I'm at a Festool Crossroad

[John Viola]

???

At the risk of sounding like a heretic...

Has anyone been disappointed by their Festool collection?  I went in big-time last fall (CT Midi, MFT 1080, ETS150/3, ETS125, OF1010, TS55) and think they are great tools.  I haven't had time to really put them through their paces (I have 3 small kids and showering is a luxury) but have been throughly impressed with most everything about the tools themselves.

That said, it is a new way to work for me (at least the 55 and MFT combo) and I have had a devil of a time getting it to work right.  I've posted here before about the difficulty I've had getting the MFT rail to cut square, and even after all those great tips, it's still not working right.  My tablesaw is easier to use than this combo right now, and I wound up turning to it to finish all the parts of a set of cabinets I'm making.  The MFT and TS55 made all the cuts out of square (or at least their user did). 

Now I am thinking of selling off the MFT, TS55, and OF1010.  I don't really want to, because I feel like I am missing something, but at the same time my shop time is limited and I don't have enough of it to tinker around to get this to work right.  That's why I sold off my EZ SMart setup-great idea, but I'd rather cut wood than endlessly tinker with my tools to make a simple cut.  (That's actually the same reason I buy Lie-Nielsen planes instead of vintage-fettling is almost non-existent.)

Anyone else been there?  Was this religion for you the minute you made the first cut?  Or was there as steeper-than-expected learning curve?

John, up too early and feeling contemplative.

 

[Eli]

I'm still on the 'curve' after a year of using them exclusively.
I'd say they work well for me, I'm lucky to have a tool solution for almost every situation now.

There are frustrating times to be sure. I just could not do without a tablesaw, but having gotten the CMS, I have to install the TS-55 to use it!

What I discovered is that there are many situations where material is processed from one config to the other. But you have to think ahead a bit to be ready for transitions so that you don't waste time going backwards.

The saw rail and table are not the end-all be all of everything tool. Sometimes nothing else will do but a tablesaw. Having said that, if all you ever did with a TS55 and rail was break down sheet goods, I still think it's worth having.

 

[bruegf]

That said, it is a new way to work for me (at least the 55 and MFT combo) and I have had a devil of a time getting it to work right.  I've posted here before about the difficulty I've had getting the MFT rail to cut square, and even after all those great tips, it's still not working right.  My tablesaw is easier to use than this combo right now, and I wound up turning to it to finish all the parts of a set of cabinets I'm making.  The MFT and TS55 made all the cuts out of square (or at least their user did). 

John,

I spent several hours fiddling with the fence adjustment before getting square cuts.  I now have a 24" square piece of particle board that I use as a square to reset the fence/rail alignment if I need to move either the fence or the rail for a non 90 degree cut, and that greatly simplifies getting it squared up again.  Once I got the alignment right, I found that I rarely use the table saw for cross cuts anymore.

My advice is to stick w/ it - its worth it once you get it sorted out, but for the money I feel it should be a lot easier to get it indexed to 90 degrees.

Fred

 

[John Viola]

John,

...My advice is to stick w/ it - its worth it once you get it sorted out, but for the money I feel it should be a lot easier to get it indexed to 90 degrees.

Fred

Agreed!  I guess I was expecting instant nirvana the way it was discussed in several places and that hasn't been my experience.  I can see how useful it can be, but it's hard breakign down the years of doing something one way and seeing past everything else.  Perhaps this just wasn't the best time for me to jump in the way I did.

Thanks.

 

[Jesse Cloud]

Hey John,
I hear you.  I just don't have the natural aptitude that a lot of woodworkers seem to have and it takes me a while to get a tool, even Festool, to do what I want it to.  I often go through a stage of being discouraged with a new tool (and don't always come out of it).  I struggled with the MFT and TS55 combo for a while, but eventually it clicked and now it cuts as square as I can measure.  I never use the tablesaw for crosscuts anymore.

