Seems like they've pulled it from the US market anyway.
Kreg Rebel Pocket Hole jig.... Domino patent violations?
- Thread starter fritter63
- Start date
The problem with pocket screws is, well, SCREWS. They're great for "static" joints with no forces on them (cabinet face frames). Maybe cabinet carcases. Otherwise.... FUHGETABOUTIT.
luvmytoolz
Member
@4nthony A Tragicomedy in 6 Acts! Brilliant stuff!
I made the mistake of buying a Zeta clone before getting the genuine one, and I have to say the experience of using it really sucked.
It sort of hit most of the function points but in a very clunky and awkward way.
But using it did show me how useful the real one would be though.
I made the mistake of buying a Zeta clone before getting the genuine one, and I have to say the experience of using it really sucked.
It sort of hit most of the function points but in a very clunky and awkward way.
But using it did show me how useful the real one would be though.
smorgasbord
Member
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2022
- Messages
- 1,401
A part of me still winces every time I use my decades-old Lamello Top-20, even though I still love the height adjustability feature.
Buy once, cry once, wince forever?
Buy once, cry once, wince forever?
onocoffee
Member
Dr. P. Venkman
Member
Honestly, it’s a very cool tool for those who do a bunch of pocket holes - especially on large pieces that are hard to bring to the jig.
I’m no expert, but I have a hard time seeing the market for Kreg’s cordless platform. I’m not sure if they’re competing more with Milwaukee and DeWalt or Ryobi and Kobalt - I would assume the higher end Milwaukee/DeWalt. And I don’t see Milwaukee users adding a Kreg drill or trim router, but who knows?
I could absolutely see a heavy pocket hole user adding this tool to their Milwaukee setup, even if it means adding a new battery.
The “Domino killer” stuff is dumb. I don’t know how much of a hand Kreg has in promoting that narrative, but I don’t think it helps the product. Pocket holes are very popular - call it “the machine that will change pocket holes forever,” or whatever SEO phrase doesn’t sound stupid.
I’m no expert, but I have a hard time seeing the market for Kreg’s cordless platform. I’m not sure if they’re competing more with Milwaukee and DeWalt or Ryobi and Kobalt - I would assume the higher end Milwaukee/DeWalt. And I don’t see Milwaukee users adding a Kreg drill or trim router, but who knows?
I could absolutely see a heavy pocket hole user adding this tool to their Milwaukee setup, even if it means adding a new battery.
The “Domino killer” stuff is dumb. I don’t know how much of a hand Kreg has in promoting that narrative, but I don’t think it helps the product. Pocket holes are very popular - call it “the machine that will change pocket holes forever,” or whatever SEO phrase doesn’t sound stupid.
smorgasbord
Member
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2022
- Messages
- 1,401
Kreg and Milescraft are in this affordable DIY woodworker category. Not like a DeWalt/Milwaukee/Makita. With the new battery platform, I think they're directly going after Ryobi, which seems to be Home Depot as the only retailer; Kobalt is Lowe's if I'm not mistaken. Ryobi/Kobalt seem more about DIYers (home remodel/repair) than woodworking per se (furniture type things), so I think there might be some market carve-out.
What will be interesting to see is how any power tool for DIYers can compete with a $20-$30 jig that needs a drill, which everyone already has. I mean, one has to do a lot of pocket hole joinery to make that thing worth it, and I just don't see how one doesn't move on to better joinery methods after doing a few projects with pocket holes.
What will be interesting to see is how any power tool for DIYers can compete with a $20-$30 jig that needs a drill, which everyone already has. I mean, one has to do a lot of pocket hole joinery to make that thing worth it, and I just don't see how one doesn't move on to better joinery methods after doing a few projects with pocket holes.
Packard
Member
My first purchase seems to have pre-dated Dominoes (or at least my knowledge of their existence): A pricy DeWalt tenon cutting jig for the table saw and a mortising machine (also DeWalt). Low ceiling height limits the length of pieces to cut tenons on. Slow and tedious unless I am making many identical cuts.I asked ChatGPT to give me a summary of inexpensive Domino-Killers and to rank costs. I think most people that are averse to buying a Domino end up spending almost as much on alternatives, then end up buying the Domino anway.
-----------------------
Great question — this is exactly the trap that a lot of us fall into: “I’ll try the cheaper options first before I commit to a Domino” … and then you look back and realize you’ve already spent Domino money on half-measures.
Let’s run the math. I’ll use rough new-retail USD prices (as of 2025).
The Benchmark
- Festool Domino DF 500 set: ≈ $1,200 (with systainer, assortment of cutters & tenons).
- (The Domino XL DF 700 is closer to $1,600–1,800, but we’ll benchmark the DF 500 since that’s the more “general use” machine.)
