Kapex KS 120 vs KSC 60

[COBill]

My point exactly. The numbers on the units are there only to satisfy a math formula, they have nothing to do with real world testing.

Tom

When it's 12A vs. 15A, that makes sense.

When it's a 13A load plugged into an outlet marked 3.7A, that's more than just math.

As I said, that maps nicely to the UK 240V vs 120V numbers in the European CT manual.

 

[ChuckS]

I, too, would've been seriously concerned about the wild difference between 13A and 3.7A if I had not been using my Kapex and CT mini or CT26 since day 1 (until

I sold the CT). I never paid attention to the electrical label on the CT as I assumed if the showroom used the Kapex and CT together, why couldn't I? I bet that most, if not all, of the Festool-trained staff there knew nothing about the amperage issue we've been discussing here.

 

[tjbnwi]

Better not plug anything into this one…..



Shocked I haven’t burnt up a Kapex or 2200. Surprised its lasted the 5 plus years without setting things a blaze…..

Tom

 

[ChuckS]

5 years? A local Festool vendor sales guy told me they started carrying Festool products in 2015 or so, and have used only CTs in their showroom and classes for their Festool tools including Kapex. So, we're talking about a decade there with no concerns. Vendors in the US or the EU may have longer experience.

 

[tjbnwi]

5 years? A local Festool vendor sales guy told me they started carrying Festool products in 2015 or so, and have used only CTs in their showroom and classes for their Festool tools including Kapex. So, we're talking about a decade there with no concerns. Vendors in the US or the EU may have longer experience.

According the the DOM 4-2020.

This is one of about dozen CT’s I own. Just happened to be doing trim with one of the Kapexs, figured I’d look at the receptacle cover, I did laugh a little.

My oldest CT is a 22, probably 20 years old now, still going strong even with the receptacle abuse I’ve put it through…….

Tom

 

[tjbnwi]

Anyone know why there is a Sigma symbol on the CT ID label?

Remember math has nothing to do with the receptacle rating………….



Tom

 

[ReneS]

In my experience it means "the sum of" whatever is to the right.

Not sure it applies here

 

[tjbnwi]

In my experience it means "the sum of" whatever is to the right.

Not sure it applies here

A mathematical sum (a math function). The number to the right is the sum.

I posted a picture (5ish up) of the receptacle cover on my CT 15E, it states the max connected amperage is 2 amps. The units ID plate shows the CT at 10 amps.

The two added is 12 amps, the shown Sigma number is 12 amps. This indicates that the 2 amps applied to the receptacle is nothing more than a formula applied number to meet the NEC 80% rule. 80% of 15 amps is 12 amps. This allows Festool to meet the NEC requirements so they can get the “listing” they need to sell in the U.S. In Festool’s case they’re using MET testing to U.S. standards as indicated on the label. MET is a NRTL recognized by OSHA.

The 2 amps shown on the cover (any of the CT covers) has nothing to do with the real world load capacity of the receptacle. It is nothing more than the results of a math function.

Tom

 

[woodferret]

Engineer in me says it's not a math function. NEC rules are in reference to the receptacle plug at the wall end. The CT + tool load should not exceed 12A continuously. That's it. While COBill might be a tad too conservative with saying no rated tool beyond 2A shall go into the CT's plug, the reductive 'it's just a math function' is just as annoying as F.

Honestly, we have no working rating on the receptacle circuit. The only thing we know is that there's a thermal cutoff, and that in some rare circumstances like rmhinden et al, they've managed to destroy the triac. You're being annoying/belligerent by stating everyone else is wrong because you've managed to lightly load your auto circuit.

The wise move, would be to realize that Festool will design as much overhead as they economically can into that receptacle, but their only lower hard limit is 2A or whatever performance rating they get due to improvements in the CT motor. You're not promised anything beyond that. If you hit the thermal cutoff, consider it a warning and stop the madness. If you manage to load it fast enough to bypass that cutoff, then whoops. Just give it up, please.

 

[tjbnwi]

Engineer in me says it's not a math function. NEC rules are in reference to the receptacle plug at the wall end. The CT + tool load should not exceed 12A continuously. That's it. While COBill might be a tad too conservative with saying no rated tool beyond 2A shall go into the CT's plug, the reductive 'it's just a math function' is just as annoying as F.

