sancho57
Member
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2011
- Messages
- 7,089
How Do I Avoid The Holes?
- Thread starter darita
- Start date
Packard
Member
Cheese said:
That actually makes me feel a little better. I drilled my own using pegboard sheet for spacing and a Vix bit for the pilot holes. I then used a 3/4” bushing mounted in a 6” x 6” sheet of ply to assure perpendicularity.
I’ve made three such tops. On each one there is one hole that is out of alignment. I encircled the misbehaving hole with a magic marker so I know not to use it for squareness.
But mostly I use the holes for clamping down jigs that I use for squaring things up.
I have never figured out how I ended up with one hole out of alignment. I screwed the peg board to the MDF to assure that it would not shift positions.
In my mind, the PARF setup would be more likely to have an outlier as there are multiple setups. I would assume that a CNC would get 100% results. But I guess not. (I am assuming that the factory tops are machined on a CNC, though they could do the same with a gang drilling machine.
If it is the case that the holes are not necessarily aligned perfectly, why are there so many companies producing aftermarket accessories using the dog holes to align rails and fences for 90* cuts? There are also many reputable folks using those items and dog holes with seemingly good results. I'm not arguing a point, I'm just very curious.
It is why table saws tear out on the bottom and radial arm saws tear out on the top.
In common (albeit improper usage), radial arm saws cut down and the tear out is on the bottom.
I do not understand the holes do not allow support comments. The support for a track saw is the material above, not below.
In common (albeit improper usage), radial arm saws cut down and the tear out is on the bottom.
I do not understand the holes do not allow support comments. The support for a track saw is the material above, not below.
Crazyraceguy
Member
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2015
- Messages
- 5,039
darita said:
They didn't. It was never their intention for it to be used that way. Their plan was the fence for the material and the hinge for the track.
Packard
Member
krudawg said:
“Replaceable” is not quite the word I would use. I think “consumable” is more accurate. Changing to “consumable” changes your mindset.
“Replaceable” is the bumper on your car after an accident. “Consumable” are the brake pads on your car after they are worn out.
It change how you think of things.
Cheese
Member
darita said:
This has been a talking point on this forum for at least the last 8 years...probably longer. [tongue]
I got involved in a phone conversation with an Engineer at Woodpeckers and he informed me that for an upcoming project, they measured 6 Festool MFT tops, 2 of which were brand new, never used and the measurement results they got on their vision system were "surprising". He said "we were surprised at the measurement variation" between all of the tops, including the new ones. He wouldn't tell me how much variation there was in the measurements but I sure would like to know. [smile]
Maybe those "reputable folks" had their tops machined by an outside source that would guarantee the tolerances they needed...don't know.
six-point socket II
Member
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2016
- Messages
- 2,241
darita said:
Because they sell quicker than fresh buns on a Sunday morning. Additionally people have been making their own tops, even complete tables, mobile tables, (...) for years. You can get CNC machined tops from various sources, even CNC machined templates to make your own tops - in addition to other DIY top solutions. It's quite a market.
It's the same with all the Woodpeckers "counterfeits". Ever wondered why suddenly (actually for years now) "everyone" sells beefy Aluminum squares, jigs, (...) that are anodized in red? If Woodpeckers didn't exist, no one would be interested in "red Chinesium".
Kind regards,
Oliver
Packard
Member
The older CNC milling machine in the tool room of the company where I worked, easily held +/- 0.002”, which was more than accurate enough for our purposes and likely would produce an accurate bench top (except for the size limitations of a milling machine designed for metal work).
What kind of tolerances do the CNC milling machines for wood products hold?
A multi-spindle drilling machine would be faster than a CNC. The distance between holes and the alignment of the line of holes should be perfect.
Registration between rows of holes might be an issue.
Does anyone know the process that Festool uses for machining the MFT tops?
What kind of tolerances do the CNC milling machines for wood products hold?
A multi-spindle drilling machine would be faster than a CNC. The distance between holes and the alignment of the line of holes should be perfect.
Registration between rows of holes might be an issue.
Does anyone know the process that Festool uses for machining the MFT tops?
Packard said:A multi-spindle drilling machine would be faster than a CNC. The distance between holes and the alignment of the line of holes should be perfect.
I stopped by a friend's shop last week to check out his new (2nd) CNC machine. It has a second head that looks like a line-boring machine, but it has 5mm cutters loaded in it. It can be programmed to modify the spacing between cutters, or to eliminate some of the cutters from a program. Since all of the cutters move in unison, the smaller bits can be used to helix larger holes. So his machine can be used for adjustable shelf line boring, or if he wants to make replacement MFT tops, he can do so a lot faster than the regular spindle. I didn't know such a thing existed.
six-point socket II
Member
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2016
- Messages
- 2,241
ChuckS said:
Yes, absolutely. Here's a German YouTuber selling his personal line of tools. Wonder how he came up with the color & general style ...
Probably totally acceptable by law/ different enough to not be a violation of any patents/trademarks/copyright. But without Woodpeckers existing & pioneering, unsellable.https://shop.lets-bastel.de/Werkzeuge
Kind regards,
Oliver
Crazyraceguy
Member
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2015
- Messages
- 5,039
As far as needing support under the cut, it depends entirely on the material. "Cheap" melamine is notorious for being somewhat crumbly on the edges in the first place and since you are not (or shouldn't be anyway) cutting very deep into the MFT underneath it, the cut is not so much upward as it is across. This can, especially if your blade is not it's sharpest, cause some chipping on the bottom side around voids or holes in the MFT. It's not necessarily a huge thing, and if you don't cut melamine at all, even less.
The same can actually happen on the top surface with a table saw, if the blade is too low. Of course the higher it is, the worse it breaks out on the bottom too, plus the safety aspect needs to be addressed.
Better Melamine is not nearly as weak, veneered ply should be fine too, especially with the grain, HPL is pretty tough too, so it is mostly about the type of material.
I would imagine that most of the kits/jigs that have been created for making dog-hole tops have paid more attention to the squareness/accuracy of the holes because of user-input. As stated, it was never Festool's intention for the holes to be used that way, but it doesn't mean they can't be, if the accuracy is there.
You can cut a shockingly perfect kerf in the top, and keep repeating it hundreds of times, with no one ever knowing. That kerf will stay very nice and clean, "until" that first bevel cut. Then it's done. That's why I'm a believer in the replaceable strip method.
My main assembly table has a 4' x 8' grid of 325 holes and has never had a saw cut into it. I use it strictly for squaring assemblies and clamping. The cross-cut table has way fewer holes, just enough to function, with the entire end replaceable. (about 16")
The same can actually happen on the top surface with a table saw, if the blade is too low. Of course the higher it is, the worse it breaks out on the bottom too, plus the safety aspect needs to be addressed.
Better Melamine is not nearly as weak, veneered ply should be fine too, especially with the grain, HPL is pretty tough too, so it is mostly about the type of material.
I would imagine that most of the kits/jigs that have been created for making dog-hole tops have paid more attention to the squareness/accuracy of the holes because of user-input. As stated, it was never Festool's intention for the holes to be used that way, but it doesn't mean they can't be, if the accuracy is there.
You can cut a shockingly perfect kerf in the top, and keep repeating it hundreds of times, with no one ever knowing. That kerf will stay very nice and clean, "until" that first bevel cut. Then it's done. That's why I'm a believer in the replaceable strip method.
My main assembly table has a 4' x 8' grid of 325 holes and has never had a saw cut into it. I use it strictly for squaring assemblies and clamping. The cross-cut table has way fewer holes, just enough to function, with the entire end replaceable. (about 16")
