KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
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Phil Beckley
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bobfog said:
...it cuts timber very accurately so it performs its basic role very well so I would disagree with bodged design......the feet supply an option to work with a Systainer if the need arises.
rg
Phil
Phil Beckley
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bobfog said:
....alternatively I am sure someone will produce something cheaper to bring the machine up to the height of a Sys1.....the feet do not have to be purchased after all and a solution can be found in other ways.
rg
Phil
Phil Beckley
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Festo, I fear your days are numbered. You've become boring.
[/quote]
Great analysis I think its spot on.
Festool became sort of a kitch. Top in marketing but lacking in innovation/engineering. Too many gimmicks and nasty marketing tricks. I perceive it as a very dishonest company.
[/quote]
....not boring for sure and innovation is constant within the company - innovation takes time and yes Festool are ahead in this respect. The mass market is not our territory and Festool will keep to the well known route of supplying solutions to specific application issues and the pro market. Festool are good at marketing to our customer base as are all successful companies and brands....this surely is to be expected it is part of business.
However, as for gimmicks and dishonesty I will pass comment on
rg
Phil
[/quote]
Great analysis I think its spot on.
Festool became sort of a kitch. Top in marketing but lacking in innovation/engineering. Too many gimmicks and nasty marketing tricks. I perceive it as a very dishonest company.
[/quote]
....not boring for sure and innovation is constant within the company - innovation takes time and yes Festool are ahead in this respect. The mass market is not our territory and Festool will keep to the well known route of supplying solutions to specific application issues and the pro market. Festool are good at marketing to our customer base as are all successful companies and brands....this surely is to be expected it is part of business.
However, as for gimmicks and dishonesty I will pass comment on
rg
Phil
OMG , Methinks thou dost protest too much.
"it fits the system with the UG cart",
Yep, so does my 100 quid hobbyist saw after and adapter is made or purchased.
"it is lightweight, wide angle range,"
Again so is that cheapie I mentioned and the practical angle range is really no better than
any other saw.
"great extraction",
you got me here - it does.
"folds up small for transport,"
same again on the cheapie one
"simple LED light for the kerf, blade stops in a couple of seconds,"
same again - lots of saws do.
"left or right handed use, "
so does every other vertical handed mitersaw on the market.
And - you guys are really hanging your hat on 10% of the population ? Of which , what percent are mitersaw buyers ? And of that group - what percent are then festool mitersaw buyers ???
Few ! It is of course your business, and you should run it as you see fit. But to proclaim some broad appeal of a feature that isn't popular with the majority of users is a bit naive or arrogant. I'd be willing to place a sinigificant wager that horizontal (righty only) handled saws outsell vertical handled makes on the order of 20 to 1. It's a differentiator for sure, but a feature warranting a premimum price ?
Did you ever survey your core customers - 90 % of whom are right handed - to see what they'd have preferred ? And if lefties are so high on the priority list - why no lefty version of the tracksaws ?
"can be used with the new leg extensions or the version for the 120, takes up very little space as the head runs on these..."
same with my cheapie
"it cuts timber very accurately"
so do all my mitersaws - it's kinda pointless to have/keep tools that don't produce accurate results.
" it performs its basic role very well "
yep - see above. And I can buy 5 of them for the cost of a FT entry level saw.
This is the rub and angst that I think has percolated here. When you position yourself as the best , and your core customers come round and point out what they'd think your system should be ......well , to then say are our designers think , or we don't feel "x" is necessary ect... kinda is arrogance . Or, to say our's has all the features the others have but is better because it's more expensive and lefties can use it naturally , is well.........
Sorry Seth, just callin it like I see it.
"after all and a solution can be found in other ways."
Mgmt. should be very careful about this catching on.
I love all my Festools, but I'm here to tell you they don't lead in every catagory. And when you hold yourself up as one of the pinnacles , you had better deliver, and get used to taking criticism from core customers when you don't quite hit the mark. You might even think about consulting them - which is a very un-German business practice. Japanese firms do this with good effect for contrast. But to each his own.
"it fits the system with the UG cart",
Yep, so does my 100 quid hobbyist saw after and adapter is made or purchased.
"it is lightweight, wide angle range,"
Again so is that cheapie I mentioned and the practical angle range is really no better than
any other saw.
"great extraction",
you got me here - it does.
"folds up small for transport,"
same again on the cheapie one
"simple LED light for the kerf, blade stops in a couple of seconds,"
same again - lots of saws do.
"left or right handed use, "
so does every other vertical handed mitersaw on the market.
And - you guys are really hanging your hat on 10% of the population ? Of which , what percent are mitersaw buyers ? And of that group - what percent are then festool mitersaw buyers ???
Few ! It is of course your business, and you should run it as you see fit. But to proclaim some broad appeal of a feature that isn't popular with the majority of users is a bit naive or arrogant. I'd be willing to place a sinigificant wager that horizontal (righty only) handled saws outsell vertical handled makes on the order of 20 to 1. It's a differentiator for sure, but a feature warranting a premimum price ?
Did you ever survey your core customers - 90 % of whom are right handed - to see what they'd have preferred ? And if lefties are so high on the priority list - why no lefty version of the tracksaws ?
"can be used with the new leg extensions or the version for the 120, takes up very little space as the head runs on these..."
same with my cheapie
"it cuts timber very accurately"
so do all my mitersaws - it's kinda pointless to have/keep tools that don't produce accurate results.
