Kapex 120 or Something Else?

[Farming_Sawyer]

I was taking with a rep at my local festool dealer once day... He asked about my experience with the tools and what ones I might buy in the future. He asked if I might step up to a Kapex at some point.... I said when the issues are fixed.....

He was adamant that the "few" faulty saws are only a small percentage of total us sales and they always stand but the warranty... Many times over for some owners. An inconvenience for those of us who buy a tool to use it to make money, yes, for sure, but worth the extra price. Then he asked now I used my tools on the job. What sort of power did I have access to.... And stated that often they are finding the tools sent in for repair are getting to low a voltage or are being abused.

Now I don't know if that was the party line, or but covering. But three kapex owners present said that in daily usage over the past several years that never had an issue. And it certainly got me thinking about how I power my other tools on the job... How many miles of extension cord or distance from the panel is my outlet.  But definitely plug it into a CT, not some other device to turn on the extractor.... If any issue happen you want a clear festool provenance to the fault so the repair is on them, not you.

 

[glass1]

If running the kapex thru your ct than to main power is causing them to burnout than a recall is in order. The of 2200 which draws up to(operating term here up to... 18 amps) is not burning out when run thru our CT’s is it ?  The kapex draws up to ....13 amps. I have yet to ever see a kapex and ct trip a 15 amp breaker if nothing else is on it, therefore it’s not drawing more than 15 amps, put it to bed people.  I am on job sites all day long. Even if you ran the kapex and ct on separate breakers who would stop other carpenters and trades from plugging into one of your 2 breakers ? Happens all day long. Can you imagine hogging two breakers on a site to run your kapex and ct.  ridiculous.  All this talk is ignorant chatter.
Personally I see most people cutting with their chop boxes before the blade is up to speed and rarely checking to see that the speed control is maxed out for wood. Also Festool makes 12 tooth blade for ts saws yet no 40 tooth blade for kapex for general work. I still feel that there is an abnormal burnout rate for the kapex but if it’s because of our power than it’s on Festool to design tools for our power grid.  Just my 2 cents. If your offended or cannot handle my opinion So be it. Cheers

 

[RKA]

One thing I wondered, if you have a voltage drop, either from a long extension cord or long run to the panel or variations in what the power company delivers, does the Kapex motor draw higher amps to maintain its output?  If it does, how long would it take for a typical circuit breaker to trip?  10 seconds or more?  Even a cut across a 2x10 is completed in less than that.  So would the on/off nature of the tool and very limited peak load times explain why breakers aren’t tripping, but it’s still enough to do damage to the motor?

 

[glass1]

..... again if so.... than a recall is in order. 

 

[harry_]

If running the kapex thru your ct than to main power is causing them to burnout than a recall is in order. The of 2200 which draws up to(operating term here up to... 18 amps) is not burning out when run thru our CT’s is it ?  The kapex draws up to ....13 amps. I have yet to ever see a kapex and ct trip a 15 amp breaker if nothing else is on it, therefore it’s not drawing more than 15 amps, put it to bed people.  I am on job sites all day long. Even if you ran the kapex and ct on separate breakers who would stop other carpenters and trades from plugging into one of your 2 breakers ? Happens all day long. Can you imagine hogging two breakers on a site to run your kapex and ct.  ridiculous.  All this talk is ignorant chatter.
Personally I see most people cutting with their chop boxes before the blade is up to speed and rarely checking to see that the speed control is maxed out for wood. Also Festool makes 12 tooth blade for ts saws yet no 40 tooth blade for kapex for general work. I still feel that there is an abnormal burnout rate for the kapex but if it’s because of our power than it’s on Festool to design tools for our power grid.  Just my 2 cents. If your offended or cannot handle my opinion So be it. Cheers

I'll agree with you, with a caveat. I will not allow another tradesperson, or even my own guy(s) to put an air compressor on the same circuit as me.  I don't run leaky hoses, so random compressor starts are all but non existent for me. I may have a dozen different things plugged into my circuit, but I can only run them one at a time (+the CT). Go ahead, run off my outlet. Hook into one of my splits. Just not a compressor.

