How would you make this joint with Dominos ??

[Cary Swoveland]

Maybe I am dim, but I don't see why you have to do anything out of the ordinary.

I agree.  You want to cut mortises that are parallel with the top of the stringer. 

Okay, now that we have established I am dim...
Why do you want the mortises parallel with the top of the stringer?
I am new to the Domino and floating tenons, but have put in plenty of dowels and always put them perpendicular to the face.  I would do that with the dominos also.  Of course, you couldn't put dowels in any other way; but they have never failed, so don't see why dominos would.

I suggested making them parallel with the top of the stringer so you'd have a face to register from, and therefore be able to make both mortises tight.  However, you could mark centers on both boards and cut both perpendicular to the faces.  Since you wouldn't have a surface to register from, you'd probably want to cut one for a loose side-to-side fit.  The latter method does have the advantage that you wouldn't have to shorten the domino.   I think both approaches would be fine.

Update: I must have had a vapor-lock of the brain.  Please forget my original suggestion.  Cutting them perpendicular to the faces is clearly the best way of doing it.

Cary

 

[bruegf]

Art,

My father is a (now retired) cabinet maker who learned his trade via an apprenticeship in Germany in the early 1950's before he came to this country.  His skill never ceases to amaze me.  I only wish I had bothered to learn more from him as I was growing up and having to help to him as his was a one man shop.  I'm slowing making up for that bit of bad judgement, but have a long, long way to go.

Fred

 

[Toller]

Update: I must have had a vapor-lock of the brain.  Please forget my original suggestion.  Cutting them perpendicular to the faces is clearly the best way of doing it.

Cary

I wish someone who feels it must be parallel to the stretcher would explain his reasoning, rather than quoting Nakashima.

 

[mat]

If you must have the domino parrallel to the top of the stretcher why not make some wedges of the appropriate angle that sit between the workpiece and the domino.

 

[art stratemeyer]

I wish someone who feels it must be parallel to the stretcher would explain his reasoning, rather than quoting Nakashima.

Mr. Toller, one of the delights I've found in woodworking for over 40 years is that, no matter the skill level, fellow woodworkers tend to be both a friendly and respectful group.  The ability to improve is based on this respectful give and take.  Something you might consider.

If you had taken the time to read ALL of my posts.  You will not see ANY mention of the fact that a tenon MUST be parallel to a top edge.  Quite the contrary, in scores of instances, ie japanese 4-way mortise joints must have either the tenon or the resulting mortise at and angle. If fact, if you had read my post thoroughly you would have seen that, when doing it by hand the mortise sides are angled.

Now ... that being said ... for any others interested ... this how I finally ended up doing the joint.

Note: that my goal is easy replicability without sacrificing strength.

While the method I described at the beginning of this post did in fact work fine. The angled gap between the mortise edge and the domino ( see pictures in the post above) resulted in the domino only relying on "face" glue for its strength.  While the test piece took a pretty big beating to fail, I still did not like the thought of the edges of the domino not being in contact with the mortise.

What I did was come up with a clamping jig to hold the shorter, angled stretchers firmly in place.  Then, using the angled face of this piece I centered and plunged in the mortise.  On the legs it was a simple matter of plunging against the long side.  Again all of this was done on a prototype ( plywood sure is cheaper and figured wood and ebony !!! ).  The net result was ... "I'll be durned ... it worked" ... and NOPE the mortise in the stretcher is NOT parallel to the top edge.  The hold down jig had to be designed because the stretcher is only 38mm wide and about 180mm long thus the fence comes into play with any clamps that might be used.  Note: all mortises were plunged with the "tight" setting

Now, happily watching my apprentice cut several hundred mortises !! ahhhhhh thank god for youth !!!

 

[Toller]

I wish someone who feels it must be parallel to the stretcher would explain his reasoning, rather than quoting Nakashima.

Mr. Toller, one of the delights I've found in woodworking for over 40 years is that, no matter the skill level, fellow woodworkers tend to be both a friendly and respectful group.  The ability to improve is based on this respectful give and take.  Something you might consider.

If you had taken the time to read ALL of my posts.  You will not see ANY mention of the fact that a tenon MUST be parallel to a top edge. 

The way you finally did it is the obvious way; the way those of us without 40 years of experience would have done it without considering alternatives.
Why did you want to do it the other way originally?  A number of people agreed with you and thought your method was reasonable.  Therefore I assume there is something there I am just not catching; but no one, including you, has responded to my question. 

