cause it. They are weak old men and incapable of handling a crisis of the magnitude the world's about to face.

Wars break out when there's a shift in the balance of power. And boy, are we gonna be witness to the biggest shift in the history of mankind.

 

[six-point socket II]

Chinese products by far outnumber Western products in quantity, but lack in quality.

Chinese products are only made to LOOK like the real thing we're used to here, but use them, and they'll crumble in your hands. A Chinese spanner may look like a Gedore, but use it and it's broken after you have to put force on a nut that's really tight. And just the other day I needed to cut a brake cable for a bicycle and the pliers supplied to me from the cheap 40 euro set with 40 tools in it, couldn't even do it. It was not only too dull to cut this simple multi-stranded cable, it got dinged by it. I had to get my 35 euro Knipex out to cut the cable.

A Chinese tool might look good if you're a hobbyist who's careful of his tools and only has to whip it out once every two months. But place it in the hands of a professional crew that uses and abuses it 8 hours a day, and it not only slows you down by 75% but you can buy a new one after 3 days.

Nevertheless, that WILL change, they will get better over time, once the Chinese will realise there's also great value in quality. Shortsightedness of western manufacturers have transferred almost all production capacity over to China, which gives them tremendous power and leaves the west limp in a race we're definitely losing.

(...)

I'd agree that they are probably not 100% there yet, and obviously not for every product. But they are coming for us, that's for sure.

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[woodbutcherbower]

[member=75780]woodbutcherbower[/member]

Do you have a leasing contract/ fleet management with Hilti or do they offer this kind of service to all types of customers?

Kind regards,
Oliver

Hi Oliver - My 6 x Hilti machines are all on their fleet management scheme which includes the lease of the tool, plus unlimited repairs and loans (not that they're needed very often, the stuff's virtually indestructible). Customers who purchase tools outright get a 2-year warranty, but then pay for repairs and the parts needed. The speed and quality of service is identical. Every repair then carries a new 6-month no-cost warranty. But Hilti also cap repair costs over the lifetime of the tool, meaning that once repair costs have reached a certain percentage of the cost of a new equivalent, there'll be nothing more to pay no matter how many times repairs are needed in the future. The percentage varies, but is usually around 50% depending upon the tool and what kind of abuse it's likely to receive. This cap applies until a tool is 10 years old. It's called 'having confidence in your product'.

Going back to my first post about piles of unrecycled junk disposable tools, I also admire and respect their corporate 'circularity' policy regarding tool/parts reuse/recycling and refurbished tool donation to educational and humanitarian causes. All is explained here;
https://www.hilti.group/content/hilti/CP/XX/en/services/tool-services/lifetime-services.html
=3s

Kevin

 

[six-point socket II]

Kevin,

Thanks! I assumed you were on fleet management with them from the description. That's of course a totally different approach - and there is no substitute to that. And I'll take it from your comment that you feel you're getting a good return on your payments for that service/ the tools. That is great & exactly how it should be!

Will watch that video on Hilti's sustainability approach later. Thank you for that, also!

BTW: I love my pre-2004/2005 TE-2M, taking really good care of it since there is no substitute for that machine. Not from Hilti, and not from any other professional brand.

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[semenza]

Please be careful about the paths this discussion takes.

Seth

 

[six-point socket II]

[thumbs up]

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[Packard]

American manufacturers know how to get quality from Chinese manufacturers.  For example large iron castings are rarely produced in the USA anymore.  Delta and others have had jointers made in China.  They are made to their specifications and either their employees are there to sign off on production or a hired agent is.  The jointers, several different brands seem to differ by color only, have been entirely satisfactory.

Shwinn Bicycles was enticed to produce bikes in China.  Huge incentives were offered. They had previously moved from Chicago to Taiwan.  When they left Taiwan, that company became Giant Bicycles.

The Chinese expected that Schwinn would hire 500 or more to operate the company.  Instead, Schwinn chose automation.  Though the cost to assemble a bicycle wheel (“lacing the spokes”) was about the same whether automated or using cheap Chinese labor, they found that the automation yielded better quality.  The same held true for welding.  Robots could produce consistently high quality welds—far better than the human counterpart.

So, if the item lends itself to automation or it is sophisticated enough to require western oversight of production, it is likely that the quality will be good.

On the other hand, anyone with a CNC milling machine can turn out good looking milled aluminum parts that look like those produced by TSO or Woodpeckers.  In many cases, simple reverse engineering is fine.

There are other areas where the Chinese have an advantage.  It is estimated that 40% to 60% of the total cost of metal finishing in the USA is the cost to comply with environmental laws.  The Chinese ignore that issue entirely.  So any parts that are anodized or zinc plated or powder coated are going to cost much less than in the USA.

But that pretty red anodized aluminum gadget from China may not have the same depth of anodizing as the American version. The surface will be softer and will scratch more easily. 

There are good deals to be had, but I find going through an American manufacturer that imports is more likely to offer a good result than ordering directly from a Chinese manufacturer.

 

[Mini Me]

As noted in an earlier post Australians rely on direct buying from Chinese manufacturers and I have been buying and re-selling for years and had zero manufacturing QC problems in that time and I do mean zero, absolutely none. The Chinese are disruptors, they are removing the many steps that increase the end price by selling direct to the end user. The western style of supply adds a mark up every time it is sold at a wholesale level and that is one of the reasons they can supply at a lower cost. Any importer can duplicate what Hilti has done, they just choose not too. 

 

[AstroKeith]

My 'other' interest is astronomy and in particular the instrumentation.

Over the last decade or two, consumer astronomical equipment has increasingly come from China. First it was western brands outsourcing the manufacture. Then came waves of Chinese brands (clones to be polite), then more recently the western brands have just bought the Chinese designed stuff and put labels on.

The quality generally has declined over this period. One western manufacturer went bankrupt, got bought out, and is now bringing manufacture back.

One or two brands are just about OK, but they seem to have got the trick of Taiwan optics in Chinese housings. But the electronics are unreliable.

The final result. 90% of what is available, while competitive on price, is barely fit for purpose. OK for hobbyists but soon shows it bad colours when pushed. At 90% choice has effectively been removed. The price of non-Chinese products has soared and waiting lists grown.

As has been pointed out, the common business model is to sell stuff in the expectation that no support will be offered. The product performance is often not well specified - when it is it often fails to meet it. I spent some time helping a UK retailer check telescopes before he shipped them to customers. 50% were faulty.

The astronomy hobby community has now split into at least two. Many buy Chinese and get by. An increasing number are not, which interestingly is slowly driving the market to bring back US or EU manufacture.

Coming back to woodworking tools. A friend bought a well known brand of hand plane. Now made in China. He asked my to sharpen it as it seemed blunt. In fact it was impossible to sharpen. The blade steel was so soft it would not take an edge. I tried to harden it (900C then quenching) it got a little better, but dulled very quickly. Poor steel.

So the average DIY person, buying a hand plane today has no choice. Its a cheap product, but doesnt work.

 

[luvmytoolz]

So the average DIY person, buying a hand plane today has no choice. Its a cheap product, but doesnt work.

And yet the Luban planes among other Chinese designed and made tools are exceptionally good quality.