A couple of things that helped me with the mft squaring issue were: I got a good large square (a plastic drafting square), I remembered to tighten the stop behind the fence once it was adjusted, I started clamping the workpiece even if it seemed unnecessary.

If there are any other Festoolians around, pay a visit and watch them adjust and use theirs.  Give yourself another project or two to get in the Festool groove, and if you still aren't having fun, put it on craigslist - I'll bet you can get 90% or better of what you paid or it!!

 

[Daviddubya]

I use the TS55 and MFT to cut down panels and do crosscuts more often than on my table saw.  Once set square, it remains square.  I don't use the TS55/MFT for making angled cuts, so the square setting does not get changed.  We would like to help.  Can you tell us more about your experience, and maybe why you are not getting square cuts?  One thing I must remember to do is to set the rail solidly onto the front bracket, especially when changing the thickness adjustment.  Also I always check to be sure the front of the rail is properly seated on the bracket before making a cut.  Hope that helps.

 

[poto]

Hi John - I'm sorry you're so disappointed. That's very frustrating, particularly given how we all rave about the tools. One thing that might help for making square cuts is the Woodpecker 18 inch speed square (http://www.woodpeck.com/speedsquare.html). Eiji introduced me to it when I visited his shop. It's big enough that you can but it up aginst the rail and the fence, and align them very accurately.

Some thoughts on using the MFT1080 fence: put the angle guide (with the two feet that go into the MFT holes) as close to the rail as you can get it, and make sure you clamp the far end of the fence to the MFT side profile. It's pretty flexible otherwise. The speedsquare can really help make this an accurate squaring, quickly.

You might also be using some techniques more suited to other tools you've used. For instance, the plunge action of the saw is quite different than using a regular circular or plunge saw. You have to keep the saw flat on the rail, and push down on the handle, rather than lowering the saw into a cut. It's possible that old habits are affecting the use of your tools. I'm fortunate that I didn't have other tools before the Festools! Nothing to unlearn.

As Daviddubya suggested, you might give some more details of your problems - there are some pretty amazing people on the FOG who are bound to have suggestions.

That being said, if the tools don't work for you, then they don't work for you. Nobody here is judging you, or has any stake in your continuing to use Festools as opposed to tools that work for you! But we'd sure like to help you get the most out of your tools before you make your decision.

 

[Steve Jones]

John (and any other new users getting frustrated by the learning curve)

There are a lot of folks having various problems with the system, having spent some time watching this board for the occaisional gem of advice or experience I have noticed a few common problems all of which exist in the users head, not with the tools (no, I'm not one of those who believe festools are perfect either)

This whole issue with the MFT cutting square for example, we've had pages and pages of waffle about jigs and stuffing pegs in the clamp holes which pretty much boil down to someone telling you about how to drive a car with some sticks and lengths of rope while sitting on the roof because they havent learnt how to open the drivers door.

The simple fact is you have to learn how to use the system the way it was designed to be used, like anything else that has to be learned as long as your going in the wrong direction you will be going through a frustrating process of fighting with it instead of working with it.

I'll continue with the example of the MFT (appropriate since it was your stated problem area too) - First thing you have to is understand it's purpose - it makes right angle cuts on sheet goods, it also does a very good job at a bunch of other tasks, and cuts any other angles but lets concentrate on that primary task. (as a quick aside, a table saw's primary task is to make parrallel cuts in stock - the point being all you can get to from parrallel lines is to more parrallel lines, from right angle cuts you can get to parrallel)

First set up your fence correctly, this is a must for any professional quality tool, take a piece of ply with straight, parrallel long sides (you can use your tablesaw for this it can't help but make a good job of it, and you need total accuracy from here on in) size should be about 3' long and 24" wide, set your MFT fence at 90 degrees and cut the board accross the middle.

Now raise the rail and flip the right hand (offcut) half over so the cut edges are together again but the other face is up. slide both pieces with the cut edges together up against the middle of the fence if the edges are tight against the fence you may see a tapered cut line, (a tapered slot between the two boards) if you're cut was perfectly square there will be no taper.

