Knife Handle

[Sparktrician]

Picture if you can half of a middle-aged fat guy sticking out of the corner cabinet with profanity reverberating off the walls as he tries to tighten those stupid sink clamps...

I can SO relate to that!!! 

 

[Cheese]

Top-quality knives should NEVER be put in the washdisher!!!  [scared] 

[member=7493]Sparktrician[/member]
Ya I agree with you but then the wife shows up...it's a slippery slope. The first time in the dishwasher and the knives are clean and unharmed, so if all went well the first time...they'll be ok the next time too, and the next and the next and the next...until they start to look like this.

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These were originally Wusthof Trident many washings ago. And if you think these look bad, you should see how the original Wusthof's with the laminated wooden handles look.

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The knife on the far LH side for comparison, is a Wusthof tomato knife that doesn't get put into the dishwasher much.

So to keep some from of civility in the household, I just purchased my own set of Shun knives made with damascus steel and hand wash them. She's happy and I'm no longer considered to be a nag... [big grin]

 

[Sparktrician]

Top-quality knives should NEVER be put in the washdisher!!!  [scared] 

[member=7493]Sparktrician[/member]
Ya I agree with you but then the wife shows up...it's a slippery slope. The first time in the dishwasher and the knives are clean and unharmed, so if all went well the first time...they'll be ok the next time too, and the next and the next and the next...until they start to look like this.

These were originally Wusthof Trident many washings ago. And if you think these look bad, you should see how the original Wusthof's with the laminated wooden handles look.

The knife on the far LH side for comparison, is a Wusthof tomato knife that doesn't get put into the dishwasher much.

So to keep some from of civility in the household, I just purchased my own set of Shun knives made with damascus steel and hand wash them. She's happy and I'm no longer considered to be a nag... [big grin]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member]

I understand THAT drill.  I started buying Wusthof knives many moons ago.  Then along came a brief spate of being married, and along with that came the repeated (and sometimes heated) discussions regarding not putting my good cutlery in the washdisher.  Long story short, I still have the knives, albeit with some minor damage from said hard-headed lass (who, through her hard-headedness, wrecked my good dining room table top), and she's long-gone.  Somehow, I think I got the better deal in this case. 

"And yea, verily, all was well, and peace once again reigned in the land of the crusty Sparktrician..."  [big grin]

 

[mike_aa]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member]

I'm having the same problem with our knives, although they aren't yet as bad as some you show in the picture.  I thought about replacing the rivets someday since the knives are still very good.  Have you checked into a source for replacement rivets?

Thanks, Mike A.

 

[Cheese]

No I haven't [member=30413]mike_aa[/member]
It's interesting, because the stainless blades are still in excellent shape, the polymer handles aren't too bad, they just need some sanding & TLC, but the rivets that I assumed were stainless are obviously not stainless and they just kind of "melt" away.

Mike, I just had a thought, I'm going to the original Wusthof Trident store today for another issue. This store is the original importer of Trident knives from Germany into the USA. They signed the original distribution papers with Wusthof and once the knives sold well in Minnesota, they became the exclusive distributor in the entire US. I'll ask them for advice on the rivet situation and show them one of the knives.

As a side note, I've read many times, that washing the knives in a dishwasher actually etches the sharp cutting edge which then becomes duller faster. Makes sense on a microscopic level...

 

[six-point socket]

Hi Tinker,

I'd suggest either African Blackwood or Desert Ironwood, both have a very high density and make excellent (kitchen) knife handles.

For glueing, yes, please use epoxy. It's the right choice. If you can, do not use fiber spacing on the handle - although it's said to be vulcanized material, it will start to absorb liquids over time and macerate/swell.

I agree not to put good knives in the dishwasher, the heat and especially together with the chemicals (salt, rinse aid) really don't do any good. Also be careful with traditional table cutlery where blades and handles have been "married" with lead or other similar "mixtures" - chances are, they start coming apart from the heat after many, prolonged exposures.

