I Wish Festool Would Give A Little More Attention To Detail...

[onocoffee]

It may seem like I'm bitching a lot this week because of my RTS thread, but my local dealer called me today to let me know that my RTS Abrasive Systainer came in. Normally, they have a couple of them but this past couple weeks they've been blowing through them and so I ordered one. Whenever I buy these abrasive sets I typically will look through the stack and see which one is the nicest and choose that.

Now you might be saying: "Nicest? They're all brand new so they're all the same" - and normally I would agree. However, what I've learned is that when packing the Systainers, they put the abrasives in so that the abrasive side is up. I don't know why. It seems counterintuitive to me and annoying to deal with. I think it would be much more thoughtful if they placed the abrasive side down so that you could readily see what the P numbers are without having to turn them over to confirm. That would be nice.

But the part that really irritates me is that as the Systainer is handled in shipping, the face up abrasives scratch the lid card and that makes it look scratched. I would like it to be clean and pristine.

So Festool, if you're reading this, the user experience would be enhanced if you just had your crew pack it with the backside facing up. Think more like Apple - because the scratches: they are annoying.

 

[Vondawg]

Oh …should I bite on this one…ive re-read and it seems like you just needed to vent…not really asking ..but we all gets a bug up our ass now and then…in the end these are TOOLS and expendable..they get trashed if your using them. I wish some of my cherished tools looked or survived my working journey …and it’s tough..I know some of us work jobs,have businesses, and Festool falls into and means something different to all of us..but when you’ve chosen “a system”designed for the traveling woodworker/carpentar/specialist it falls into a slot that hasn’t been available before (Im speaking as an old fart..working remote for 40 yrs ) and prized tools just get used up even when taken care of….they end up in the expendable catagory. Nothing at all wrong with trying to keep them that way ..but shit happens right….I see how you carefully find your tools and are able to travel around and barter…your lucky and I respect you and your journey

 

[onocoffee]

Oh …should I bite on this one…ive re-read and it seems like you just needed to vent…not really asking ..but we all gets a bug up our ass now and then…in the end these are TOOLS and expendable..they get trashed if your using them. I wish some of my cherished tools looked or survived my working journey …and it’s tough..I know some of us work jobs,have businesses, and Festool falls into and means something different to all of us..but when you’ve chosen “a system”designed for the traveling woodworker/carpentar/specialist it falls into a slot that hasn’t been available before (Im speaking as an old fart..working remote for 40 yrs ) and prized tools just get used up even when taken care of….they end up in the expendable catagory. Nothing at all wrong with trying to keep them that way ..but shit happens right….I see how you carefully find your tools and are able to travel around and barter…your lucky and I respect you and your journey

I hear you and I agree. I expect the tools and accessories to get tarnished as I use them. I accept that. I just like them to start out pristine and fancy!

 

[ChuckS]

No, new preimum products should not arrive in less than prestine conditions.

Would any one of your accept a brand new car from a dealership when told there was a tiny scratch on the bumper or door?

 

[luvmytoolz]

I have no qualms with tools accruing battle scars over time but I'm with you guys, I think there's no excuse when it would take less than the bare minimum effort to have them arrive in good order instead of marked or damaged.

A simple paper sheet on top would have protected the contents.

Yes they are a tool brand, but they're a premium tool brand, and to not go that minutely little extra effort to ensure the goods arrive in the condition expected, really isn't good enough to me.

 

[Cheese]

So Festool, if you're reading this, the user experience would be enhanced if you just had your crew pack it with the backside facing up. Think more like Apple - because the scratches: they are annoying

I agree...even though this isn't a huge issue, it still is very annoying especially if Festool is no longer offering the Systainer cover liners as has been recently reported...that certainly makes things a lot worse.

What I've done for my tools and abrasive Systainers is to alternate the abrasives in the stack so that they're, hook & loop surface to hook & loop surface and then abrasive surface to abrasive surface. This makes it much easier to select individual abrasive papers without everything clinging to each other. And if you believe in the law of averages, it should 50% of the time, leave a stack of sandpaper with the hook & loop side up which allows you to know what grit the stack is. For further identification, I also take the original Festool sandpaper packaging and cut out the grit information in the shape of the sandpaper and place that on the individual stack of sandpaper for easier identification.

Some examples...

 

[mino]

It may seem like I'm bitching a lot this week because of my RTS thread, but my local dealer called me today to let me know that my RTS Abrasive Systainer came in. Normally, they have a couple of them but this past couple weeks they've been blowing through them and so I ordered one. Whenever I buy these abrasive sets I typically will look through the stack and see which one is the nicest and choose that.

...

Not sure about you, but I always store the paper abrasive-side-up, to see if the paper is used or new on a first glance. I mark the slots for grit identification.

