Just bought the TPC and I have a question for PDC and TPC Quadrive owners

[idratherplaytennis]

I just purchased the TID/TPC set yesterday and went out to play with it and see what kind of things I could expect. I do remodeling/repair/woodwork/jack of most trades sort of work with my tools, and I have plenty of alternatives and things to compare with.. but I'm looking mostly for perspective from existing or current owners of the Quadrive who are familiar with it's power.

I purchased the TPC mostly as an upgrade to my T18+3 which I love for the smoothness and versatility, however I've always gone towards my trusty burly Makita when I need actual speed and torque. Now- I know Festool drills aren't known for their torque compared to the contractor drills Makita, Dewalt, Bosch, Milwaukee throw out there, however at the same time, my first test was exceptionally disappointing. I clamped a piece of exceptionally dry 2x4 doug fir to my vise, and tested through it with a 1" Irwin SpeedBor bit seen here on Lowe's website. My Makita shot through on it's high speed gear, lower torque setting (no load speed 2100 rpm, couldn't find the torque value for high speed). The Festool stopped 1-2 mm in on both gears 4 and 3 (3600 and 2350 rpm, respectively) but went through with no issue at gear 2 (800rpm).

Now.. the real question I have is, what should I expect? Is this auger-style bit not meant for running at high speeds? I found a spot on FestoolUSA's spot for the TPC that specifically states under product details: "4th gear: Quick drilling with medium and small drill bits up to 1-3/8" (35 mm), for example Forstner drill bits." If you look at this linked bit from Lowe's website, the only glaring difference between this and a forstner bit is that forstner bits don't have the self-feeding screw tip. Maybe that's the issue, maybe not, but I can see a much bigger 1-3/8" forstner bit stalling out with just as much pressure as I would think this 1" self feed does. Am I expecting too much? There's a lot of video reviews of them chugging through massive timber on foot long auger bits in one go on what I would normally assume is the lower gear settings, however there's a lot touting it's speed. Yes- this drill is super smooth, and at least with my T18+3, I have come to truly appreciate it's delicate clutch settings when driving screws for reliably stopping where it should (I've never had a non-festool drill with a good clutch to stop reliably in the same spot time after time), however I would like to know if I either an expecting too much or if this sounds like the drill stopping this quickly into a dry 2x4 is a manufacturing defect, that it should power through.

I did ensure I had the drill set to drill (not percussion) and the dial was set on the drill icon, not any of the clutch settings. While not a 100% dealbreaker for me on this drill, I would very much like to know if it's underperforming. For the price I paid, I definitely got the smoothness I came to expect from Festool, but I am about 90% sure even my T18+3 on it's higher speed would drill through the 2x4.. in fact (goes outside), in fact yes. My T18+3 that I purchased 2-3 years ago blasts through just fine on high gear 2. Upon reviewing the manual, it is stopping with a single beep and no flashing indicator lights signaling that it's overloaded and not being triggered by the kickback stop feature (which should have indicator lights). I don't see any world where the higher end drill that should be fine with a 1-3/8 forstner bit on gear 4 is outperformed by it's much older and less expensive little brother.. (only difference was original testing was with a new 4ah fully charged battery on the TPC and a not so fully charged 5.0 on the T18, however the results were the same upon trying with the same batteries).

Any advice and insights into these drills would be greatly appreciated- whether it seems like a fluke, or maybe I need to return the drill to try out another and see if it's a defect. Thanks for your time and input.

 

[mino]

Not sure which Makita you have, but the big one (DDF486) they sell here has 125Nm of "hard" torque and 65mm "soft" torque at 550 rpm.

The TPC is listed at 75Nm/50Nm* at 500 rpm.

That on itself would indicated the TPC is half the power of that Makita. But it is not so - not entirely.

The "problem" here is the safety torque break on the TPC - if your Makita does not have it, it would have even more torque available as it can "tap" into its hard torque area. The TPC will never tap into the "hard torque" area - where the drill cannot maintain speed - due to the safety break.

Do notice the 50Nm listed for "wood" this is likely because wood is non-uniform, so the torque safety break will trigger way sooner than in case of the uniform metal drilling. That is the only explanation to me - the dill has no way of knowing what it is drilling into ... so this distinction is clearly marketing messaging to signify that in wood (and other non-homogenous materials) the torque-break may trigger sooner than 75Nm rating would indicate.