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[Cheese]

I made a end grain butcher block out of Brazilian Cherry a year ago, I put the scraps in a bucket of water for a week and the scraps with not swell at all.  It was pretty impressive.

[member=40343]Tyler Ernsberger[/member]
I find this post interesting because I have a lot of extra Brazilian Cherry left over from a flooring job. How did you determine there was no swelling? Weight, measurements, moisture meter or ????

 

[Tyler Ernsberger]

I made a end grain butcher block out of Brazilian Cherry a year ago, I put the scraps in a bucket of water for a week and the scraps with not swell at all.  It was pretty impressive.

[member=40343]Tyler Ernsberger[/member]
I find this post interesting because I have a lot of extra Brazilian Cherry left over from a flooring job. How did you determine there was no swelling? Weight, measurements, moisture meter or ????

I did it based on measurements and spilt a piece to see if any water penetrated.  It's pretty amazing stuff. 

 

[Tyler Ernsberger]

Tinker if you would like some Brazilian Cherry I can send you some if you pay shipping.  You shouldn't need a lot if your doing knife handles. 

 

[Holmz]

From memory they used Lignum Vitea on submarines for the propeller shaft.
So I think it stands up to water pretty well. And all the high $ knives are sent with instructions not to leave them in water. So really any wood would work well unless she is chucking it in the sink.
There are tons of knife makers and videos...

 

[Tinker]

Tinker if you would like some Brazilian Cherry I can send you some if you pay shipping.  You shouldn't need a lot if your doing knife handles.

[member=8712]Richard/RMW[/member] and [member=40343]Tyler Ernsberger[/member]
Thankyou both for your offers to send me scraps (Richard > Bubinga  and Tyler > Brazilian Cherry) for my handle.  The offers are greatly appreciated.

Yesterday, I did some rummaging around in some corners of my shop.  I found two 1-1/2" x 6"x6" labeled blocks of Bubinga.  Thanks Richard for you special offer. One, I had already cut a strip off of (Don't remember where I had used).  One of these days, I would like to take a quick trip to NJ and take a look at your tiny shop (I think smaller shop than mine) and maybe swap a few stories. 

Also, two larger unlabeled blocks 2"x8"x8" of what I think is Teak. I think those I had gotten from my dad many moons ago along with several other unlabeled scraps. 

As to the Brazilian cherry, I have never worked with that, but thanks Tyler, right now, I am trying to use up as much of my scrap heap as possible.  By heap, I mean nearly every horizontal surface, including too much of my dwindling floor space.  As I get more and more into my shop reorganization, I am finding more goodies I had forgotten about, or never knew I had. I do appreciate your offer, but i really, at this point, do not need (not that I am not tempted by your offer) another small scrap.

For now, I am leaning towards using one of the Bubinga scraps t make the handle.  I think I had gotten them from Woodcraft several years ago when there was a sale.  So thanks to my friends at Norwalk WoodWorker's Club.
Tinker

 

[rmwarren]

Tinker if you would like some Brazilian Cherry I can send you some if you pay shipping.  You shouldn't need a lot if your doing knife handles.

[member=8712]Richard/RMW[/member] and [member=40343]Tyler Ernsberger[/member]
Thankyou both for your offers to send me scraps (Richard > Bubinga  and Tyler > Brazilian Cherry) for my handle.  The offers are greatly appreciated.

Yesterday, I did some rummaging around in some corners of my shop.  I found two 1-1/2" x 6"x6" labeled blocks of Bubinga.  Thanks Richard for you special offer. One, I had already cut a strip off of (Don't remember where I had used).  One of these days, I would like to take a quick trip to NJ and take a look at your tiny shop (I think smaller shop than mine) and maybe swap a few stories. 

Also, two larger unlabeled blocks 2"x8"x8" of what I think is Teak. I think those I had gotten from my dad many moons ago along with several other unlabeled scraps. 

As to the Brazilian cherry, I have never worked with that, but thanks Tyler, right now, I am trying to use up as much of my scrap heap as possible.  By heap, I mean nearly every horizontal surface, including too much of my dwindling floor space.  As I get more and more into my shop reorganization, I am finding more goodies I had forgotten about, or never knew I had. I do appreciate your offer, but i really, at this point, do not need (not that I am not tempted by your offer) another small scrap.