---

As for adding some padding .. agree .. Festool/TTS are, historically, ecological nuts on this. As discussed earlier, one of the core reasons Systainers came to be was to avoid packaging waste.

In this philosophy, any padding/packing material that is non-essential is seen as superfluous waste.

The fact you get shipped no to minimum waste to you is the ultimate premium in this philosophy.
Meaning, you have it upside down. They DO CARE. They care to such an insane level they are willing to annoy the "I want it pretty" customers to stick to their ecological philosophy/message.

This is the same as the tools moving around in the systainers in shipping discussed earlier. They proud themselves on the Systainer concept allowing for not adding padding/packing materials since they came out with it. And given how religiously nutty Germans are on this as a society, Festool would be eaten alive had they suddenly started adding padding where there was none before .. I am not joking.


What I am saying, this is more a political question than technical. With the new ESG 'guidelines' it is now even regulatorily enforced. And yes, all that is wrong for all kinds of reasons as far as I am concerned ..

Either way, what you are annoyed at is more attention to detail than pretty much any other company out there. Just that the attention is based on a value system ideologically incompatible with yours.

 

[onocoffee]

Not sure about you, but I always store the paper abrasive-side-up, to see if the paper is used or new on a first glance. I mark the slots for grit identification.

---

As for adding some padding .. agree .. Festool/TTS are, historically, ecological nuts on this. As discussed earlier, one of the core reasons Systainers came to be was to avoid packaging waste.

In this philosophy, any padding/packing material that is non-essential is seen as superfluous waste.

The fact you get shipped no to minimum waste to you is the ultimate premium in this philosophy.
Meaning, you have it upside down. They DO CARE. They care to such an insane level they are willing to annoy the "I want it pretty" customers to stick to their ecological philosophy/message.

This is the same as the tools moving around in the systainers in shipping discussed earlier. They proud themselves on the Systainer concept allowing for not adding padding/packing materials since they came out with it. And given how religiously nutty Germans are on this as a society, Festool would be eaten alive had they suddenly started adding padding where there was none before .. I am not joking.


What I am saying, this is more a political question than technical. With the new ESG 'guidelines' it is now even regulatorily enforced. And yes, all that is wrong for all kinds of reasons as far as I am concerned ..

Either way, what you are annoyed at is more attention to detail than pretty much any other company out there. Just that the attention is based on a value system ideologically incompatible with yours.

My system is a little different. In the abrasive systainers, I turn the abrasives face down so I can see the markings on the back. Sheets that are actually being used or have been used, I keep in the individual tools' Systainer so they're always at hand.

And my suggestion on turning the abrasives face down does not add any padding or packing material. They just face down and the soft back does not abrade the lid card - and makes it easy for the user to see which abrasives are at the ready.

And when you say that they have more ATD than others, I say they do not have enough, as this issue of the card abrasion can be readily "solved" with minimal impact on their processes - all they have to do is place the stack of abrasives face down when inserting them into the Systainer.

 

[mino]

My system is a little different. In the abrasive systainers, I turn the abrasives face down so I can see the markings on the back. Sheets that are actually being used or have been used, I keep in the individual tools' Systainer so they're always at hand.

And my suggestion on turning the abrasives face down does not add any padding or packing material. They just face down and the soft back does not abrade the lid card - and makes it easy for the user to see which abrasives are at the ready.

And when you say that they have more ATD than others, I say they do not have enough, as this issue of the card abrasion can be readily "solved" with minimal impact on their processes - all they have to do is place the stack of abrasives face down when inserting them into the Systainer.

What I am presuming is that:
1) The abrasives being "face up" is very much intentional. They expect the customer to use them that way, so they store it that way - the same the abrasives are stored in boxes and the boxes are made to be used operationally, not just allow for safe transport. The idea being that your average customer can just open the systainer and start using it right away, not further preparation/unpacking needed.

I am not stating that is necessarily optimal for a hobby customer scenario. Just explaining the thinking why the paper is shipped abrasive side up.


What I am confident of claiming:
2) That the fact there is no padding as a rule is a conscious and intentional choice. Not a cost-saving exercise. Not a lack of TLC.

Hell, they went to the trouble of inventing the whole Systainer concept to allow for this. That is the complete opposite of not-caring-enough.


TLDR:
TTS/Festool has a culture of caring too much about their packaging and has come to conclusions/decisions that are antithetical to the consumerist society of today's West. That is at the core of the issue discussed. It is NOT about NOT CARING. Period.

---

I personally think Festool is going overboard with "ecology at all costs". BUT. That is what they are. It is what makes them Festool as opposed to, say, the Makita Corporation.

