Kapex Turntable Issue Identification

[Rick Christopherson]

I apologize for any potential confusion this may cause, but I have chosen to not participate on this forum.

 

[mastercabman]

I was also referring to the clamp tab on the other tread.I noticed a light scrapping mark on the top of the miter scale,and i think that's what causing the problem.
If you look very closely,the miter scale moves/bends when you move the table.That could be the reason?

 

[honeydoman]

rick, thank you for your report,  also I have no imaganary problem,  it  scrapes and makes a grinding sound and you can hear it and see it on kapex #1 and #2.  this saw in no way should have this problem.

since it does.  Festool I am sure is working very had to correct issue and make the saw right, right out of the box. and until that happens #2 is going back.  I love the saw, the quiteness, lasers etc.

its a rolls royce of saws I still believe.  but again I and others should not have to mess with it at all!  in  fact my friend is on # 4 and that one is also going back,

 

[Tony M]

Rick, Very nice job on clearing that up for everyone. It's what I figured. Regarding the tightness of the turntable, I guess you could just loosen it a little if you need to have your saw, but I believe that "technically" the proper way would be to loosen more then that and come back to a estimated tightness. Perhaps a torque value if you had a wrench. 

 

[Michael Kellough]

Contrary to much speculation, the turntable bearing plates are not plastic, but are in fact metal. While there may be some unknown temperature issues, there are no humidity issues regarding the expansion or contraction of these plates. What could be humidity related, is if there is sawdust on the bearing surfaces, which could become gummy when damp.

Excellent work Rick!

No nylatron. I mentioned that early on half as joke and half wild speculation (because of the seeming humidity association) and because I just plain missed the spring washer in the parts diagram. Also, I didn't know about the crush sleeve until now.

As you say the turntable is a standard design, very similar to my two saws, which don't have dust collection and are subject to getting gummed up with dust occasionally.

 

[rnt80]

I was also referring to the clamp tab on the other tread.I noticed a light scrapping mark on the top of the miter scale,and i think that's what causing the problem.
If you look very closely,the miter scale moves/bends when you move the table.That could be the reason?

As I have said on more than one occasion now, yours may not be an actual problem, that is, unless it is actually grinding into the miter scale. These are the situations that I wanted to isolate from the actual problems of the spring plate. The clamp tab is supposed to be touching the top of the miter scale by design. The clamping tab will leave a shiny polish to the miter scale.  

On the other hand, the clamping tab should not be leaving a gouge in the miter scale. I did see a photograph in another thread that showed some gouging, but I don't know if that person also had a problem with their spring plate. A tight spring plate that is not corrected soon enough will cause damage to the miter scale, so even after the spring plate is replaced, there may still be some grinding on the miter scale unless the miter scale is also replaced.

If your miter scale is gouged (not just shiny), then I suggest returning the saw so that it can be serviced and the miter angles re-calibrated. If the scale is just shiny, and you do not have any binding in the miter turntable, then you do not have a problem with the saw. I fear that there may be many people reading these discussions and assuming that seeing a shiny line on the miter scale constitutes a problem, when it does not. I used the analogy of automotive disk brakes so this point may be clearer to some that are doubting it.

A shiny line is expected. A gouge is not.

P.S. Just in case some of the newer members here do not know me beyond my writings, I am also a certified engineer, and the statements I have made above are being made as an engineer, and I do stand behind those statements. I am not just making blind speculations when I write these discussions.

Rick, that may have been my picture that you saw.  I had Festool send me a replacement spring plate and while that helped with movement the tab/detent is still scratching the miter scale at the back.  It is bad enough that when I run my finger over the scrapped area there is a fair amount of material/burrs left on my finger.  I plan on sending the saw back to Festool.

 

[honeydoman]

rnt, that is also what mine is doing and it is going back as yours should also.

I have bought at least 15 miter saws over the last 10 years from bosch new one, dewalts(defaults) Hitatchi, makitas 10 and 12  dewalts 10 , 12, 8 1/2 and etc.  and have never had a turntable scrape.