 

[Tinker]

Does anyone know what video player software works with WoodWhisperer's posts?  My PC equipped with VISTA doesn't recognize it.  I have no problem with most of the links posted on FOG.

Dave R.

I have Mac.  It works fine.  that is not always the case, so maybe i should gloat for once  8) ;D :
Tinker

 

[Tinker]

Gentlemen, I have mentioned upon a few ocassions, that there often are two or more ways to do many things.  I did not learn the carpenter or woodworking trades thru any apprenticeship.  i did spend a few years learnbing the masonry trade.  One of my favorite "teachers" was an old Greman craftsman who had learned his trade thru an apprenticeship, etc, in his "Old Country"' Germany.  he would often give me a task and after i had been working on it for a little while, he would come over and see how i "vas doingk".  After watching a few minutes, he would say, "Vell, dat vay vas alriight, budt dis vay voulda vas bedder." 

I'm not making fun.  I loved working with that old man.  And, what the heck, i married a good German lady.

cool it guys.  I learned a few thingks here just reading the arguements.
Tinker

 

[Dave Rudy]

I have Mac.  It works fine.  that is not always the case

Always the case here.  Above all, the main thing that I love about the Mac is that it works!  Not so with the many PC's I used for about 10 years.  With the new Intel Mac I can run windows software on those occasions when I absolutely have to, and have virtually flawless operation the rest of the time.

;D ;D ;D ;D :-* :-*

 

[Dave Rudy]

Art,

Could you possibly post pics of your clamping jig -- I'd be interested to see exactly how you set this up.

Thanks

Dave

 

[Eli]

"Vell, dat vay vas alriight, budt dis vay voulda vas bedder." 

I wonder if we could get a catalog printed in old country Cherman.

"Vell, you kood go vis de Prilliant paypah, but de roobins vas bedder.

 

[Cary Swoveland]

Update: I must have had a vapor-lock of the brain.  Please forget my original suggestion.   Cutting them perpendicular to the faces is clearly the best way of doing it.
Cary

I wish someone who feels it must be parallel to the stretcher would explain his reasoning, rather than quoting Nakashima.

Toller, I don't understand.  I said I no longer believe it would be best to make the mortises parallel with the stretcher.  I agree with others--including you--who argue that the mortises should be cut "in the usual way", i.e., perpendicular to the faces, i.e., by placing the face of the Domino on the faces to be cut, and the fence against the edge.  That provides registration off the sides of the boards, and avoids the need to shorten dominos.

Incidentally, I trust you understand that when I said, "I agree", I meant that I agreed with your assertion that they should be cut "in the usual way", but at the time I thought you meant cutting them parallel with the stretcher.  I later understood what you meant.  I certainly did not mean that I agreed that you "are dim".
 
Who is/was Nakashima?

Cary 

 

[Toller]

Toller, I don't understand.  I said I no longer believe it would be best to make the mortises parallel with the stretcher. 

Who is/was Nakashima?

Cary 

I am sorry; I understood your post, but phrased mine poorly.  My reply wasn't really directed at you.

An earlier poster implied that I had no right to an opinion because he had 40 years of experience and quoted Nakashima to the effect that I would do better to listen than talk. 
I haven't any idea who Nakashima is either, (I suppose he is a revered woodworker, as the poster is proud of their study together 20 years ago) but do know that it translates as "center island" if I remember the Japanese I learned 40 years ago.

I was just pissed at his attitude (especially when he refused to explain his bizarre "solution") and I regret that it might have seemed to involve you.

 

[Warrior]

Toller,
I'm with you man. Whats with all the fuss? Just mark the mortise location, plunge, glue and clamp.

KISS

 

[Dan Clermont]

Toller,
I'm with you man. Whats with all the fuss? Just mark the mortise location, plunge, glue and clamp.

I would be suprised to find that the joint was weakened because the tenon was not parrallel to the stretcher.

I totally agree. I've been following this thread as well and doubt an unparallel Domino will make much of a difference

Dan Clermont

 

[Tezzer]

Toller,
I'm with you man. Whats with all the fuss? Just mark the mortise location, plunge, glue and clamp.

KISS

Im also with you. This has been a very strange post to a non existent problem

 

[Rocker]

I am going to go against the accepted wisdom here, and maintain that the advent of CAD has made building a prototype unnecessary. I use TurboCAD, and find that I can usually achieve an optimum design merely by playing with it on the computer screen until it looks right, and then just read off the dimensions of the parts from the finished drawing.

By the way, I too would cut the mortises after trimming the ends of the stretcher at an angle. The domino will not be parallel to the top of the stretcher; but so what?

Rocker