We cannot have it both ways. It is like the woman you love for her smile when happy, yet have to put up with her mood when pissed. Either we have the Festool who is philosophically, almost religiously, anti-waste, trying to make stuff and every part or component last as long as technically feasible, often at the cost of losing sales. The Festool which annoys most Apple customers. OR we get a consumerist posh Festool, one which will never make the things many her love, but will ship stuff to you nicely cushioned.

I am not arguing the current packaging approach is optimal for a (hobby) customer. BUT. I am also very conscious what would happen should the "religion" get overturned. Eventually, we would get tools that are materially *intentionally* time-bombed at the end of that journey as the only thing enforcing longevity-first design is the ecological "religion". Every other business incentive says it is wrong /for the company/.

I am openly stating this as it is just not obvious when the first /positive/ things happen what such a philosophy change actually means at the end of the line.

 

[mino]

To add:

Yes, I do believe Festool should include paper shims /between tool and insert/ to both packed tools and fillers above the abrasives for shipping. Completely forgoing it is just silly ecological extremism.

No, I do not believe this would pass the 'High Council of Festool' muster, the ESG regulatory muster, nor the German societal scrutiny. Hence not gonna happen on a general basis.


FUSA can probably add some padding for the US market, but that would add costs and may not be enough given how much of a trip the stuff has behind before getting into their HQ warehouse.

 

[Cheese]

And when you say that they have more ATD than others, I say they do not have enough, as this issue of the card abrasion can be readily "solved" with minimal impact on their processes - all they have to do is place the stack of abrasives face down when inserting them into the Systainer.

As I'm thinking about this post, I'm trying to remember what Festool item I purchased new, a few years ago, that when I received it, the entire upper cover liner was damaged beyond recognition. It was as I said, previously, annoying but moreover, the explicit reason for the cover liner/insert is to give some guidance as to what items go where in the Systainer. When the cover liner/insert is damaged so severely, they may as well just leave it out of the Systainer as it provides little to no guidance.

 

[Duckler]

It may seem like I'm bitching a lot this week because of my RTS thread, but my local dealer called me today to let me know that my RTS Abrasive Systainer came in. Normally, they have a couple of them but this past couple weeks they've been blowing through them and so I ordered one. Whenever I buy these abrasive sets I typically will look through the stack and see which one is the nicest and choose that.

Now you might be saying: "Nicest? They're all brand new so they're all the same" - and normally I would agree. However, what I've learned is that when packing the Systainers, they put the abrasives in so that the abrasive side is up. I don't know why. It seems counterintuitive to me and annoying to deal with. I think it would be much more thoughtful if they placed the abrasive side down so that you could readily see what the P numbers are without having to turn them over to confirm. That would be nice.

But the part that really irritates me is that as the Systainer is handled in shipping, the face up abrasives scratch the lid card and that makes it look scratched. I would like it to be clean and pristine.

So Festool, if you're reading this, the user experience would be enhanced if you just had your crew pack it with the backside facing up. Think more like Apple - because the scratches: they are annoying.

I agree on the bitchery.
Festool is not Amazon. When paying Festool prices we should not be getting “Used, like new” products.
That comment about “Think like Apple” puts it in the proper frame.

 

[Cheese]

Is bitchery actually a word? If so...me likeee.

 

[luvmytoolz]

Is bitchery actually a word? If so...me likeee.

Apparently so! ;-)

 

[mino]

...
That comment about “Think like Apple” puts it in the proper frame.

That also means Chinese production. Planned obsolescence. Limited options with only one "right way" to do stuff. Walled garden on interoperability. No spare parts availability. Severely limited to no repairability.

Careful what you wish for.

 

[luvmytoolz]

That also means Chinese production. Planned obsolescence. Limited options with only one "right way" to do stuff. Walled garden on interoperability. No spare parts availability. Severely limited to no repairability.

Careful what you wish for.

Different grits require a different model and the power cord is an optional extra? ;-)

 

[peter halle]

Well, I happen to like having my abrasives face up. That way, as I work in my non-pristene work area and am sanding, I can leave the lid open without fear of stuff getting inside and getting stuck in the fuzz on the back of the pad. Getting stuff stuck there and then putting that disk on and sanding with it can cause those wonderful squiggles. I wonder if that might be why Festool does it that way?

Peter

 

[onocoffee]

What I am presuming is that:
1) The abrasives being "face up" is very much intentional. They expect the customer to use them that way, so they store it that way - the same the abrasives are stored in boxes and the boxes are made to be used operationally, not just allow for safe transport. The idea being that your average customer can just open the systainer and start using it right away, not further preparation/unpacking needed.

I'm curious then, from your perspective, what the differences would be for their packers to place the abrasives face down, both to preserve the lid card and allow the user to readily identify the abrasive P level? Do you think it places an unprofitable burden for the packers to place the abrasives in the Systainer in this orientation? How would this orientation cause the further preparation/unpacking that you noted?