I will wait till kapex problems have been solved, which should not be to long off, then I will try with #3

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

One more thing about the Kapex that might be worth mentioning is the Bevel Adjustment gearing. On my First Kapex, the metal gear that engaged with the metal track in the rear of the saw was slightly out of alignment, the result being that it was too far back on the track and the teeth were "ticking" along the metal track. Apparently this is a known issue for Festool, as their sales rep actually opened the store display Kapex to check for this problem. Unfortunately my first Kapex did have the problem, and the display model was slightly damaged when the rep opened the rear to look at the gearing. On the bright side, Festool shipped a third Kapex VERY quickly, I had it within a week and it works GREAT!! The miter adjustment isn't quite as smooth as my Makita, but is an otherwise superb saw. Not a PERFECT saw, but in my humble opinion it is the best saw currently on the market. For those who are having problems, has Festool provided good customer support?

 

[ccmviking]

Maybe a different lube on the turntable would make things work smoother.  Looks like it has the same white gummy stuff that is smeared on the auxiliary fences.  Can this lube be too viscous causing the crappy movement of the miter table?  It should turn smoothly and doesn't.  This isn't something that will wear in over time either.  If it wears at all it's not good.  My Dewalt moves sooo smooth and can be put where you want it with one hand. 

I posted this before....  Make a mark on your miter scale with a pencil a couple of degree's from a detent position (or just pick a number) and try to get your pointer exactly on that mark using one hand.  This is a totally reasonable expectation that you can adjust the miter with one arm.  But you can't.  Even new out of the box they won't turn right.  If the bearing surface is an industry standard, and to go further an actual good design it's either too tight or improperly lubed, isn't it?  I just want and expect this thing to feel and work like a quality machine.  How can we get the miter table to swing properly???

Chris...

 

[Jerry Work]

Hi all,

Before I read Rick's excellent analysis and photos this morning, over the weekend I also did a root cause examination of my Kapex as it also exhibited the scraping sound caused (in my case) by an overly tight spring plate never releasing when the lock lever was moved to the up (unlocked) position.  This caused galling on the under side of the index detent plate which just exacerbated the issue.  Similar to what Rick found, I located three areas where a scraping sound could occur.  1) from the spring plate lock not fully releasing the spring plate, 2) from the detent spring not clearing the upper back edge of the index detent plate and 3) from a burr on the spring plate tip rubbing on the inside edge of the table.  Festool has the official fix in the form of a new spring plate.  I had a project to finish so found a means to fix these problems while waiting for the replacement spring plate from Festool.  The root cause analysis, detailed pictures and the quick fix (a simple shim) are all shown in a short tutorial posted on my web site,http://jerrywork.com.  Go to the "Tutorials" section and scroll down.  Click on either the photo of an inverted Kapex or the text beside it to download a .pdf file that can be read on any machine.

Like Rick, I want to emphasize that this is NOT a procedure sanctioned in any way by Festool, nor is it a procedure I recommend you do, nor do I have any knowledge as to the impact this procedure may or may not have on the Festool warrantee.  Proceed only at your own risk.  Your best course of action is to contact Festool directly and follow their instructions

Jerry

 

[Michael Kellough]

Rick, please take a look at these pictures of a Kapex that had several problems.
(Picture donor shall remain anonymous.)

1. The spring plate scraped the bottom of the miter scale (and the clamp tab rode the top)

2. The detent spring rode the miter scale

3. The turntable was very hard to pivot even with the spring clamp removed and the pivot nut loosened.

Note that on this early USA delivery saw the crush sleeve is not on the post. Instead, it is in the hole in the miter table turret.

The owner was most concerned with the difficulty in moving the miter table since replacing the spring plate only reduced the scraping on the bottom of the miter scale. Even after removing the spring plate entirely the miter table still would not move as it should.

"I don't know why it won't rotate freely.  I wiped the grease off {the guard plates} and sprayed it with empire dri lube which normally works wonders and there was no change.  It didn't even help to back the nut all the way off.  Very strange."

Rick, could you explain more about the crush sleave?
This functions as a bearing as well?
What is the red coating?
Which side of the bearing is supposed to slide?

