Kapex is DEAD

[pettyconstruction]

I think it is a good question to ask,( how long and how do you use ) your kapex.
I have stood over that saw about a dozen times,money in hand ,and passed because of these threads. I know how to use a saw, but want to hear from happy owners also.
I have a old and crappy hitachi saw that is probably 20 yrs old , I use sand paper and jig saws to make up for accuracy , but I KNOW the thing will work when I need it.
I really want a kapex, but I will wait. I won't beta test a $1500 saw.
Charlie

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[rnt80]

I'll take my turn with the dead horse.  I bought mine when it was released and had to send it in three years ago.  They replaced the armature, bearings, brushes, and a few other things to the tune of $150 plus shipping. 
Regardless of whether or not the percentage of saws experiencing these problems is minuscule, the bad press Festool is getting from this can't be good. Regardless, the silence is deafening.

 

[Holmz]

[member=60286]bobfog[/member] [member=20320]rizzoa13[/member]http://www.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/product/teddy-bear/keep-calm-and-use-festool/

They may give a group buy discount for 3...

 

[jmbfestool]

I have had my Kapex for a number of years. Works well. BUT, it has been my practice to get it running to full speed before lowering it to the wood. And not rush the cut. Thick, or in my case mostly thin. I remember reading somewhere that that is the proper way to treat these motors (electronic controlled).

A while ago I had a  carpenter doing some work in my home. He was about to do some miter cuts on 2X4s and other thin stock outside on some sawhorses.I told him he could use my "miter saw" in the shop...save setting up etc. He was delighted. So the wood was set against the fence and he proceeded to grab the trigger and start the saw whilst lowering it on to the wood. The result was, to say the least, not good. The vac (connected) did not have time to come up to speed (dust all over) and the cut was very coarse. Lots of tear out. But that is how I suspect most folks in the trade use a "chop saw".

Needless to say I cut the rest of the wood.

I know people have said they baby their Kapex, but I wonder if  technique might be a factor.

BTW, after reading this thread, I also am somewhat anxious about the longevity of my expensive saw.

Cheers,

Peter

Me being a trademen and ive worked with a few but lets say my closest 3 joiners I work with I know they  all start up their chopsaw fully before a cut (Two own a kapex, Two own a dewalt).

So that makes 4 of use in totally BOOM! Thats blown your statistic out of the water 4 against 1.... Sooo from that I can now overrule your statement

"But that is how I suspect most folks in the trade use a "chop saw". 

and say I believe most folks start a chopsaw up fully.

Come on dude. The tradmen who used your kapex was clearly not a proffesional.  For one!!! I as a tradmen wouldnt use a customer tool unless I knew them really well. I wouldnt risk it plus I like using my own tools.
Secondly the way you describe the cutting results being rough and splintery he barly started the kapex up. Every proffesional knows a slow blade has a high risk at catching and even stalling.  So no maybe not every one gets a chopsaw  upto full speed but most will get upto a fairly good speed atleast but your guy sounded like the blade was turning no faster than a clocks second hand going round.

  You also must remember people dont do this just on a kapex they will do it on other brands and other brands handle it fine.

 

[Tinker]

I have no idea what is different with the kapex motors as opposed to other saw motors.  I do remember when I first was using circular saws for masonry work, including used lumber, concrete blocks, bricks, stone, real plaster and any other material you might think of a mason might work with, I went thru four or five saws withing a couple of months.  I went to the people I rented other equipment from.  I explained my problem and after a short discussion, we dragged every circular saw they had down off of the shelves.  We looked all of them over and discovered the vent from the motor was open directly on the side toward the blade.  We found the the Milwaukee 8-1/4" was  vented on the far end from the blade.  I took that one home.  It only lasted for 30 years of every kind of abuse one could think of.  Eventually, I guess the wiring gave out and it just caught fire.  Just a small difference in design made a world of difference.

I suspect there is one tiny feature in the Kapex that needs to be addressed to make a huge difference.
Tinker

 

[antss]

"Regardless, the silence is deafening."

Yep....................but then again, there isn't a problem.  Officially.
Nothing to see here - move along.

"had to send it in three years ago.  They replaced the armature, bearings, brushes, and a few other things"

I'm sorry, but a three year old saw shouldn't need bearings unless it was clearly abused  - in which case it's not under warranty and should be replaced with a new one. At the owner's expense.  If it wasn't and needed bearings , then so much for quality.  I suspect they were replaced as a matter of convenience since they were pulled to get to the armature anyway, and cost relatively little at wholesale.