Honestly, we have no working rating on the receptacle circuit. The only thing we know is that there's a thermal cutoff, and that in some rare circumstances like rmhinden et al, they've managed to destroy the triac. You're being annoying/belligerent by stating everyone else is wrong because you've managed to lightly load your auto circuit.

The wise move, would be to realize that Festool will design as much overhead as they economically can into that receptacle, but their only lower hard limit is 2A or whatever performance rating they get due to improvements in the CT motor. You're not promised anything beyond that. If you hit the thermal cutoff, consider it a warning and stop the madness. If you manage to load it fast enough to bypass that cutoff, then whoops. Just give it up, please.

If it is not a math function, why the Sigma showing 12A on the CT ID plate? The definition of the Sigma is a math function.

As an engineer would you put in a symbol and number that mean nothing?

Tom

 

[woodferret]

Okay, you're really getting reductive coupled with purposefully obtuse. You've been making the case so far that the ratings are math functions with no basis in reality. Have you not been proposing so far that we should ignore these stated ratings completely because they're JUST MATH FUNCTIONS?

The numbers on the units are there only to satisfy a math formula, they have nothing to do with real world testing.

 

[peter halle]

So on one hand of this discussion we have those who are discussing, arguing about what is written on the labels. One the other hand we have those who are concerned that by using their tools in a manner that is shown by the manufacturer, and will not harm the tool / void the warranty of the tools, and now have a statement written by the manufacturer that it is safe to do so.

I know I am in the camp of feeling safe just like I was before this conversation.

Peter

 

[ChuckS]

OK. Is Festool the only brand that has labels or spec. on dust extractors that give us such confusion (if not contradiction)? And why, if so?

And is that really a sigma? If not, what is it? And what does that symbol really mean? We seem to have more questions than answers after all these posts.

As I said before, no Kapex owners need to worry about plugging their saws into a CT. Almost every Kapex user -- from heavy users to weekend warriors -- who has access to a CT does that.

 

[tjbnwi]

Okay, you're really getting reductive coupled with purposefully obtuse. You've been making the case so far that the ratings are math functions with no basis in reality. Have you not been proposing so far that we should ignore these stated ratings completely because they're JUST MATH FUNCTIONS?

The basis in reality is the 12 amps is shown as Σ 12amps. Sigma is defined as a math function, the sum of to be exact.

The owner of the CT would have to decide that for themselves. Festool has stated the CT is tested to handle the load of any of their tools that can be plugged into it. That would include the 2000 router which is 18.3 amps.

Below (CT 36) they rated the receptacle at 3.7 amps, the units amp rating is 8.3, the Σ is shown as 12 amps, 3.7 plus 8.3 =12. The label for the receptacle rating has been moved from the cover to the CT body next to the cover. It also appears Festool is showing and having the unit tested at the low end of the suction setting, on the label it shows 9.1 amps at max suction.

The engineers must be hard at work to produce both a 2 amp load system and a 3.7 amps load system.





The 5 I looked at this morning have the same ratings, my CT 22 is in Indiana, if I remember in December I’ll check its label.

Tom

 

[tjbnwi]

OK. Is Festool the only brand that has labels or spec. on dust extractors that give us such confusion (if not contradiction)? And why, if so?

And is that really a sigma? If not, what is it? And what does that symbol really mean? We seem to have more questions than answers after all these posts.

As I said before, no Kapex owners need to worry about plugging their saws into a CT. Almost every Kapex user -- from heavy users to weekend warriors -- who has access to a CT does that.

Not meant to be confusing, used to get a “listing” so they can sell the product in the U.S.

This is the Sigma symbol using a Greek keyboard on my iPad Σ, the symbol on the CT label looks the same to me.

Tom

 

[Cheese]

The 5 I looked at this morning have the same ratings, my CT 22 is in Indiana, if I remember in December I’ll check its label.

Tom

Hey Tom, I'll save you the effort to look in December...

This is what my CT 22 says.

