smorgasbord
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Video showing inside a Chinese factory of CNC machines.
Have Chinese tool manufacturers already overtaken their western competitors?
- Thread starter six-point socket II
- Start date
My twopence... my exception is Li-Ion batteries that can explode and burn when they fail.
Don't get me wrong, I run an electric van as my main vehicle (82kwh battery), have a solar battery back up for the workshop (14kwh), and have soooo many Li-Ion tool batteries - but all of it has a brand who has put their name on it - Li-ion battery failures in the last 15+ years?... one, and it was replaced for free. (if you're interested, it was on an LED projector and ran down to zero, wouldn't recharge, the rep replaced it no questions.)
It's possible that the batteries on cheap no-name Ali-express/Ali-baba/etc similar tool came out of the same factory as some of my batteries mentioned above, but am I prepared to risk my work van full of tools/workshop full of tools/clients property etc., with a no-name untraceable Li-Ion battery that could fail?.. no, no I won't.
Don't get me wrong, I run an electric van as my main vehicle (82kwh battery), have a solar battery back up for the workshop (14kwh), and have soooo many Li-Ion tool batteries - but all of it has a brand who has put their name on it - Li-ion battery failures in the last 15+ years?... one, and it was replaced for free. (if you're interested, it was on an LED projector and ran down to zero, wouldn't recharge, the rep replaced it no questions.)
It's possible that the batteries on cheap no-name Ali-express/Ali-baba/etc similar tool came out of the same factory as some of my batteries mentioned above, but am I prepared to risk my work van full of tools/workshop full of tools/clients property etc., with a no-name untraceable Li-Ion battery that could fail?.. no, no I won't.
[member=79486]Fourmi[/member] I'm with you on the batteries. Recently, I was thinking about buying additional DeWalt 20v batteries but thought they were a bit pricey. So, I started looking on Amazon and found some that were well reviewed. But I'm very slow to buy anything on Amazon and it just sat in the cart.
Then, the holiday deals started coming out and my local Home Depot had some deals on batteries and I got those. No need to be concerned about reliability or quality. So much easier.
Then, the holiday deals started coming out and my local Home Depot had some deals on batteries and I got those. No need to be concerned about reliability or quality. So much easier.
On large iron castings the Chinese have a lock. The cost of environmental compliance in the west and virtually none in China.
On processes the have expensive waste disposal costs in the west and none in China, they have a huge advantage.
I read that 40% of the cost of plating is environmental compliance. And the Chinese have none.
In the USA, the cost of OSHA compliance (and the resulting reduction in productivity) and no safety compliance at all in China.
On processes the have expensive waste disposal costs in the west and none in China, they have a huge advantage.
I read that 40% of the cost of plating is environmental compliance. And the Chinese have none.
In the USA, the cost of OSHA compliance (and the resulting reduction in productivity) and no safety compliance at all in China.
mino
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The steam from the "Western Supremacy" crowd is heating up this thread a bit too much folks.
Chinese manufacturing of 2024 is not Chinese manufacturing of the 1980s. In the same way US manufacturing of 2000s was not the US manufacturing of the 1930s. Some of you are old enough to remember how regulations were when US was the prime manufacturing power in the world. It was much closer to today China than today US.
As for OHSA and Co. Chinese have their own regulations and approaches and, in general, still take a much less regulated "common sense" approach where employees are not hand-holded by regulations to not do something stupid, like putting they hands into a running CNC booth ... a great video BTW.
Frankly, I am not sure where the optimum stands. As it is, the US/West industrial business environment is so over-regulated the Soviet central planners were amateurs in comparison.
At the same, the continental China still has some ways to go ref. environmental regulations. Though I do not see them going as overboard as we do in the EU in some areas. We are in a situation where it is effectively impossible to manufacture some essential items because of regulations. That is not to be celebrated. That is an industrial suicide and nothing more. The stuff will still be made at places where people did not go insane. Yet. And likely so with less environment protections than were in place before plants were closed in US/UK/FR/etc.
