Kapex is DEAD

[Brice Burrell]

By the way, while I was in Lebanon I asked about those Kapexes on the shelf shown in that image.  They were not there due to motor issues.  They were there due to severe abuse by the owners.

Just passing that info along.

Peter

Those saws will likely all get the preemptive armature fix.  This seems odd to do as "standard practice" since there is no motor problem...  I like Festool as much as the next guy, but this Kapex issue does tarnish the brand a bit.   

 

[Michael Kellough]

By the way, while I was in Lebanon I asked about those Kapexes on the shelf shown in that image.  They were not there due to motor issues.  They were there due to severe abuse by the owners.

Just passing that info along.

Peter

Those saws will likely all get the preemptive armature fix.  This seems odd to do as "standard practice" since there is no motor problem...  I like Festool as much as the next guy, but this Kapex issue does tarnish the brand a bit. 

Is this a "thing"? They're not simply replacing armatures with identical armatures are they?

Festool should extend the warranty on the Kapex until they can resolve whether there is in fact a problem, and ultimately fix it if there is.

I have to admit that the existence of this forum allows the the convenient accumulation of reports of problems while there is no similar facility for other manufactures. This may just be the appearance of problem when statistically it is no different than other manufacturers saws. But, it sure seems like a problem and regrettably it's kept me from buying a Kapex.

 

[Paul G]

All I know for sure is I won't be buying a Kapex. Was almost gonna a while back but just wasn't seeing the benefits of the extra price and back then was all the problems of the fence and deck not being flat which made the buy a craps shoot even then.

 

[nclemmons]

Untidy - I took the tour.  Yes, that was the 'Kapex repair area' in their repair room.  They have a similar area for vacs, a similar area for saws, and a similar area for drills that I saw.  Kapex looked no more 'stacked' than the other ones.  I think there were maybe 8 saws on the shelf under repair.  Similar number of vacs that I could see.  When you consider how many tools Festool sells, particularly when you see their warehouse with pallet stacks that go up at least 50 feet in the air, you get the idea they are operating at significant scale in the US.

 

[live4ever]

If there is a problem with the armature on some saws and the affected saws are known by manufacture date or serial, recall those saws for repair prior to burn out and provide the repair for free on warrantied saws or even for a nominal fee (NOT $900) for out of warranty saws.  Reimburse the people who have paid hundreds of dollars in excess for repairs due to this problem. 

If there is a problem with the armature on some saws and the affected saws are not known, provide the repair for free or for a nominal fee when the saw is sent in after burning out.  Reimburse the people who have paid hundreds of dollars in excess for repairs due to this problem. 

If there is a problem with the armature on ALL saws such that all saws will fail given a particular usage pattern or circumstance, this is a design defect and your customers deserve acknowledgment of the issue and options for resolution. 

I can't understand why some kind of resolution cannot be offered by a company like Festool which markets and prides itself on both the supposed quality of its tools and the service it provides.  Such a program would go so far in reassuring future purchasers of the Kapex, any Kapex II, or larger Festools in general.  And it would reassure those of us who are starting to feel our Kapex's are ticking time bombs.  This issue, even if being blown out of proportion by the internet echo chamber, is starting to speak volumes about the company.  Either do that, or start dropping the price of your tools every April 1 because customers who pay for premium expect premium. 

 

[Brice Burrell]

Untidy - I took the tour.  Yes, that was the 'Kapex repair area' in their repair room.  They have a similar area for vacs, a similar area for saws, and a similar area for drills that I saw.  Kapex looked no more 'stacked' than the other ones.  I think there were maybe 8 saws on the shelf under repair.  Similar number of vacs that I could see. When you consider how many tools Festool sells, particularly when you see their warehouse with pallet stacks that go up at least 50 feet in the air, you get the idea they are operating at significant scale in the US.

I bet Festool sells 20 vacs for every one Kapex...

 

[Michael Kellough]

Untidy - I took the tour.  Yes, that was the 'Kapex repair area' in their repair room.  They have a similar area for vacs, a similar area for saws, and a similar area for drills that I saw.  Kapex looked no more 'stacked' than the other ones.  I think there were maybe 8 saws on the shelf under repair.  Similar number of vacs that I could see. When you consider how many tools Festool sells, particularly when you see their warehouse with pallet stacks that go up at least 50 feet in the air, you get the idea they are operating at significant scale in the US.