If the taper gets larger away from you, measure the gap at it's widest point, then losen the fence clamp (the clamp that locks the fence to the left hand frame of the MFT and move the rail (measured at the left frame) back (away from you) 3/4 of the width of the gap.

clamp the rail clamp again, flip the cut piece back over, slide both boards until the cut line (which will be straight again) back under the rail edge and re-cut (you may have to cut twice since the angle has changed slightly).

Flip the cut piece again as one last check, no taper should appear, once you get here you have set the fence perfectly to 90 degrees.

now we're at this point, first mark the MFT top at the left edge (make a good strong line about 3" long in from the edge) on both sides of the fence, (marking both sides will allow you to return to this point exactly whatever else changes in your setup).

While you're at it, use the allen wrench to set the angle indicator to 90 (loosen the allen screw in the top of the pointer casting and move the casting to align the pointer with the scale)

Despite what you may have read elsewhere on this board, the alignment between the top and the rails will not move unless you do something drastic to the MFT.

 

[nate858]

  I have had my mft3 for  3 months now.  And after seting the fence square, it has stayed that way.  I have taken it off,  cut 45 degree angles.  For a while I was checking the square after resetting with my Bosch digital angle finder.  But it came right on 90% every time so I have stopped checking.  But I have found that locking the extended end of the fence down is a must to keep it from flexing.  That and a cut jig for cutting thin strips.  It has been everything I thought it would be and more.  It is the most used tool in my humble shop.  Given that the MFT3 fence is far better than the 1080 model.

 

[johnsonri]

John,

I was in a situation very very similiar to yours a while back. I had bought a ton of Festool tools and didn't have that instant gratification that many seem to have. I tell you what though, everything came together, with respect to setting things square, when I got the MFS template.

Before I got the MFS, the thought of getting the template seemed like throwing yet more money at the situation....and it was 

But, I'll tell you, it was well worth it for me. Frustration level went down very quickly and has not risen again...atleast not because of 'out of square' or perfectly straight/parallel cuts.   

 

[John Viola]

Thanks to all for the concern and suggestions. 

Tough to say what the issue is-as I mentioned, I posted about this before and came away full of enthusiasm for the techniques being discussed (or "waffle", as Steve Jones put it-made me laugh out loud). but in the end wound up with the same problem.  Now I've been at this for a while, and most things I can figure out when I screw up.  But this is a whole new concept to me and sometimes I can't see the forest for the trees.  For whatever reason, though, whenever I try to make a square cut, I end up WAY out.  So I figure I have to be doing something wrong or the tool is pretty out of whack, but that doesn't seem to be the case. 

One of the first things I did when I "squared" the fence at first was tighten down that stop at the end of the fence, because even then I could see how flexible it was. I think my biggest problem is the rail itself-I'm not sold on the brackets used to hold it in the air.  And while I am at it, I wish the whole setup could be squared with the rail flat on the table surface and not suspended above because of the fence running underneath.  I see the need for the fence underneath, but it makes squaring difficult.

I'm thrilled with the sanders (though I could do without the sandpaper packaging and pricing, but whatever...) and the saw is a great tool.  In all honesty I would probably keep that one way or the other because I like that too.  I think in the end I'm just not thrilled with the MFT rail system.  We'll have to let it ride a bit to see what happens. 

The OF1010, though...buyer's remorse.  Wish I had sprung for the 1400, because 90% of my router bits are 1/2 inch.  That leaves me with a really expensive (but nice) trim router.

Anyway, enough whining.  Thanks for the input all, and I'll report back after a few more attempts.

 

[Cannuck]

Well John, I am sorry that you've had remorse about your Festool purchases.  The only regrets I've had with Festool purchases are the Systainer 1 and the SYS-HWZ (With tool insert). 

Other than that, my only remorse is when I get my credit card bill after I've purchased yet another Festool. 

