Knife Handle

[Cheese]

I think in the case of the full tang the epoxy does the lions share of the work and the rivets are there to support it. Belt & suspenders. I have an old pocket knife that was epoxy only, lost a scale 15 years ago and still have not gotten around to replacing it.

Richard, thanks for the feedback...you're absolutely correct. It's tough to adhere smooth surfaces to other smooth surfaces.

For the condition you describe, if this were my project, I'd entertain placing a fairly coarse cross hatch pattern on the knife tang along with a few through holes in the tang and also some internal pockets on the handle blank so that the epoxy has an object to "key" around and truly bond the tang to the handle. 

But that only takes care of 1/2 of the problem, for the other half of the handle, I'd open up some of the areas on the tang where it is now filled with epoxy and drill 2 or 3 holes thru the handle half, making sure there is a channel on the bottom side that links the holes in the handle with the open areas in the epoxy. Pump it full of epoxy, install 3 wooden plugs and sand and finish the handle.

The 3 plugs could be quite interesting from a visual standpoint if they were of a different wood. I'd probably substitute aluminum plugs instead for additional interest.

 

[Tinker]

Richard is right about my knife having two scales.  There are 3 small rivets about 5/32" diameter with there holes in the tang to match.  The center hole appears to be a tight fit, but the other two holes at each end to the tang are elongated to allow for expansion, probably of the metal.  The guy at WoodCraft tod me to forget about using the rivets; but to just use Epoxy.

From what [member=8712]Richard/RMW[/member] and @ Cheese are telling me, I am understanding (as I had suspected and the reason for my question) the Epoxy does not adhere to the metal unless there are holes or deep scratches for the Epoxy to key into. 

My first thought as I was driving home with my new purchase was to try to drill larger holes into the tang and use wood dowels.  I have worked with rivets way back in the mid (1946 or 1947 back when I was only 38) and I still have a wall hanging little box that was held together with rivets.  I can think of too many problems with using wood dowels, but I think metal rivets (those supplied look awfully small) would be fine.

The only two times i have worked with epoxy was way back in its earliest development when i was building a boat.  There were three friends (they were all over thirty even way back then)who had been working on the development. They supplied me with the two liquids and the fiberglass fabric.  The first day i put the boat in the water, i had crash at nearly full speed into a very solid wooden deck and i went flying about 20 0r 30 feet across the deck and my boat bounced back away from the dock about 15 or 20 feet towards the way it had come.  No damage to anything but my ego.  That epoxy was applied with a brush I think (I don't recall exactly except it was in the mid summer and we had to do the application in the evening and inside my mom's garage where it was cooler.  About three coats of epoxy.

The second time was in a dairy and we used trowels to apply.  Today, I think we would be pouring the epoxy and allowing it to self level somehow. By the time i had spent an entire afternoon and nearly into daylite the next morning, i was walking like i was drunk from the fumes.  I had to crawl on my belly to spread the material under dairy machinery and sinks.  I did not ever want anything to do with epoxy after that episode.

The dairy closed down a few years (maybe 3 years) after my experience, but the boat was still going strong some 40 years later when I gave it to our son-in-law who turned out to not be so great.  [mad]. 

Back to the knife handle.  Should I try to score the tang AND the wood before I apply the epoxy.    The tang looks pretty smooth, but not shiny as the cutting end of the piece of steel. I have several metal files to scratch he metal surface, but they are fine toothed.  I have a wider range of wood rasps to really scratch up the inside faces of the wood.  Should i try drilling the holes in the tang where the rivets are meant to go to allow more voluum of epoxy around the rivets?

The battery in my camera is dead and i have not gotten around to charging it.  The camera is buried under a pile of grass seed and fertilizer in the frontseat of my truck.  when i finish using the seed and fertilizer, i all try to take pics of the knife, and hopefully some of the probs along the way.

TIA
Tinker

 

[Tinker]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member] Why did you have that diver knife?  did you have to fish one of your bikes out of one of those ponds in Minnesota? or out of Lake Superior?  [poke]
Tinker

 

[Holmz]

When I did a saw way back when, I used some aluminum and tapped a hole into it... One for each side.
The I screwed them onto a short piece of threaded rod and wound them onto a recessed forstner type of hole. Once they were wrenched in, I cut the extra metal and made it flush with the wood. It looked like a 1/2" rivit but it was two blind nuts.

 

[rmwarren]

[member=550]Tinker[/member] - Wayne, a couple more photos then I will shut up. These are my then-15 year old nephew's first uncle Richard experience in the shed/shop, with the Woodcraft kit we gave him for Christmas the prior winter. Bubinga & brass pins/epoxy rather than rivets.

[attachthumb=1]

[attachthumb=2]

I always have trouble recessing the rivet head cleanly, which can be seen on one the the earlier photos where there is a divot next to the rivet (hey, it rhymes!). I think the pins are cleaner and easier, and I like the look of the brass.

That's my vote...  [poke]

RMW

 

[rmwarren]

Back to the knife handle.  Should I try to score the tang AND the wood before I apply the epoxy.    The tang looks pretty smooth, but not shiny as the cutting end of the piece of steel. I have several metal files to scratch he metal surface, but they are fine toothed.  I have a wider range of wood rasps to really scratch up the inside faces of the wood.  Should i try drilling the holes in the tang where the rivets are meant to go to allow more voluum of epoxy around the rivets?

Okay, one more comment... I favor just applying the epoxy without worrying about scoring anything, use pins/rivets, and threaten tears/tantrum if anyone puts it into the DW. Used the same Devcon 5-Minute stuff for both knives and no problems yet.

NOW I will quiet down.