What I am confident of claiming:
2) That the fact there is no padding as a rule is a conscious and intentional choice. Not a cost-saving exercise. Not a lack of TLC.

Hell, they went to the trouble of inventing the whole Systainer concept to allow for this. That is the complete opposite of not-caring-enough.

I'm not sure if I haven't been clear on this, but I've not advocated for lining or padding of any sort. Not sure why you seem focused on refuting that which is not being proffered.

What I am talking about is turning the abrasives over in the Systainer to provide for a more wholesome product experience - and as you have noted both here and in other discussions, Festool is concerned about their user experience. It is my position that turning the abrasives face down will enhance that experience rather than detract - as the current orientation has the potential to do.

That also means Chinese production. Planned obsolescence. Limited options with only one "right way" to do stuff. Walled garden on interoperability. No spare parts availability. Severely limited to no repairability.

Careful what you wish for.

Hmmm, this is a curious pathway of thinking. But perhaps you are an Android user? Though it's been awhile since I bought an Android phone (I used to carry one while traveling in Asia years ago), even Lenovo had borrowed from Think Apple in their presentation by that point.

The notion that Thinking Like Apple in terms of packaging and presentation necessarily means moving production to China is laughable. Perhaps if the thought was to Think Like Black & Decker, that would be apropos.

I'm really curious to know why you defend against the notion of changing the orientation of the abrasives in the Systainer? Does this one different motion in packaging swing TTS to shutting down operations in Europe? Let's bear in mind that the idea of a stocked Abrasives Systainer is one that FT.de imported from FTUSA.

 

[Packard]

I order my sanding discs for my Bosch random orbital sander from Amazon. They arrive in a light duty blister pack. I would have assumed that Festool would have too. It is clear on all sides so you can read the numbers before opening the pack.

And it is a very inexpensive process to apply. For any number of reasons, I think it makes sense.

 

[mino]

I'm curious then, from your perspective, what the differences would be for their packers to place the abrasives face down, both to preserve the lid card and allow the user to readily identify the abrasive P level? Do you think it places an unprofitable burden for the packers to place the abrasives in the Systainer in this orientation? How would this orientation cause the further preparation/unpacking that you noted?

I'm not sure if I haven't been clear on this, but I've not advocated for lining or padding of any sort. Not sure why you seem focused on refuting that which is not being proffered.

My point is that professionals are /presumed/ to use the paper abrasive-side-up. So that is how it is placed in the systainer to be ready-to-use as shipped.

What is a "more wholesome experience" for some - You - is an annoyance for others. Festool consciously chose to prioritise the "others" for the time being.

That said, I concur with your pain and THUS say the obvious way to achieve your objective AND to keep the other customers happy who are happy today - is to place a paper or a foam liner atop the insert which would prevent the paper getting in touch with the lid. Then I note that, unfortunately, such an all-happy solution is unlikely for other, philosophical reasons.

..
Hmmm, this is a curious pathway of thinking. But perhaps you are an Android user? Though it's been awhile since I bought an Android phone (I used to carry one while traveling in Asia years ago), even Lenovo had borrowed from Think Apple in their presentation by that point.

The notion that Thinking Like Apple in terms of packaging and presentation necessarily means moving production to China is laughable. Perhaps if the thought was to Think Like Black & Decker, that would be apropos.

I'm really curious to know why you defend against the notion of changing the orientation of the abrasives in the Systainer? Does this one different motion in packaging swing TTS to shutting down operations in Europe? Let's bear in mind that the idea of a stocked Abrasives Systainer is one that FT.de imported from FTUSA.

I was reacting to someone who suggested Festool should "Think like Apple" and concisely pointed out that Apple is a maximum-profit public company while Festool is a private/family business with a completely different value system. Part of that value system being they value ecology, community /both employees and their home country/ above profit ... and that is relevant as it is being -indirectly- criticised in this thread as that is the cause for a different-than-Apple approach to such things.

What you and the poster want is to pick what is good about Apple and merge it with what is good about Festool. Ignoring/unaware those are often mutually exclusive characteristics.

In short, I am pointing out that an "Apple-like" hypothetical Festool would be a solely-profit-driven company that would operate in a way most people hanging around here would definitely not appreciate.


Apologies for long-winded comments. I am a master of nuance, not of concise messaging ...

In short, to repeat again as it is being consistently "lost in translation".
- I am NOT saying the current approach is in my view optimal /for hobby users in US, at least/.
- I am then explaining WHY it is done the way it is done.
- And, mainly, I am REFUTING your accusations that Festool "does not care about the details" as the exact opposite is the case here.


I would suggest to avoid ad hominems. What devices we use for our private purposes has zero relation to the topics at hand.