I think it's important to accept that all tools have things that they are really good at, and other things that they are capable of doing - but don't excel at.  I can loosen or tighten a nut and bolt with a hammer and a screwdriver in a pinch, but a wrench is really far more efficient.  I think the same can be said for a tablesaw or mitre saw versus a TS55 and an MFT. 

I've accumulated an arsenal of power and hand tools (both Festool and other) over the past 3 years.  As such, I am fortunate to have the best tool for each job I encounter (although I still lust for a good bandsaw).  When I started out, I only had a few hand tools, a porter cable circular saw, adjustable mitre guage and a speed square.  Sure I could accomplish alot with those, but as I added an SCMS, Table Saw, jig saw and router into the mix, my capabilities, quality and efficiency increased exponentially.  Now that I have added a dust extractor, and a number of Festool "systems" that work with MFT and guide rails in the past six months - my work has never been better quality or more enjoyable.

That's my two cents worth.  If you want to sell that OF1010 though, I'd be happy to buy it.  : 

 

[mhch]

One of the first things I did when I "squared" the fence at first was tighten down that stop at the end of the fence, because even then I could see how flexible it was. I think my biggest problem is the rail itself-I'm not sold on the brackets used to hold it in the air.  And while I am at it, I wish the whole setup could be squared with the rail flat on the table surface and not suspended above because of the fence running underneath.  I see the need for the fence underneath, but it makes squaring difficult.

Squaring the rail against the fence or vice versa became quick, simple, and repeatable when
I started using 20mm dowels (in my case, PVC pipe sections) plugged into MFT holes.

3 dowels inserted in a horizontal row, rest the fence against them
3 dowels inserted in a vertical row, rest the rail against them.
Then rail and fence are square, 0.001" over 24" according to my own measurements using the 5-cut method

You may want to use shims, like pieces of 3/4" MDF (all from the same panel), between dowels and fence/rail
if these two are not quite where you want them to be. For instance, avoiding the kerf line going right
across a series of vertical holes.

 

[Tinker]

One of the first things I did when I "squared" the fence at first was tighten down that stop at the end of the fence, because even then I could see how flexible it was. I think my biggest problem is the rail itself-I'm not sold on the brackets used to hold it in the air.  And while I am at it, I wish the whole setup could be squared with the rail flat on the table surface and not suspended above because of the fence running underneath.  I see the need for the fence underneath, but it makes squaring difficult.

The OF1010, though...buyer's remorse.  Wish I had sprung for the 1400, because 90% of my router bits are 1/2 inch.  That leaves me with a really expensive (but nice) trim router.

A couple of responders mentioned using a speed square.  If you have a speed square, note that the flat flange of one edge will fit perfectly into the groove on the top of your fence. (at least my 12"er does) Just set the speed square into the groove, lower your guide bar down so the other edge of the speed square will contact the back of the guide bar.  Adjust the fence so the square edge of the speed square fitting perfectly against the bar indicates the bar is exactly 90? to the fence.  Make sure all screws on the fence/protractor are tight (I have found very tight to be a must)  When all at the adjustable end are tight and you still check out for square, secure the far end of the fence and be sure that is clamped tight. 

I have tried using squares of plywood to set bar/fence square, but doing it the way i, and others describe with the speed square seems to work the best and quickest for me.  As others have said, I never rest fence other than if i check and find it has moved for whatever reason.  If i make an angle cut, I use a protractor against a MFS.  Either a whole unit (400 or 700) or a single side piece clamped to MFT at the desired angle.

Last winter, I made some small cheese cutting boards.  I put a thin border piece all around the outside of each.  I set everything up so I could do my cross cuts, rip to thin (1/4") strips and make my 45? angle cuts at the ends of those strips.  All with one setup.  It took some immagination to figure it all out.  I would say that it actually might have been quicker with my old Tablesaw, but I am trying to do all with the Festool system.  Once i figured it out, if I were making a half dozen of the trays, it would hve been quicker wth the "system". 