I bet Festool sells 20 vacs for every one Kapex...

I have 2 vacs and no Kapex.

 

[live4ever]

Untidy - I took the tour.  Yes, that was the 'Kapex repair area' in their repair room.  They have a similar area for vacs, a similar area for saws, and a similar area for drills that I saw.  Kapex looked no more 'stacked' than the other ones.  I think there were maybe 8 saws on the shelf under repair.  Similar number of vacs that I could see. When you consider how many tools Festool sells, particularly when you see their warehouse with pallet stacks that go up at least 50 feet in the air, you get the idea they are operating at significant scale in the US.

I bet Festool sells 20 vacs for every one Kapex...

I have 2 vacs and no Kapex.

I have no vacs and one Kapex.  lol

 

[rizzoa13]

With a repair turn around of 2 days why are there 8 kapexi, (you like that), in the shop? It's a $1500 miter saw I'd bet my life savings they don't sell a ton of them in the grand scheme of things. So why are there 8 there at a given time?

 

[Holmz]

With a repair turn around of 2 days why are there 8 kapexi, (you like that), in the shop? It's a $1500 miter saw I'd bet my life savings they don't sell a ton of them in the grand scheme of things. So why are there 8 there at a given time?

You're putting a spotlight on the fact that there are a lot of abusers.

 

[Trevin]

I almost have the money saved for a Kapex but I think I will now keep my Dewalt for now and invest in a new bandsaw.  Now I have to decide which bandsaw I want???  Thanks Festool.... [blink]

 

[Gregor]

By the way, while I was in Lebanon I asked about those Kapexes on the shelf shown in that image.  They were not there due to motor issues.  They were there due to severe abuse by the owners.

(emphasis mine)

Could we get some information what is considered 'severe abuse' in that context?

 

[bobfog]

By the way, while I was in Lebanon I asked about those Kapexes on the shelf shown in that image.  They were not there due to motor issues.  They were there due to severe abuse by the owners.

(emphasis mine)

Could we get some information what is considered 'severe abuse' in that context?

I think Festool previously said the failures might be from repeated fast cuts in thin stock. So basically the Kapex can't be abused, nor can it do lightweight repetitive work.

Like having a car that's only happy at 35mph on sunny days.

 

[Rip Van Winkle]

I would love to have a Kapex but to replace my 40 year old ELU flip saw, which spews sawdust everywhere even when connected to a CT, with something that might let the smoke out and stop is a no brainer.

When I purchased the ELU 40 years ago it was the equivalent of many times the price of todays Kapex but except for replacing the drive belt and a plastic blade guard it just keeps on going - like a Kapex should.

The ELu flip saws, as well as some other Elu tool designs, are still being sold in some markets under the Dewalt brand. The Dewalt version of the Elu flip saw is Dewalt model DW743N. It's possible Dewalt has tweaked some areas if the saw over the years, but otherwise it should mostly be the same design. Some of the Dewalt branded Elu tools were even being made with the same molds as the original Elu tools.

I'm not sure hoe much the original Elu saws sold for when they came out. Thr current Dewalt model has a list retail price of £900 and an Amazon.uk price of £755. The Amazon price for the Festool Kapex £904 with a list retail of £1,163.

 

[justinh]

By the way, while I was in Lebanon I asked about those Kapexes on the shelf shown in that image.  They were not there due to motor issues.  They were there due to severe abuse by the owners.

(emphasis mine)

Could we get some information what is considered 'severe abuse' in that context?

I think Festool previously said the failures might be from repeated fast cuts in thin stock. So basically the Kapex can't be abused, nor can it do lightweight repetitive work.

Like having a car that's only happy at 35mph on sunny days.

Repetitive cuts in thin material describes almost every cut a trim carpenter makes.

 

[live4ever]

By the way, while I was in Lebanon I asked about those Kapexes on the shelf shown in that image.  They were not there due to motor issues.  They were there due to severe abuse by the owners.

(emphasis mine)

Could we get some information what is considered 'severe abuse' in that context?

I think Festool previously said the failures might be from repeated fast cuts in thin stock. So basically the Kapex can't be abused, nor can it do lightweight repetitive work.