For now, I am leaning towards using one of the Bubinga scraps t make the handle.  I think I had gotten them from Woodcraft several years ago when there was a sale.  So thanks to my friends at Norwalk WoodWorker's Club.
Tinker

[member=550]Tinker[/member] come on down anytime, it'd be a hoot.

PS - it's gonna take more then a couple knives to make a dent in that scrap pile... [poke]

RMW

 

[Cheese]

[member=30413]mike_aa[/member]
I visited the Trident store and talked with them about the rivets. I was told those are chrome covers placed over the rivets and that's the reason they just melt away when exposed to the dish washer detergents.

He looked at mine and said they were pretty bad but he's seen a few a little worse, but the rivets never go completely away and they don't get much worse than mine. He also said that Trident has recently changed its policy from dishwasher safe to NOT dishwasher safe.

I've attached a couple of pictures that may be of interest to some. The first one is the original 24" whet stone they imported from Germany when they signed the original distributor agreement. They've used it for years along with a leather strop and have sharpened hundreds of thousands of knives on it, but the process was slow and prone to operator error.

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The second photo is the set-up they implemented 2 years ago. On the bottom of the stack is a 2" abrasive cloth belt in 80 grit. He said it removes metal so fast that the blade can't burn. Next on the stack is 2nd row, far right, a 3M XL deburring wheel on a Jet grinder. 3rd step and top row far left, a cotton buff with green buffing compound they import from Germany.

A typical day is 600-800 knives to sharpen. As the holiday season approaches, that number can go up to 1200 per day.

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[Tinker]

When i got the kit @ WoodCraft, the guy who helped me told me the rivets sometimes fail and he said he just puts them together using epoxy.  I wonder how durable that would be.

We have some Wustoff steak knives with some kind of plastic handles held together with three rivets.  Because they get put into the dishwasher (not by me), the plastic it breaking at the rivet closest to the blad.  the knife i just picked up and will put a wood handle around the shank has three rivet holes.  The center hole is round and, I assume, is the same diameter as the three rivets. he closest to the blade and the furthest from the blade are elongated as we would do when doing breadboard with wood work.  I am wondering if Wustoff elongated the rive holes and that is why the breakage is occurring from the heat of dishwasher.  The rivets of the Wustoff knives are seemingly in like new condition, but just the plastic (very hard material) is breaking at the rivet as mentioned. I have been debating whether to use the rivets, or just use the epoxy as the man @ Woodcraft advised. 

I am leaning towards using Bubinga of which I have enough to do quite a few knife handles.  i just hope I have sharp enough tools to shape the wood.  I have some very good wood rasps the will probably do most of the work. 

The blade is a Zhen Chef's knife that supposedly is already sharpened.  I have never bough a Japanese knife, and won't take it out of the box until i am ready to make the handle.  i will find out then if it needs sharpening before I pass it on to my daughter.

BTW:  every time we visit her, she gives me the job of sharpening her cutlery whatever needs it.  i have left a set of DMT's and fine stones with her so I don't have to transport myy equipment.
Tinker
Tinker

 

[rmwarren]

When i got the kit @ WoodCraft, the guy who helped me told me the rivets sometimes fail and he said he just puts them together using epoxy.  I wonder how durable that would be.

We have some Wustoff steak knives with some kind of plastic handles held together with three rivets.  Because they get put into the dishwasher (not by me), the plastic it breaking at the rivet closest to the blad.  the knife i just picked up and will put a wood handle around the shank has three rivet holes.  The center hole is round and, I assume, is the same diameter as the three rivets. he closest to the blade and the furthest from the blade are elongated as we would do when doing breadboard with wood work.  I am wondering if Wustoff elongated the rive holes and that is why the breakage is occurring from the heat of dishwasher.  The rivets of the Wustoff knives are seemingly in like new condition, but just the plastic (very hard material) is breaking at the rivet as mentioned. I have been debating whether to use the rivets, or just use the epoxy as the man @ Woodcraft advised. 