Don't get too frustrated.  Sometimes, when a problem seems unsolvable, take a break.  Take a walk.  Work on another project for a while.  For me, half the fun of using the Festool system has been the problems i have had to figure out.  When you have used the tools for a while, the problems you have now will have found solutions that will just become automatic for you.  I got rid of my tablesaw to give me a little more working space in my shop.  Do I miss the TS?  You bet I do at times.  Can I do everything I want with the MFT/ATF 55 with the first try?  Let's just say that the scrap pile is getting smaller and smaller.  soon, I will have to go back to cuting into full length lumber for small projects :

Tinker

 

[lat]

Thanks to all for the concern and suggestions. 

Tough to say what the issue is-as I mentioned, I posted about this before and came away full of enthusiasm for the techniques being discussed (or "waffle", as Steve Jones put it-made me laugh out loud). but in the end wound up with the same problem.  Now I've been at this for a while, and most things I can figure out when I screw up.  But this is a whole new concept to me and sometimes I can't see the forest for the trees.  For whatever reason, though, whenever I try to make a square cut, I end up WAY out.  So I figure I have to be doing something wrong or the tool is pretty out of whack, but that doesn't seem to be the case. 

One of the first things I did when I "squared" the fence at first was tighten down that stop at the end of the fence, because even then I could see how flexible it was. I think my biggest problem is the rail itself-I'm not sold on the brackets used to hold it in the air.  And while I am at it, I wish the whole setup could be squared with the rail flat on the table surface and not suspended above because of the fence running underneath.  I see the need for the fence underneath, but it makes squaring difficult.

I'm thrilled with the sanders (though I could do without the sandpaper packaging and pricing, but whatever...) and the saw is a great tool.  In all honesty I would probably keep that one way or the other because I like that too.  I think in the end I'm just not thrilled with the MFT rail system.  We'll have to let it ride a bit to see what happens. 

The OF1010, though...buyer's remorse.  Wish I had sprung for the 1400, because 90% of my router bits are 1/2 inch.  That leaves me with a really expensive (but nice) trim router.

Anyway, enough whining.  Thanks for the input all, and I'll report back after a few more attempts.

I have no more problems aligning the fence to a perfect 90 deg to the rail. I stopped using a steel square and now rely on a perfect 1" MDF triangle with 21" and 28" sides, alleviating the problem of the rail resting usually 3/4" above the table. One thing to watch is to insure that the rail fits tightly in the metal tab on the front bracket. Mine did not when I got my MFT and my first cuts were slightly erratic. I fixed the poblem by removing the rail and carefully tapping on the metal tab with a hammer until I got a tight fit. After lots of use, the tab eventually wore down a groove on the bottom side of the rail causing slack again. I fixed it by loosening the screws holding the rail on the back bracket and sliding back the rail a little bit. Tight fit again.

 

[Michael Kellough]

I have no more problems aligning the fence to a perfect 90 deg to the rail. I stopped using a steel square and now rely on a perfect 1" MDF triangle with 21" and 28" sides, alleviating the problem of the rail resting usually 3/4" above the table. One thing to watch is to insure that the rail fits tightly in the metal tab on the front bracket. Mine did not when I got my MFT and my first cuts were slightly erratic. I fixed the poblem by removing the rail and carefully tapping on the metal tab with a hammer until I got a tight fit. After lots of use, the tab eventually wore down a groove on the bottom side of the rail causing slack again. I fixed it by loosening the screws holding the rail on the back bracket and sliding back the rail a little bit. Tight fit again.

There should be some play when a steel tab fits into an aluminum slot. If there isn't any play at first there soon will be.

What Festool did instead is put some deliberate misalignment in the guide rail/hinge fit so that the guide rail is always sprung against the steel tab. Back before I knew better I "fixed" my guide rail so it would be straight on the hinge and was rewarded with the same kind of unreliable cuts you got. Fortunately the "correct fit" was one of the first bits of wisdom I received from the old Yahoo FOG.