" I would consider a good start would be to find a different vendor for the motor and the internal elements of the motor. "

That would seem to be the most expedient way.  Perhaps some of that aloofness they show us punters is warranted with their motor manufacturer.  My contract with the supplier would stipulate that they are taking back every single one returned to us at full cost, and after a certain # , a penalty to cover my losses would kick in.  Nothing like a little monetary incentive to get to the root of a problem. Now it's good work if you can get it to have the end user assume all the risk - which is the current situation !  And as long as all the fan boys stay quite and keep plying off the dollar bills to join the club, what real incentive does Festool have to fix the problem. 

Overheard on the C-Level:

"Besides , we're selling a crap ton of these LED lights at 350% gross margin and those new HK saws we copied from Mafell are doing well cause they can't even market water to desert nomads during a drought.  I mean what do these ungrateful tool guys want ? We fixed the Carvex after only two years and made it cordless to boot.  Hey Hans, how many of those new radio thingies do we have on hand ? Maybe we can give out a 25% off coupon for them to those guys that spend $900 to fix their Kapex saws.  Stupid M'ericans, don't even know how to properly use a miter saw and they think its supposed to be used for cutting door and window casing too !  No wonder we spend so much time talking about Kapex.

Whew, this strategy meeting has made me thirsty - Pils anyone ?

p.s - the FIRST step to solving a problem is acknowledging you HAVE a problem in the first place.  I know it's tough , especially for the engineer types and big ego crowd. 

 

[semenza]

I think it would be good when discussing topics and stating opinions, that the general (or specific) disparagement of people who buy Festool products as well as Festool employees be left out.

This topic and a few others have some posts that are laced with it.

Its uncalled for and a big turn off.

Seth

 

[glass1]

Actually, that was hilarious !  I think it's exactly what was ordered a "roast"

 

[Michael Kellough]

antss wrote;

"find a different vendor for the motor and the internal elements of the motor. "
...
My contract with the supplier would stipulate that they are taking back every single one returned to us"

And if everything was designed and specified by Festool engineers?

 

[peter halle]

Although I have a Kapex which runs fine since I bought it in 2010, I have read all the posts about the Kapex and feel for those who have had issues.

What I have come to in my mind is a question about accelerated wear testing.  It is used everywhere for everything, but if in reality the way the tests are performed don't mirror the actual usage of items in real life then the data provided is less than required.  And then the final product might not be what is needed in real life.

I hope that this gets sorted out.  This is one of those situations where a savvy marketing consultant would be screaming loudly about "...ignore the statistics.  You are killing your brand!"

Peter

 

[Stephen B]

[size=8pt]

. . . . . . . . . .    This is one of those situations where a savvy marketing consultant would be screaming loudly about "...ignore the statistics.  You are killing your brand!"

Peter

[size=13pt] [member=1674]Peter Halle[/member]

Agree Peter. Perception or reality?

None the less there is a problem.
And not just with Festool Kapex sales in North America. This must be affecting Kapex sales in Europe, Australasia etc,.  As Festool expands in these markets, sure there might be a percentage sales increase for Kapex but could this percentage have been greater?

I know this Kapex issue, together with local marketing factors, is influencing my future tool buying decisions and how I respond to woodworking friends.

I still appreciate the quality and design of most Festool products. But I would be insulted if some one now called me a 'FanBoy'. Around two years ago I might have smiled.  [smile]

 

[peter halle]

Hey,  I know from conversations with people that are hard to get to talk to that investigations are going on.  What comes out of them I can't predict.  I am no longer a glass ball interpreter.  I can't be - I personally seem to live in a snow globe that has a rinse / repeat function.  Not about health though - gratefully.

Peter

 

[Holmz]

I think it would be good when discussing topics and stating opinions, that the general (or specific) disparagement of people who buy Festool products as well as Festool employees be left out.

This topic and a few others have some posts that are laced with it.

Its uncalled for and a big turn off.

Seth

I am sure the marketing types, and psychologists use "the type of buyer" information, like it is going of fashion.

 

[peter halle]

I think it would be good when discussing topics and stating opinions, that the general (or specific) disparagement of people who buy Festool products as well as Festool employees be left out.

This topic and a few others have some posts that are laced with it.

Its uncalled for and a big turn off.

Seth

I am sure the marketing types, and psychologists use "the type of buyer" information, like it is going of fashion.

But as Seth said in regards to posting here....

Peter

 

[Holmz]

Well I am allowed to be introspective as that is only a thought crime.