There are always at least 3 separate outlets/circuits. If not, I am on the phone to sparky as that is part of the 'site conditions' and electrician's rough.

 

[RKA]

..... again if so.... than a recall is in order.

Not arguing the Festool has botched their response to this or could handle it differently.  Just asking if this could explain the issues and give users some control over the outcome.  I’m no electrician, EE or anything of the like.  I only know too many amps over too little wire = no bueno.

 

[glass1]

So... has anybody wondered why all these kapexes are burning up when plugged into the CT’s but the CT’s are not burning up ?  If there was not enough voltage should we not see lots of CT’s burning up too ? 

 

[harry_]

So... has anybody wondered why all these kapexes are burning up when plugged into the CT’s but the CT’s are not burning up ?  If there was not enough voltage should we not see lots of CT’s burning up too ?

One would think so.

No variable speed/load control circuitry? or maybe it has something to do with the saw being more than just a little under powered?

 

[Cheese]

My intention is to use one as a clamp for a stop block (swing arm type - source: popular woodworking, see image) and the other as a hold-down for the work at the same time. Right now, I have to use a F-clamp (usually on the right side of the blade) for the stop block.

That's exactly what I use the 2nd clamp for when cutting multiple pieces of the same length.

Per Farming_Sawer's observation, I've also talked with the local Festool rep and he's very aware of the Kapex issue and has been personally involved in several of them. He also said Festool corporate was involved in trying to find a solution but that was at least 4-5 years ago.  [sad]

Seems like a simple problem to solve...start with the motor!!! [dead horse] 

I'm very interested if the new REB Kapex arrives with a different armature and field coil.  [smile]

[attachimg=1]

 

[Birdhunter]

I've used the stop block technique, butt you have to let the blade come to a complete stop before lifting the head or you will get a major kick back.

 

[ChuckS]

My understanding is that Cheese would remove the 1/4" spacer before he makes the cut, in which case the chance of kickback should be reduced if the blade is lifted before it coming to a complete stop. But lifting the blade while it is still spinning is not a good idea in any cuts, with or without the use of any type of stop block.

 

[Michael Kellough]

A hard stop on the cut-off side is risky, especially if it fully matches the profile of the end of the cut-off. What I mean is the hard stop should only have a small area of contact with the end of the stock to allow the off-cut to wiggle someplace other than the side of the blade. And of course the blade should stop before withdrawing the saw.

On the table saw I often use a vacuum hose (regular CT or other) to pull small off-cuts away from the blade. Works best for small pieces when using the miter gauge but also works great to keep narrow strips from touching the back of the blade. The hose is attached to a wood block that has a Mag-Switch installed. I also use this setup to catch debris when trimming the edge of a board, although sometimes I just set a board (with magnets in the bottom) close to the blade.

Taking the above to the miter saw you could use a hollow extrusion as the stop. Add a connection for a vacuum hose (could be a Y with the miter saw collection since the stock should block air flow). Should keep the off-cut safely tight to the stop.

 

[Cheese]

My understanding is that Cheese would remove the 1/4" spacer before he makes the cut, in which case the chance of kickback should be reduced if the blade is lifted before it coming to a complete stop.

You're correct Chuck.  [big grin]  Sometimes it's a gauge block, sometimes it's another piece of wood. It's just important to allow some room between the off-cut and the hard stop. I like the gauge blocks because they're lightweight, small and I can just pop it in my shirt pocket or apron pocket. Also when using the gauge block as a spacer, I just make sure the writing faces towards me and then I know everything is good to go. When using a piece of wood it's easy to confuse the proper gauging surface.

This photo shows the gauge block removed right before I make the cut.

[attachimg=1]

This photo is after the cut has been made. Just let the blade come to a stop and if the off-cut is heavy enough, it won't move more than .010"-.015" from the blade.