Chinese manufacturing of 2024 is not Chinese manufacturing of the 1980s. In the same way US manufacturing of 2000s was not the US manufacturing of the 1930s. Some of you are old enough to remember how regulations were when US was the prime manufacturing power in the world. It was much closer to today China than today US.
As for OHSA and Co. Chinese have their own regulations and approaches and, in general, still take a much less regulated "common sense" approach where employees are not hand-holded by regulations to not do something stupid, like putting they hands into a running CNC booth ... a great video BTW.
Frankly, I am not sure where the optimum stands. As it is, the US/West industrial business environment is so over-regulated the Soviet central planners were amateurs in comparison.
At the same, the continental China still has some ways to go ref. environmental regulations. Though I do not see them going as overboard as we do in the EU in some areas. We are in a situation where it is effectively impossible to manufacture some essential items because of regulations. That is not to be celebrated. That is an industrial suicide and nothing more. The stuff will still be made at places where people did not go insane. Yet. And likely so with less environment protections than were in place before plants were closed in US/UK/FR/etc.
mino
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Yep. And the issue is not even the environmental limits per se in many cases. It is the over-regulated nature of it all. Even if you can meet the requirements, the process to get an industrial plant approved is like 10 years for getting an approval. At best 5 years, if the gov is on your side and actively helping.onocoffee said:
Result being, today, unless a factory gets special gov treatment as a "strategic investment", it is economically impossible to build it. So everyone moves investment to most suitable non-EU place by default.
Funny story: when the Ukraine war started, it was "suddenly" discovered that the whole of EU has two (2) military grade explosives producers for artillery systems. One was in the Czech republic. When it was discussed how it is possible there are no other such plants in the EU anymore, the management explained that if someone did try to build such a plant today, it would be nigh impossible to get it approved and that they operate on grandfathered permits and thanks to being gov-owned as a strategic asset. Civilian stuff situation is way worse.
What is happening here is the Brussels central bureaucracy is systematically (ab)using various direct and indirect means to actively subvert local regulations to "protect the environment". They obfuscate by mandating various "transparency" NIMBY-enabling legal procedures, politically-pushing pollution limits definitions that are often ridiculous, etc. Like demanding a plant releases air cleaner than the intake air. Yes, that was a real topic lately over here, thankfully an "exception" was granted for that "polluting" plant.
And do not get me started on "safety" regulations. About 15 yrs ago it became impossible to get Potassium permanganate from a local pharmacy. A great and super-safe agent for field conditions skin/mouth sterilisation. Some morons in Brussels figured you can make explosives from it .. so instead of regulating concentrates, they flat-banned the substance, including the 10% solutions of a few millilitres up to then sold by pharmacies. Forcing people to use way more toxic organic stuff that is over-the-counter available.
Gimme communist era planners*) any day over this stuff!
*) managing the regulations, not runnin the economy ..
mino said:
You make some great points in this and other posts.
China does not have the same environmental constraints as the west, but they are an industrial powerhouse that produces up to 75% of what we 'consume' in the west. So we have to give them some slack instead of the constant 'look at how bad Chinas emissions are!'... etc.
Out of the masses comes strong reliable businesses - like CATL in battery industry, BYD in the vehicle industry - and their next step is 'local' production (local to the west) where they will be obliged to work under the same constraints.
Asides from the battery issues I already mentioned, I suppose the other is impossibility to really know what you are buying. We have all purchased something from 'Ali-something-or-other' only to have received half the order - can you send me your unboxing video? (no I don't do this as I am used to trusting my suppliers), or something that is such poor quality that in does not resemble the item on the website - no chance of a refund without sending it back at our Western non-subsidised postal rates.
At some point, there will be better channels (Amazon is a good start) for the quality tool manufacturers to stand out. I for one can't wait.
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