 

[woodferret]

Your label, with the sigma 12A has a max continuous motor load of 8.3A. Hence the remaining that the receptacle is rated for 'continuous load' according to NEC is 3.7A. There are other models out there throughout the years apparently that have 9A and 10A, hence why we can get down to 2A. Yes, it's a math function, but the NEC 80% rule applies to the END rating, not that receptacle.

Like I've mentioned before, which you've conveniently ignored, the built-in receptacle is governed by the thermal load and the circuit trace's maximum current allowance. From a legal perspective Festool technically only has to build to 2A, 3.7A or whatever is listed. They have however, typically likely overbuilt enough for transient and continuous load (as governed by min suction power) but that's not going to be ever listed, and it is just assumed that they do - hence why we can run our 2200 and TS on that socket for intermittent cuts.

Arguing that it's just a math function is ignoring the realities of circuit and power design. You imply that one can plug in 15A and be fine. You're plugging in far less than that when using Festool tools - unless you impart a high load on the motor, then it will achieve it's max rating. At which point, either the circuit is thermally cut off, fried, or the house 15A circuit breaker is tripped. Even Festool correspondence advises to split the connection if one's going to be doing that sort of loading.

I'm just going to step away from this because if this last post won't educate you away from just saying 'It's a SIGMA hence it's just math" then I concede that you win the internet.

**signing off as I won't bother coming back to the site for a while as you've managed to trip my circuit breaker

 

[tjbnwi]

Your label, with the sigma 12A has a max continuous motor load of 8.3A. Hence the remaining that the receptacle is rated for 'continuous load' according to NEC is 3.7A. There are other models out there throughout the years apparently that have 9A and 10A, hence why we can get down to 2A. Yes, it's a math function, but the NEC 80% rule applies to the END rating, not that receptacle.

Like I've mentioned before, which you've conveniently ignored, the built-in receptacle is governed by the thermal load and the circuit trace's maximum current allowance. From a legal perspective Festool technically only has to build to 2A, 3.7A or whatever is listed. They have however, typically likely overbuilt enough for transient and continuous load (as governed by min suction power) but that's not going to be ever listed, and it is just assumed that they do - hence why we can run our 2200 and TS on that socket for intermittent cuts.

Arguing that it's just a math function is ignoring the realities of circuit and power design. You imply that one can plug in 15A and be fine. You're plugging in far less than that when using Festool tools - unless you impart a high load on the motor, then it will achieve it's max rating. At which point, either the circuit is thermally cut off, fried, or the house 15A circuit breaker is tripped. Even Festool correspondence advises to split the connection if one's going to be doing that sort of loading.

I'm just going to step away from this because if this last post won't educate you away from just saying 'It's a SIGMA hence it's just math" then I concede that you win the internet.

**signing off as I won't bother coming back to the site for a while as you've managed to trip my circuit breaker

As Cheese’s pictures show, the CT 22 has a rating of 1200W (10 amps) the Σ is 2400 watt’s (20 amps) 10 for the unit 10 for the receptacle. They did not apply the 80% rule (16 amps) to the CT 22 pictured. The CT 22 came with a 5-20P and a 12 gauge cord (also a dongle for with a 5-20R and a 5-15P). The CT 22 does not have a U.S. listing agency shown, it does carry a CE listing for the EU, this is a manufacture applied rating. My guess is they went to MET because the U.S. stopped recognizing the CE listing. Once they moved to MET Festool probably had to apply the 80% rule.

I’ve ignored nothing. As you state, it appears they build the circuit to handle the load of any of their tools. If they showed the actual total amperage of the CT (8.3 for the CT 36, 18.3 for a 2200 = 26.6) they could never get a “listing” with the 5-15P and the 14 gauge cord. They used math to apply a number to the onboard receptacle so the could get a listing. This entire thread has been about nothing but the number Festool applied to the receptacle. How was the number arrived at if we both know the onboard receptacle can carry a higher current?

Of course the circuit has protections built in, they’d be foolish not to. They would also be foolish not to test the circuit at FLA.

Enjoy your time away.

Tom

 

[Cheese]

For those unfamiliar with the CT 22 electrical cord, here's the dongle Tom's referring to. The CT 22 came with a 12 gauge cord that was terminated with a 5-20Plug. The dongle was also 12 gauge wire with a 5-20Receptacle on one end and a standard 5-15Plug on the other.