[attachimg=2]

 

[Kodi Crescent]

What a nice looking accessory fence!  I'm assuming you made that with 1/2" BB and a pattern bit on the router?

 

[Mario Turcot]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member] how is dust collection with such zero clearance fence?

 

[Cheese]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member] how is dust collection with such zero clearance fence?

I feel it's significantly better Mario than without the fence.  [smile]

I think I used 10mm ply so the Kapex clamps would still work. It's that fine line between something thick enough to not warp but something thin enough so you still have flexibility of where you can place the clamps.

 

[Mario Turcot]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member] how is dust collection with such zero clearance fence?

I feel it's significantly better Mario than without the fence. I think I used 10mm ply so the Kapex clamps would still work.

[thumbs up] [not worthy]

 

[DeformedTree]

I was taking with a rep at my local festool dealer once day... He asked about my experience with the tools and what ones I might buy in the future. He asked if I might step up to a Kapex at some point.... I said when the issues are fixed.....

He was adamant that the "few" faulty saws are only a small percentage of total us sales and they always stand but the warranty... Many times over for some owners. An inconvenience for those of us who buy a tool to use it to make money, yes, for sure, but worth the extra price. Then he asked now I used my tools on the job. What sort of power did I have access to.... And stated that often they are finding the tools sent in for repair are getting to low a voltage or are being abused.

Now I don't know if that was the party line, or but covering. But three kapex owners present said that in daily usage over the past several years that never had an issue. And it certainly got me thinking about how I power my other tools on the job... How many miles of extension cord or distance from the panel is my outlet.  But definitely plug it into a CT, not some other device to turn on the extractor.... If any issue happen you want a clear festool provenance to the fault so the repair is on them, not you.

He very well is just relaying what Festool has told him, but that line is problematic. You can't look at a dead tool and say it got low voltage.  You would have to have voltage monitoring in the tool recording this too a "black box" for them to read during repair. If the tools have that Festool has put the money in the wrong places.  Now, the damage the see may show over current, and they might be deciding this is from low voltage to maintain a constant power. But that could just mean they are diagnosing the problem wrong and blaming something external, not an internal issue.

I would be concerned anytime someone is asking what you will use the tool for or how.  Aside from the "none of your business" aspect, it has nothing to do with if the tool will fail.  It's designed to work withing a certain design space, as long as you are within that, all is fine.  He's clearly trying to "get you into a Kapex today" which is fine, that's his/her job. But if one is trying to find your unique usage space to see if the tool might die when any other would be fine, that is a problem.

If in the end the problem is voltage supply drop,  Festool better address this in the new model. In general folks don't have control over this. Utilities aren't held to anything. They don't follow their own specs.  I know this from experience, show that large loads drop the neighbor hood 10-15V per 110V leg, they will say it's out of spec, but do nothing. They don't care, they have a monopoly.  Maybe in the end Festool under estimated how much variation folks get from the grid and they didn't design the 110V model to a lot enough voltage because they read specs of the US power grid, and not based it on reality of the US grid.

 

[Cheese]

What a nice looking accessory fence!  I'm assuming you made that with 1/2" BB and a pattern bit on the router?

Thanks Kodi...that's 10mm BB and a jig saw. I also removed one of the small tips from the Kapex clamp pad to allow me to have more freedom with placement of the clamp and it also allows me to swivel the clamp around behind the fence. Previously I had to remove the clamp and then replace the clamp.

[attachimg=1]

 

[jarbroen]

If I don’t power my Kapex through my Festool vac, how can I get the vac to come on when I start up the Kapex?

The Festool Bluetooth remote is awesome!  My wife bought it for my birthday.  You install the module in the vacuum and then have a remote that wraps around the hose end.
It's great for general purpose vacuum duties as well as turning it on when you don't have tools plugged into the CT.
I think the BT setup is $80 or so.
I'd go for that before one of those vacuum switches you plug into.