Like having a car that's only happy at 35mph on sunny days.

Would be nice if we could even get an example of what lightweight repetitive cutting looks like...as far as how fast the starts and stops would have to be to cause problems.  If it's the kind of thing where you could avoid problems by knowing the saw a bit better and incorporating workflow practices (eg keeping the blade down while it stops spinning to avoid projectiles), I'm sure many Kapex owners would like to know about it.

 

[safety1st]

good point about sharing information on what might potentially avoid this issue.

wondering if anything related to this was shared/discussed during the festool connect event? especially during kapex demonstrations, etc.

 

[antss]

By the way, while I was in Lebanon I asked about those Kapexes on the shelf shown in that image.  They were not there due to motor issues.  They were there due to severe abuse by the owners.

(emphasis mine)

Could we get some information what is considered 'severe abuse' in that context?

I think Festool previously said the failures might be from repeated fast cuts in thin stock. So basically the Kapex can't be abused, nor can it do lightweight repetitive work.

Like having a car that's only happy at 35mph on sunny days.

Would be nice if we could even get an example of what lightweight repetitive cutting looks like...as far as how fast the starts and stops would have to be to cause problems.  If it's the kind of thing where you could avoid problems by knowing the saw a bit better and incorporating workflow practices (eg keeping the blade down while it stops spinning to avoid projectiles), I'm sure many Kapex owners would like to know about it.

I read a Festool reps comment a while back hinting that cutting thick "timbers" would be more suitable for the Kapex than thin repetative cuts .  I thought the same thing " what carpenter doesn't make repetative cut in thin material" ???

I've also been on job sites in the UK and Germany and the floor guys, the kitchen fitters, the tounge and groove ceiling guys , and tons of others are all making the same repetative cuts in thin material that you guys in the USA do.  I have seen no mention from Festool in any market that the Kapex is geared to "timber framers" .  I know a few (Timber framers) in the USA, and they'd laugh you off the job if you broke out a mitersaw to construct a frame - and a 10" one to boot !

Time to eat some crow and some dough, and acknowledge that the Kapex 110v in its current specification is not suited for carpentry work - which IS REPETATIVE CUTTING THIN MATERIAL in the USA.

p.s - I have three vacs and no Kapex for those trying keeping score. And, I second the comment on the plastic becoming less good. The stuff on my ct22s is much tougher than the 26. May be the same stuff, but it appears thinner , which translates to more breakage.

 

[Gregor]

I think Festool previously said the failures might be from repeated fast cuts in thin stock. So basically the Kapex can't be abused, nor can it do lightweight repetitive work.

Not that long ago I use my EB 120 to cut 2x20cm larch boards for a project (roughly 180 cuts), took less than 1/2h.
Didn't remember to smell anything odd, or that it felt strangely hot when turning off the lasers (switch is on the motor casing) after being done.

But a cut through such boards takes a moment with the machine running and the highest amperage the motor draws is while starting up (especially on the 110V version since it draws double the A of my 230V one) so when thinking about 'frequent starts with short runtimes' I come to heat accumulation in the motor since it can only vent itself effectively while running.

There dosn't seem to be reports of 230V versions burning up in numbers (or I missed them), so the higher amperage load on the 110V ones could be the reason for the reports on these (or the 230V users work with bigger stock or simply slower, both unlikely).

Other theory (without having seen the insides of dead ones, but I think we would have heard about it should it be correct, so more unlikely): the ones with the problem could have been used in a dust-laden environment (resin rich wood would help) => dust glued itself into the ventilation channels of the motor => reduced airflow => overheat of the field packet => meltdown.

Would be helpful if the ones whos Kapex died could inform us about their useage pattern in regards to frequency of starts, runtimes per cut and environment - maybe there is a visible a pattern to emerge.

I'm certain that Festool is interested in offering a solution should it be possible to pinpoint the problem, even if it would be a simple temperature sensor that prevents overheating (like in the CT-SYS).

 

[Bohdan]

If it is burning out because of overheating then a simple temperature sensor that cuts the power when it gets too hot, like in the TS55, would solve the problem.  [big grin]

But it could be that Festool had that and found that the saw stops way too often, and for too long, to be of any use as a saw so they released it without any thermal protection.  [eek]