A few years back, which is somewhere coming up on 7-10 I think, we saw one in Melbourne. The Haus Frau wanted to get it, and we were both excited about the idea.
But we thought we would wait till we really needed it.

I still want it to work, and I want to need it. It is like Scully and Moulder.

 

[Cheese]

This is one of those situations where a savvy marketing consultant would be screaming loudly about "...ignore the statistics.  You are killing your brand!"

Well said Peter... [thumbs up]  this Kapex meltdown issue is a pretty hot topic on the FOG, and the contributors can get very hot under the collar, myself included  [eek], because they/I'm very frustrated with Festool's response.

However, as you so adroitly pointed out, we are now approaching the area where the only really pertinent question is, Festool....do you only want to win the battle or would you prefer to win the war?

 

[antss]

antss wrote;

"find a different vendor for the motor and the internal elements of the motor. "
...
My contract with the supplier would stipulate that they are taking back every single one returned to us"

And if everything was designed and specified by Festool engineers?

That's an even easier solution . [wink]

 

[Arvid]

I have had two since the year they were released. On in my van gets used weekly as well as in my shop gets used weekly for 5-8 hours steady.
Only problem I ever had with one of them was the electrical cord connection running into the saw which I fixed myself. It was getting pinched and shorted out.
If this was a common problem I can see power being interrupted or not delivered adequately and effecting the life of the motor.
But both mine from day of release are working as they always have.

 

[ChuckS]

The result was, to say the least, not good. The vac (connected) did not have time to come up to speed (dust all over) and the cut was very coarse. Lots of tear out. But that is how I suspect most folks in the trade use a "chop saw".

Peter

I have the Kapex for two years (as well as the DF 500 for three years; but sold the CT26 and now use a $60 shop vac/dust deputy for the Festool tools). Peter nailed the issue with using mitre saws (not just for Kapex). I've seen too many chop saw users make cuts before the saws are ready (fired up). Such habits could stay even when one gets a Kapex.

Over the past two years, I've used it to cross cut materials of all kinds, soft wood, hardwood, plywood, mdf and what not. Thin, thick, repetitive. See the latest job (ash) in the pic done over the weekend -- well over 150 repetitive cross cuts in one single session. Touch wood, my Kapex is not having any issue.

I'd recommend starting cuts only after the saw is in full speed (I set the speed to that recommended for wood: 4 (?)) and after the vac is in full force, and checking your technique -- do you burn the wood with your cuts all the time?

I am not sure, too, what is meant by "abuse", but the Kapex is the only mitre saw in my shop (Dewalt sold as I thought the Kapex was the top-of-the-line mitre saw ... not so sure after reading this thread!). Is it abuse or improper technique? Festool should, as others have suggested, handle this issue with more class. A $500 - $900 repair estimate + shipping sounds like adding salt to a wound for a Kapex owner.

Chuck

 

[jmbfestool]

The result was, to say the least, not good. The vac (connected) did not have time to come up to speed (dust all over) and the cut was very coarse. Lots of tear out. But that is how I suspect most folks in the trade use a "chop saw".

Peter

I have the Kapex for two years (as well as the DF 500 for three years; but sold the CT26 and now use a $60 shop vac/dust deputy for the Festool tools). Peter nailed the issue with using mitre saws (not just for Kapex). I've seen too many chop saw users make cuts before the saws are ready (fired up). Such habits could stay even when one gets a Kapex.

Over the past two years, I've used it to cross cut materials of all kinds, soft wood, hardwood, plywood, mdf and what not. Thin, thick, repetitive. See the latest job (ash) in the pic done over the weekend -- well over 150 repetitive cross cuts in one single session. Touch wood, my Kapex is not having any issue.

I'd recommend starting cuts only after the saw is in full speed (I set the speed to that recommended for wood: 4 (?)) and after the vac is in full force, and checking your technique -- do you burn the wood with your cuts all the time?

I am not sure, too, what is meant by "abuse", but the Kapex is the only mitre saw in my shop (Dewalt sold as I thought the Kapex was the top-of-the-line mitre saw ... not so sure after reading this thread!). Is it abuse or improper technique? Festool should, as others have suggested, handle this issue with more class. A $500 - $900 repair estimate + shipping sounds like adding salt to a wound for a Kapex owner.

Chuck

I dont class 150 cuts in one session alot.  Just couple weeks ago I made 1600 cuts in one session.  Ive done that with my Makita and my kapex.
Kinda like my mates dewalt well all three of my joiner mates do it with their dewalts wedge the guard up. Although DeanSocial has become a kapex owner recently.

EDIT>  demonstration of unsafe practices.