This saw was used in a hot environment. Could high heat cause affect the pivoting of the miter table on the post?

 

[Michael Kellough]

Rick, thanks for clarifying where the crush sleeve bearing should go. It does make more sense for it to be in the miter table hole since Festool has gone to the trouble of putting a nice chamfer around the top of the pivot post.

You read correctly, I said the miter table was still hard to turn with the spring plate removed and the turntable nut fully loose. However, I was paraphrasing from several emails so we'll have to wait for the owner to read this to be sure. It seems the tightness must be in the pivot rather than the guard plates since some of the photos show freshly cleaned guard plates but he didn't say anything about it being especially difficult to remove the miter table from the base or reattach it.

This particular saw was especially problematic because two of the problems produced some similar symptoms making trouble shooting much more difficult and making it seem the replacement plate fix didn't work.

The saw was replaced and the new Kapex is working well so far.

 

[honeydoman]

i went to woodcraft today and got the plate and put it on my kapex, and the scraping did not happen.  so I will see this week how it goes.  hopefully all well

 

[MiterMaster]

i went to woodcraft today and got the plate and put it on my kapex, and the scraping did not happen.  so I will see this week how it goes.  hopefully all well

Kreg, do you hear any metal-on-metal noise when adjusting the miter scale, or has your noise completely vanished?  I ask because I too changed my spring plate, but I still do hear a metal-on-metal noise when I rotate the miter scale.

The noise is not that loud, and the miter scale moves freely, it does not freeze up.  But, it is a bit tight, does not swing as smooth as say the Makita LS saw.  But, I'm not sure if this saw is supposed to be a bit tight?

With all the problems being reported, I'm trying to decide if I even have a problem?  I do hear a bit of a metal-on-metal sound when adjusting the miter scale, it's not a horrible noise, and I notice when changing miter settings, the saw is not smooth, it turns a bit tight - but again maybe this is normal operation on the Kapex?

Mike

 

[James Metcalf]

I received my spring plate today and changed it out. It has fixed my problem. You had a very hard time moving the miter scale from out of the box. Now it is firm but very smooth.It feels right There is a very slight sound, but as Rick explained.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "The only reason why I bring this topic up is because some people are hearing this sound and assuming they are experiencing the more significant scraping issue."also "A shiny line on the miter scale should not automatically be assumed to be damage, as this is normal"
With Festool I do not have to worry. If this does not turn out to be the fix I think it is, I send it back. That gives me peace about it .

 

[ccmviking]

I received my spring plate today and changed it out. It has fixed my problem. You had a very hard time moving the miter scale from out of the box. Now it is firm but very smooth.It feels right There is a very slight sound, but as Rick explained.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "The only reason why I bring this topic up is because some people are hearing this sound and assuming they are experiencing the more significant scraping issue."also "A shiny line on the miter scale should not automatically be assumed to be damage, as this is normal"
With Festool I do not have to worry. If this does not turn out to be the fix I think it is, I send it back. That gives me peace about it .

It's not "NORMAL".  It's a crappy design and half of them (my number, not scientific) scrape there an half don't.  Jerry Work was able to get his to not scape just as there are others out there that don't.  Just because the design causes a lot of them to scrape doesn't mean it normal or ok.  It should be fixed!

Chris...

 

[honeydoman]

i went to woodcraft today and got the plate and put it on my kapex, and the scraping did not happen.  so I will see this week how it goes.  hopefully all well

Kreg, do you hear any metal-on-metal noise when adjusting the miter scale, or has your noise completely vanished?  I ask because I too changed my spring plate, but I still do hear a metal-on-metal noise when I rotate the miter scale.

The noise is not that loud, and the miter scale moves freely, it does not freeze up.  But, it is a bit tight, does not swing as smooth as say the Makita LS saw.  But, I'm not sure if this saw is supposed to be a bit tight?

With all the problems being reported, I'm trying to decide if I even have a problem?  I do hear a bit of a metal-on-metal sound when adjusting the miter scale, it's not a horrible noise, and I notice when changing miter settings, the saw is not smooth, it turns a bit tight - but again maybe this is normal operation on the Kapex?