This translates to at your higher speeds:
Makita 486
125*550/2100 => 32Nm at 2100 rpm hard torque
65*550/2100 => 17Nm at 2100 rpm soft torque

TPC
75*500/2350 => 16Nm at 2350 rpm of "metal" torque /this is BOTH a "soft" torque and "hard torque" as the electronics works to prevent a "hard torque" event/
50*500/2350 => 10.5Nm at 2350 rpm of "wood" torque /this is a pseudo value really, designed to allow comparing with other drills which specify "hard torque" only/

75*500/770 => 49Nm at "800" rpm of "metal" torque
50*500/770 => 32Nm at "800" rpm of "wood" torque

As you can see, by the combination of the higher speed (2350 vs 2100), the lower rpm max torque is measured (500 vs 550) and the lower (electronics limited) "hard" torque, the TPC would get about  1/2 the "usable max torque for drilling" than the Makita DDF486 they sell over here has.

Now, the funny thing is that this "2x difference" actually is not a true 2x difference in power of the motors. If you used that Makita only in its (and your wrists) comfort zone, it would only be about 10% stronger - that is why the motor sizes and weights are so similar, the motors have equivalent "working ranges" but Festool setup the TPC in such a way is does not use its top torque zone and always operates in the "comfort" zone where the electronics can provide a constant-speed with varied load. In this the TPC is closer to the T18 than to the PDC - the PDC did not have a safety torque break.

I would say, you have the best combination - use the Makita for raw power when needed and the TPC for all other tasks. IMO your limbs will thank you for that.

The calculations will only slightly change for the older Makita which had 115Nm I believe.

 

[idratherplaytennis]

I understand the Makita has a lot more power.. and that's not a fair comparison. However after testing my T18 and having it not struggle at all either.. it is also outperforming with the exact same bit that is stopping the TPC, which is more of where the concern comes in on if it's an issue of getting checked out or if the "stronger Festool drill" is more sensitive (don't really believe it should be). I didn't expect my T18 to outperform on it's higher gear setting compared to the TPC's higher gear setting.

I also tried it out with self feeding spade bits and they had issues down until 7/8.

 

[mino]

I understand the Makita has a lot more power.. and that's not a fair comparison. However after testing my T18 and having it not struggle at all either.. it is also outperforming with the exact same bit that is stopping the TPC, which is more of where the concern comes in on if it's an issue of getting checked out or if the "stronger Festool drill" is more sensitive (don't really believe it should be). I didn't expect my T18 to outperform on it's higher gear setting compared to the TPC's higher gear setting.

I also tried it out with self feeding spade bits and they had issues down until 7/8.

Now, I do not say there is nothing wrong with your piece, having it checked is abosolutely right. Just that compared to a drill without a torque break it would seem "weak" specifically in the type of task you tried. E.g. a hole saw should fair "better" as it has a more steady load characteristic.

Running the numbers (50*450/1500=15 Nm), the TPC at speed 3 should have about the same power as the T18 at high speed. No more, but no less either.

 

[idratherplaytennis]

I actually haven't checked about the T18 and maybe it doesn't have a torque break on drill mode either. That could be the case entirely which I would agree with you on. I don't disagree with anything you've said- it just seems silly to have an issue struggling on a 1" bit. That said- I know my Makita doesn't like high speed on my self feed 1-3/8 Milwaukee switchblade set, but that's a different style of bit with a singular bit. I figured a 3 flute or even a 2 flute self feed spade bit wouldn't be an issue, but maybe that's just how I've been conditioned. It's just an unexpected result that I didn't think originally would be an issue. It was also honestly the first bit I found because I went out looked around and grabbed the first one I had laying around which was the 3 flute 1" self feed.

I did attempt to use a regular non-self feed spade bit and while I had to throw a lot of body weight behind it to get it to go into the wood, I suppose that's the closer comparison to using a Forstner bit as there is no self feed. Maybe the self feeds are just too aggressive for these drills in general since they want to pull the drill in with no regard to what they're doing. It's all a new experience for me. I tend not to use my Festools for "rough-in" work anyway as I do still view them as more for finesse work. I also intend to use the drill much more for high speed with sub 1/2" twist and countersink bits where there isn't exceptional forces it's going through.

I appreciate your input, mino. I'm still learning after-all. I was extremely disappointed with the T18's top end rpm when I got it for small twist bit drilling, but it's still turned into one of my favorite drills, so it could just be learning and leaning into what it's great at to get the best experience. It's not like I'd expect to use this for roughing out an entire house for electrical and definitely not plumbing. I should go try out some holesaws that don't self feed and try it there, the anti-kickback would be great to use if it works on those after almost breaking my wrist a few times with my Makita, plus some nasty bruises where it whipped out of my grip and slammed the back of my hand against a wall.