The Experiment Path (Low-End → Upward)
- Milescraft JointMate (budget dowel jig)
- Price: ≈ $20
- Total so far: $20
- Rockler Beadlock Pro
- Price: ≈ $60–80
- Total so far: ~$100
- Jessem Dowelling Jig
- Price: ≈ $250
- Total so far: ~$350
- Dowelmax Jig
- Price: ≈ $400–500
- Total so far: ~$800
- Triton DuoDoweler (TDJ600)
- Price: ≈ $300–350
- Total so far: ~$1,100
At this point, you’ve already spent Domino money and still don’t have a Domino.
- (Optional escalation) Lamello Zeta P2
- Price: ≈ $1,600–1,800
- Now you’re deep in premium joinery land, well past Domino territory.
Cost vs Tool Count
- By the time you’ve worked through 5 tools (JointMate → Beadlock → Jessem → Dowelmax → Triton), you’ll have spent about $1,100–1,200.
- That’s essentially the price of a brand-new Festool Domino DF 500.
And if you get tempted by the Lamello… you’ll blow past even the Domino XL budget.
Takeaway
- Experimenting “bottom-up”: You’d likely acquire 5 tools and spend about the same as a Domino.
- What you actually get: A drawer full of half-redundant jigs that each do 70% of the job, slower.
- What you don’t get: The speed, efficiency, and resale value of a Domino.
Do you want me to make a step-by-step “Domino Journey” timeline — like how a woodworker would rationalize each purchase before finally giving in to the Domino? (It’s a pretty funny/tragic arc).
Yes.
Perfect— here’s the “Domino Journey” timeline, the path many woodworkers take before admitting defeat and buying the Festool:
Act I — The Optimist ($20)
- Purchase: Milescraft JointMate
- Rationale: “I don’t need to spend $1,200. This little jig will do everything the Domino does!”
- Reality: Holes wander, alignment’s tricky, joints creak when stressed.
- Outcome: $20 poorer, but still convinced the right cheap tool exists.
Act II — The Tinkerer ($80)
- Purchase: Rockler Beadlock Pro
- Rationale: “This is literally a floating-tenon system! Same principle as Domino. Nailed it.”
- Reality: Clunky jig, awkward drilling, chunky “beadlock” tenons look like Lincoln Logs.
- Outcome: A drawer full of oddly ribbed blocks and the faint sense you’re being mocked.
Act III — The Serious Hobbyist ($250)
- Purchase: Jessem Dowelling Jig
- Rationale: “I’ll just invest in quality. Dowels are strong — stronger than Dominos even! Who needs a fancy plunge cutter?”
- Reality: Gorgeous jig, but setup is slow, drilling endless holes is tedious, and you start dreaming of a green machine.
- Outcome: Your work is precise… but you envy every Domino demo on YouTube.
Act IV — The Engineer ($450)
- Purchase: Dowelmax
- Rationale: “Okay, THIS is the ultimate jig. People say it’s stronger than a Domino. I’ve beaten the system!”
- Reality: Yes, joints are rock-solid. But it takes forever to clamp, drill, unclamp, repeat. You look at your project pile and sigh.
- Outcome: You’ve achieved strength, not speed. The Domino shadow grows darker.
Act V — The Compromiser ($350)
- Purchase: Triton DuoDoweler
- Rationale: “Fine. I’ll buy a machine. This will be basically a Domino.”
- Reality: It’s fast… but fiddly, less precise, plastic-heavy. You keep thinking, “This feels like the Harbor Freight version of what I really want.”
- Outcome: By now, you’ve spent Domino money on tools you barely use.
Act VI — The Surrender ($1,200)
- Purchase: Festool Domino DF 500
- Rationale: “…Fine. Just shut up and take my money.”
- Reality: You make 6 perfect joints in 60 seconds. You laugh, you cry, you wonder why you didn’t do this 3 years ago.
- Outcome: A new era of woodworking speed and smugness begins. You look at your drawer of jigs like old relationships you’ve outgrown.
- Tools acquired: ~5
- Money spent: ≈ $1,100
- Time wasted: Countless hours fiddling with jigs
- Emotional cost: Resentment + regret
Would you like me to also break down what happens if, instead of the cheap-to-expensive route, someone jumps straight to the Lamello Zeta P2 path — the “bougie alternative timeline”?
Porter-Cable biscuit joiner. Fast. Easy. I never reached the point where I was 100% confident on the strength of the joints. Even small biscuits were too big for many miter joints. Mostly use it to attach face frames to cabinet boxes. (Where pocket screws would have been visible.)
The Beadlock works fine. Very portable. Low cost. Slow. Tedious. But strong joints.
Self-centering dowel jig. Faster than Beadlock about as strong. Easy to use. Cheap fasteners.