I am leaning towards using Bubinga of which I have enough to do quite a few knife handles.  i just hope I have sharp enough tools to shape the wood.  I have some very good wood rasps the will probably do most of the work. 

The blade is a Zhen Chef's knife that supposedly is already sharpened.  I have never bough a Japanese knife, and won't take it out of the box until i am ready to make the handle.  i will find out then if it needs sharpening before I pass it on to my daughter.

BTW:  every time we visit her, she gives me the job of sharpening her cutlery whatever needs it.  i have left a set of DMT's and fine stones with her so I don't have to transport myy equipment.
Tinker
Tinker

[member=550]Tinker[/member] - Wayne, FWIW I used both epoxy and rivets on the 2 knives I have done (both Bubinga BTW) and both have held up great, sans spending any time in the DW.

Also, beware inhaling Bubinga dust, after a few days of carelessness whilst shaping my kitchen cabinet pulls from it I got the most wicked respiratory infection imaginable, took me nearly 2 weeks to recover. Most of my shaping was done w/ disk sander and RO90, never again w/o a good mask.

RMW

 

[Cheese]

I am wondering if Wustoff elongated the rivet holes and that is why the breakage is occurring from the heat of dishwasher.  The rivets of the Wustoff knives are seemingly in like new condition, but just the plastic (very hard material) is breaking at the rivet as mentioned.

[member=550]Tinker[/member]
If you check out the 2nd picture I posted on the second grinder setup, off to the left is a display board on how Trident fashions their knives. You'll notice that the rivet holes in the blade are elongated and that probably goes back to when they were fitting laminated wooden handles to their knives. They changed over to a polymer material about 25-30 years ago.

As far as epoxy goes, I contacted Gerber a number of years ago to find out how they attached the handle to their dive/survival knife. They said it was epoxied in-place.

 

[Tinker]

Cheese Quote >>>As far as epoxy goes, I contacted Gerber a number of years ago to find out how they attached the handle to their dive/survival knife. They said it was epoxied in-place.

 

[Cheese]

[member=550]Tinker[/member]
I'm attaching a couple of photos. I don't know their process and I'm sure they won't openly share it but there must be some kind of pockets in the tang of the blade and also some pockets in the handle so that when the epoxy hardens the tang will be "keyed" to the handle.

As an aside, the reason I contacted Gerber was because I was worried that days of underwater ocean exposure would compromise the bond of the handle & the tang...rest assured, it did not.

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No rivets or other visible signs of attachment.

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The shiny material in between the blade and the hilt is what I assume to be the oozing of epoxy from within the handle recess.

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Another view from the opposite side of the blade.

 

[Cheese]

Tinker,
I forgot to add, you questioned the handle material used by Gerber, it is an aluminum alloy. So while aluminum and paint are not the best of friends, aluminum and epoxy seem to get along well together.

 

[rmwarren]

[member=550]Tinker[/member]
I'm attaching a couple of photos. I don't know their process and I'm sure they won't openly share it but there must be some kind of pockets in the tang of the blade and also some pockets in the handle so that when the epoxy hardens the tang will be "keyed" to the handle.

As an aside, the reason I contacted Gerber was because I was worried that days of underwater ocean exposure would compromise the bond of the handle & the tang...rest assured, it did not.

No rivets or other visible signs of attachment.

The shiny material in between the blade and the hilt is what I assume to be the oozing of epoxy from within the handle recess.

Another view from the opposite side of the blade.

[member=44099]Cheese[/member] - I think in Wayne's case he is looking to attach 2 separate scales to either side of the tang (a full tang), from the looks of you photos the tang is totally enclosed in the handle on that knife (a push tang). Different set of circumstances.

I think in the case of the full tang the epoxy does the lions share of the work and the rivets are there to support it. Belt & suspenders. I have an old pocket knife that was epoxy only, lost a scale 15 years ago and still have not gotten around to replacing it.

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RMW