 

[Les]

One of the first things I did when I "squared" the fence at first was tighten down that stop at the end of the fence, because even then I could see how flexible it was. I think my biggest problem is the rail itself-I'm not sold on the brackets used to hold it in the air.  And while I am at it, I wish the whole setup could be squared with the rail flat on the table surface and not suspended above because of the fence running underneath.  I see the need for the fence underneath, but it makes squaring difficult.

When you drop the rail into the side bracket are you deflecting it a 1/32" when it seats on the bracket? This will allow to rail to come to the same point each time. If you don't, then the tang on the bracket is loose in the slot on the rail.

 

[mhch]

What Festool did instead is put some deliberate misalignment in the guide rail/hinge fit so that the guide rail is always sprung against the steel tab. Back before I knew better I "fixed" my guide rail so it would be straight on the hinge and was rewarded with the same kind of unreliable cuts you got. Fortunately the "correct fit" was one of the first bits of wisdom I received from the old Yahoo FOG.

This would really be worth a notice in the MFT manual !!

Since this is not the case, then what about a dedicated MFT README
entry in the FOG "reference" board about it ??

 

[Jim Becker]

Just as your work might evolve, your tool usage may also evolve. I bought an MFT1080 quite some time ago, but only really started using it recently when I have been doing some additional trim work and alterations in our house. Prior to that, it was nice to have, but not something I felt the need to reach for frequently. (In my shop, I have a MiniMax sliding table saw) I also have the OF1010 (as well as the OF1400). While I don't use the OF1010 much, it does fill the need from time to time, especially when I'm doing something that involves multiple routers. I also like it for more "delicate" work since it's smaller and lighter. I don't use these two tools much, but I believe that over time, I'll more than get my money's worth from the investment.

There is really only one Festool product that I own that has really not gotten much use and that's one of the small sanders. But that's probably my fault for just not pulling it out when I could. If this continues, perhaps I'll consider unloading it, but then again, it's also small enough that it would be quite usable by my girls should they choose to do some more small woodworking projects.

That all said, it's good to think about this from time to time. If your work and work patterns change, perhaps reconfiguring can help you better meet your needs while giving someone else the opportunity to put a little-used tool to more frequent use. I have done that recently with some other things...like a drum sander that just was taking up space.

 

[lat]

I have no more problems aligning the fence to a perfect 90 deg to the rail. I stopped using a steel square and now rely on a perfect 1" MDF triangle with 21" and 28" sides, alleviating the problem of the rail resting usually 3/4" above the table. One thing to watch is to insure that the rail fits tightly in the metal tab on the front bracket. Mine did not when I got my MFT and my first cuts were slightly erratic. I fixed the problem by removing the rail and carefully tapping on the metal tab with a hammer until I got a tight fit. After lots of use, the tab eventually wore down a groove on the bottom side of the rail causing slack again. I fixed it by loosening the screws holding the rail on the back bracket and sliding back the rail a little bit. Tight fit again.

There should be some play when a steel tab fits into an aluminum slot. If there isn't any play at first there soon will be.

What Festool did instead is put some deliberate misalignment in the guide rail/hinge fit so that the guide rail is always sprung against the steel tab. Back before I knew better I "fixed" my guide rail so it would be straight on the hinge and was rewarded with the same kind of unreliable cuts you got. Fortunately the "correct fit" was one of the first bits of wisdom I received from the old Yahoo FOG.

Michael
            interesting info, thanks. I concur with MHCH that this should be stated in the manual! Now I guess that there are two ways to get repeatable accuracy: 1) The mfr way - loose fit and rail tensioned toward one side ( by the way, which side or does it matter? Also this should still introduce some wear on the aluminium rail although perhaps not as much as a tight fit)  2) Do like I did and introduce a tight fit (it took a long time before wear on the rail caused some play again and the rail needs only slight repositioning to offer new contact points to the steel tab).

Louis