Finally, on a lark I built an entire medicine cabinet using butt joints, glue and finishing nails (18 ga., from a nail gun). I did this after struggling with a demo of cabinets in my 1953-built bathroom. It was site-built with butt joints only and no glue. It was surprisingly difficult to dismantle. The finished medicine cabinet (painted) exceeded my expectations. It is wall-mounted (adds structure) but in place for about 8 years and shows no signs of distress. I probably won’t build another cabinet using butt joints and nails, but I have new-found respect for that construction.
onocoffee
Member
They haven't finished setting up the display, but the price points seem reasonable. They are offering a battery and charger for $129 (can't remember the amp hour). Got to hold the drill and impact driver, they're okay - probably more on par (by tactile feel) with Kobalt or Craftsman than DeWalt or Festool.
And I would agree that Kreg's focus is on the DIYer. But that said, at this stage, I wonder how many people, other than the true newbie buying their tools for the first go round, will adopt the Kreg cordless. (though I think Kreg Kordless was a missed opportunity)?
How many of us here have spent a bit of money on a tool that we as yet have not used or used at a frequency that would not be commensurate with how much we paid!
And I would agree that Kreg's focus is on the DIYer. But that said, at this stage, I wonder how many people, other than the true newbie buying their tools for the first go round, will adopt the Kreg cordless. (though I think Kreg Kordless was a missed opportunity)?
But do they really?
How many of us here have spent a bit of money on a tool that we as yet have not used or used at a frequency that would not be commensurate with how much we paid!
The price of something and its usage absolutely have no direct (or linear?) relationship. Just ask my wife. Her most jewelery set is hardly worn compared to what she is wearing 24/7.They haven't finished setting up the display, but the price points seem reasonable. They are offering a battery and charger for $129 (can't remember the amp hour). Got to hold the drill and impact driver, they're okay - probably more on par (by tactile feel) with Kobalt or Craftsman than DeWalt or Festool.
And I would agree that Kreg's focus is on the DIYer. But that said, at this stage, I wonder how many people, other than the true newbie buying their tools for the first go round, will adopt the Kreg cordless. (though I think Kreg Kordless was a missed opportunity)?
But do they really?
LOLIt begs the question of whether their legal counsels will use AI to help them in their case!That Chat GPT is kind of cool.Almost like discussing something with a real person. Now I understand why the parents of the 16 year old filed a lawsuit.
4nthony
Member
I added a
reaction to the above post but then looked up information about ChatGPT lawsuits. If @Cheese is referencing the same one I discovered, it's definitely not something I should be laughing about. Heartbreaking, actually.
Cheese
Member
Ya that's the one I was talking about...that's the reason I thought your ChatGPT example was so interesting as it just rolls out language & expressions as any human would. Unfortunately, Adam got caught in the web and paid the ultimate price.I added a
Sheesh, you'd imagine the inventors would have placed some guard rails around ChatGPT...what were they thinking?
Packard
Member
What they were thinking was what ChatGPT was able to think of at the time. But ChatGPT continued to learn and think in directions that the inventors could not envision. That is the “thin ice” that A.I. represents. They cannot see or envision where or how the ice will be thin, but when it is, disaster can occur. At some point the designers will figure out some sort of guard rails, but the A.I. will also continue to learn and continue to include the new guard rails in its “thinking”.Ya that's the one I was talking about...that's the reason I thought your ChatGPT example was so interesting as it just rolls out language & expressions as any human would. Unfortunately, Adam got caught in the web and paid the ultimate price.
Sheesh, you'd imagine the inventors would have placed some guard rails around ChatGPT...what were they thinking?
They will probably have to design a “conscience” for the A.I. to provide guidance. I am not sure that the designers are advanced enough at this time to do that. So I expect continued disasters in the future of A.I. that presumably will be addressed with add-ons or revised versions.
I cannot imagine why Kreg would attempt to enter an already saturated market with the same things everyone else already has for less money. No one is going to pick that drill up and think "wow, so much nicer than what Harbor Freight sells".
Packard
Member
Kreg did it to themselves in the past. My first Kreg jig was a nicely machined casting. They then replaced it with a blue plastic version. A cheaper version of their own product. And not a parallel line, but an actual replacement.
Kreg has done this with other produces. Their track saw is a cheaper version of the Festool Track saw.
They have an upscale version of a circular saw edge guide that was originally offered as an alternative to the track saw. There are a bunch of videos online showing people building cabinet boxes using those edge guides and Kreg’s pocket hole jigs. They apparently are able to make a serviceable cabinet box using that equipment.
Kreg makes a cheap version of Blum’s hinge drilling guide. I’m sure that there are other examples. Lots of blue toys in the Kreg display at Lowes that I have no knowledge of.
rmhinden
Member
I am also confused why they would want to sell another set of drills and router with a new battery system. If I was going to guess, I suspect the sales of their track-saw must be meeting their goals, so they figured they could expand to more tools. Might also be about shelf space in stores.
ReneS
Member
Was that AI answer really created by the AI, or was it mostly copy and paste from existing articles?
onocoffee
Member
This is just impossible for me to fathom since through our current lifetimes we’ve had more than numerous examples of why AI is a dangerous thing.
The most obvious is The Terminator.