RMW

 

[Cheese]

Hey Tinker,
I assumed that you were trying to adhere a handle onto a large chefs knife while using your own custom designed handle. If so, there is a lot of real estate on the tang and thickness on the handle halves to incorporate elements that will allow the tang and handle to properly bond to one another.

Think of the steel blade as being the equivalent of a scratch coat in plaster, epoxy = brown coat and handle = finish coat. In plastering, the scratch coat is key and all other things literally, hang off of it.

I'm sure you have a 8-10" piece of 2" metal flat hanging around. Why not try texturing the steel and then texturing 2 pieces of hardwood and epoxying the bunch together, letting it cure and then giving it the hammer test. Could be very interesting. [big grin]

It doesn't cost much and the results will probably either shut down the epoxy route or open it up for further evaluation.

Texturing could be done with a belt sander, right angle grinder, 36-60 grit wheel on a bench grinder, an .040" cut-off wheel in a right angle grinder, lots of options available.

Try searching the internet. I Googled "fastening knife handles" and came upon this thread. Check out the 5th posting down.
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/hardware-fasteners/202676-fasteners-knife-handle.html#b

Maybe one of the knife guild forums on the internet could provide some guidance.

It's already been determined to not wash the knife in the dishwasher, so it only has to sustain normal use and the ocassional drop on  the floor. Maybe I'm just overthinking the task...wouldn't be the first time. [unsure]

As far as the diver knife goes, I'm also/was a DIY photographer and DIY sailor. I used to spend 3 weeks every spring, with 3-4 buddies in the BVI taking underwater photos, sailing, listening to the steel drums, sleeping on the beach and drinking Pussers... [thumbs up]

I've sailed on Lake Superior many times but it's just not the same as the BVI. [sad] [crying] [sad]

 

[Tinker]

Back to the knife handle.  Should I try to score the tang AND the wood before I apply the epoxy.    The tang looks pretty smooth, but not shiny as the cutting end of the piece of steel. I have several metal files to scratch he metal surface, but they are fine toothed.  I have a wider range of wood rasps to really scratch up the inside faces of the wood.  Should i try drilling the holes in the tang where the rivets are meant to go to allow more voluum of epoxy around the rivets?

Okay, one more comment... I favor just applying the epoxy without worrying about scoring anything, use pins/rivets, and threaten tears/tantrum if anyone puts it into the DW. Used the same Devcon 5-Minute stuff for both knives and no problems yet.

NOW I will quiet down.

RMW

[member=8712]Richard/RMW[/member]  You can quiet down, but don't shut down.  You are one who has been very educational with your replies.  Your posts are always appreciated.

I have read thru all of the replies to this thread. All have been educational.  I have also been researching on YT.  this morning, i finished my bookkeeping earlier than usual and had a little more time for researching.  One young codger (looks as if he has been 39 almost as long as I) made an observation that explains your thought about not worrying about scoring any of the parts.  He says the epoxy probably won't stick to anything as far as holding together (not a direct quote, but the idea is accurate).  the epoxy just coats the tang to prevent moisture contact.  I think that pretty much covers my concerns about holding together.

He (BowieMaker) also showed several types of rivets, pins, screws and bolts to use.

I have some scraps of brass rod hidden away somewhere in my piles of debris  [unsure] that I will try to find (some more of my inheritance from my dad) and will practice riveting on some wood scraps. I don't know if they are hard or soft.  My experience with riveting has only been holding pieces of copper together.  That was way back in the days when I was a bit more carefree and did not worry about success or failure.  That was before i had gotten to year 38 even.  I am sure that it will be more difficult to rivet thru wood, even very hard wood, than with any metal.  I am sure the wood will want to push away from the body of the rivet, or the rivet will want to bend, and make it difficult to get a nice rounded (but flat) head.   

Today I will be using up some of the seed and fertilizer that is burying my camera on the front seat of my truck.  hopefully, i will have time to send some pics of fore and aft ([member=44099]Cheese[/member]  Does that terminology meet with your nautical approval?  [wink]) of my project.

Tinker

 

[rmwarren]

[member=550]Tinker[/member] - Wayne, are you familiar with the 2 part rivets commonly used in knives? Your comments make me think perhaps not, apologies if I misread them, but you seem to be describing bucked rivets.

The rivets I used on the paring knife are male/female, when driven together the male expands the female ferrule and forms a friction fit. No issues with them moving around, etc. Here's an example:

http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/index.php?cPath=52_36_621

You can whack 'em with a hammer/anvil or for the more refined use an arbor press. for some reason I prefer the whacking approach. [scratch chin]

RMW 

 

[Tinker]

[member=550]Tinker[/member] - Wayne, are you familiar with the 2 part rivets commonly used in knives? Your comments make me think perhaps not, apologies if I misread them, but you seem to be describing bucked rivets.

The rivets I used on the paring knife are male/female, when driven together the male expands the female ferrule and forms a friction fit. No issues with them moving around, etc. Here's an example:

http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/index.php?cPath=52_36_621

You can whack 'em with a hammer/anvil or for the more refined use an arbor press. for some reason I prefer the whacking approach. [scratch chin]

RMW

[member=8712]Richard/RMW[/member]  You are right.  All I know (or thought I know) are hot rivets and cold rivets.  Beyond that, I only know you don't want to use hardened anything for rivets.  When i did my riveting in HS, I used hammer and a hard metal block, I think.  I had taken a quick look at the still wrapped and sealed rivets that came with the knife.  It looked like more than three, but with such a quick look, I just thought an extra one or two.  From what you just told me, I am suspecting the two part rivets you are describing.  I will check later when i get back into my shop.

BTW:  I knew you were lying when you said your were not going to comment any more  [dead horse]

Tinker

 

[rmwarren]

BTW:  I knew you were lying when you said your were not going to comment any more  [dead horse]

Tinker

Touche!  [doh]

RMW