Mike

mike,

it seemed fine.  but the true test will be tomorrow, wed, I am doing a small crown job and will set the saw up in the sun and see how it is at the end of the job., and the next morning.  I agree my makita swings freely and quitely and never had a problem with the makita 10 and 12" except for the little button to fire it up would pop off and get lost some times.

the turntable is tignt because it is sitting on a bed of greese with no bearings just greese between 2 metals.  my friend says that this is a strange design and should have a bearing to roll on.

but the table should swing freeley and no noise at all except for the clicking sound on the stops.

time will tell.....

 

[Steveo48]

I received my spring plate today and changed it out. It has fixed my problem. You had a very hard time moving the miter scale from out of the box. Now it is firm but very smooth.It feels right There is a very slight sound, but as Rick explained.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         "The only reason why I bring this topic up is because some people are hearing this sound and assuming they are experiencing the more significant scraping issue."also "A shiny line on the miter scale should not automatically be assumed to be damage, as this is normal"
With Festool I do not have to worry. If this does not turn out to be the fix I think it is, I send it back. That gives me peace about it .

It's not "NORMAL".  It's a crappy design and half of them (my number, not scientific) scrape there an half don't.  Jerry Work was able to get his to not scape just as there are others out there that don't.  Just because the design causes a lot of them to scrape doesn't mean it normal or ok.  It should be fixed!

Chris...

Chris, I think many folks have just lost their mind over this product.  It was anticipated, discussed, drooled over, preorderd, members paced like expectant fathers in a 1960's waiting room..... if it doesn't work, invoke the 30 day guarantee and send it back!

We're not supposed to do this kind of warranty voiding troubleshooting and fixes, nor should we expect to.  It's not as if we couldn't do this work befor the saw came out. 

Steve

edited because my spelling stinks.

 

[willywonka]

Maybe a different lube on the turntable would make things work smoother.  Looks like it has the same white gummy stuff that is smeared on the auxiliary fences.  Can this lube be too viscous causing the crappy movement of the miter table?  It should turn smoothly and doesn't.  This isn't something that will wear in over time either.  If it wears at all it's not good.  My Dewalt moves sooo smooth and can be put where you want it with one hand. 

I posted this before....  Make a mark on your miter scale with a pencil a couple of degree's from a detent position (or just pick a number) and try to get your pointer exactly on that mark using one hand.  This is a totally reasonable expectation that you can adjust the miter with one arm.  But you can't.  Even new out of the box they won't turn right.  If the bearing surface is an industry standard, and to go further an actual good design it's either too tight or improperly lubed, isn't it?  I just want and expect this thing to feel and work like a quality machine.  How can we get the miter table to swing properly???

Chris...

You said it perfectly. I expected a perfect saw for $1300. I also notice metal flakes from the saw and I am not cutting metal. What the hell. There are a few more things that I am disappointed about but still a great saw. I bought it for the laser system and the exceptional smooth cuts and accuracy. The dust collection with CT33 is far from great. Maybe the hose size needs to be bigger - however if you buy the combo they still give you the smaller diameter hose. Bunch of crooks! As for as the TS 75... 75" is crap if you want to rip 4/8 sheets of mdf or ply so you have to buy more. The other smaller guide becomes a waste in my case! Most people are biased here and would disagree. Festool is geared to maximize profits with strategic packaging.

 

[Warrior]

the turntable is tignt because it is sitting on a bed of greese with no bearings just greese between 2 metals.  my friend says that this is a strange design and should have a bearing to roll on.

but the table should swing freeley and no noise at all except for the clicking sound on the stops.

time will tell.....

Metal on metal as a turntable bearing is the industry standard. Makita LS saws' turntables rest on steel bearing plates. The Makita saws smooth turntable operation is the one to beat and the Kapex base/ miter turntable has fallen way short. The top half of the saw makes up for the base's shortcomings though.

I would love to see the top half of the Kapex on a base as smooth and as large as the Makita 1212 design.