" it performs its basic role very well "
yep - see above. And I can buy 5 of them for the cost of a FT entry level saw.
This is the rub and angst that I think has percolated here. When you position yourself as the best , and your core customers come round and point out what they'd think your system should be ......well , to then say are our designers think , or we don't feel "x" is necessary ect... kinda is arrogance . Or, to say our's has all the features the others have but is better because it's more expensive and lefties can use it naturally , is well.........
Sorry Seth, just callin it like I see it.
"after all and a solution can be found in other ways."
Mgmt. should be very careful about this catching on.
I love all my Festools, but I'm here to tell you they don't lead in every catagory. And when you hold yourself up as one of the pinnacles , you had better deliver, and get used to taking criticism from core customers when you don't quite hit the mark. You might even think about consulting them - which is a very un-German business practice. Japanese firms do this with good effect for contrast. But to each his own.
I'd never actually thought of those ridiculous vertical handles as being some sort of "gender equity" device for making the world a better place....
To me, it was just another example of the fashionable trend of placing form before function. I especially hated it because I've found the combination of poor ergonomic design embodied in the not just vertical but also elongated void in the handle gets dangerously slippery when used in summer especially. I tried to circumvent an accident by coating my handle in cross linking polymer tape to seek a more secure grip. The whole adoption of those ridiculous "unisex" vertical handles displays a fundamental lack of understanding of ergonomics.
When Elu, Electra Beckum et. al. first developed this class of machine back in the late 70's & early 80's they applied sound human engineering principles to their tools in a way that the post millennial copycats seem incapable. Hell, even Raymond DeWalt's saw from the 1930's has better ergonomics in many ways, despite having only a push/pull action rather than the controlled pull/lower/push/raise action of latter day SCMS.
Granted, I'm not crack-handed like the 10%, but I sympathise with their ergonomic difficulties in what is effectively a right handed world. My eldest daughter is thus afflicted. Nevertheless it is at best disingenuous & at worst cynical and callous to impose what is effectively an inappropriate and potentially dangerous design on the remaining 90% of users using equity as an excuse for poor design! Most competitors manage to provide superior, well designed, safe & easily identified & manipulated ambidextrous safety interlocks, yet Festo and a select few others seem incapable.
To me, it was just another example of the fashionable trend of placing form before function. I especially hated it because I've found the combination of poor ergonomic design embodied in the not just vertical but also elongated void in the handle gets dangerously slippery when used in summer especially. I tried to circumvent an accident by coating my handle in cross linking polymer tape to seek a more secure grip. The whole adoption of those ridiculous "unisex" vertical handles displays a fundamental lack of understanding of ergonomics.
When Elu, Electra Beckum et. al. first developed this class of machine back in the late 70's & early 80's they applied sound human engineering principles to their tools in a way that the post millennial copycats seem incapable. Hell, even Raymond DeWalt's saw from the 1930's has better ergonomics in many ways, despite having only a push/pull action rather than the controlled pull/lower/push/raise action of latter day SCMS.
Granted, I'm not crack-handed like the 10%, but I sympathise with their ergonomic difficulties in what is effectively a right handed world. My eldest daughter is thus afflicted. Nevertheless it is at best disingenuous & at worst cynical and callous to impose what is effectively an inappropriate and potentially dangerous design on the remaining 90% of users using equity as an excuse for poor design! Most competitors manage to provide superior, well designed, safe & easily identified & manipulated ambidextrous safety interlocks, yet Festo and a select few others seem incapable.
mrboult
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[member=727]antss[/member]
What on earth are you talking about!? I honestly think you should apologise to
Phill. You aggressively rubbished everything he said with practically zero substance in your comments.
I've used as many cheap mitre saws over the last 15 years as anyone you're going to meet. . . .
1 - if you want to spend a day making a questionably acurate adapter for your cheap saw to fit festool extensions then no one would stop you. . .
2 - yes many cheap saws have guide light/laser, but boy do they stop/start working, get clogged in dust due to poor location, loose their accuracy - if indeed they ever had accuracy. . .
3 - the 60 degree cutting left or right is NOT common on all cheapie saws, what bull*# to say it is.
4 - left handed use likely referes to the location of of the motor so it doesn't trap a hand when holding the timber on the right of the saw. there are many reasons why a right handed user like myself may want to use the saw 'left handed'.
So it's not designed for 10% of users it is just designed well.
5 - if by "cheapie saws" you are referring to a saw that costs less than half the festool (which you should be if your comments are to have any validity) then please let us know what wonderful and cheap mitre saw you own. I would love to find a mitre saw less than £250 that is as reliably accurate as a festool saw.
My personal experience with saws in this price range is a lot of adjusting angles with my own bevels and squares rather than use the markings on the saw. . .
Sorry to dig at you antss, but your post sucked like a snot faced toddler with a temper tantrum.
Festool is expensive, but it is not THAT expensive. Sometimes people get a little OTT in their opinion of what they are owed by the company because they've invested in some of the company's tools.
What on earth are you talking about!? I honestly think you should apologise to
Phill. You aggressively rubbished everything he said with practically zero substance in your comments.
I've used as many cheap mitre saws over the last 15 years as anyone you're going to meet. . . .
1 - if you want to spend a day making a questionably acurate adapter for your cheap saw to fit festool extensions then no one would stop you. . .
2 - yes many cheap saws have guide light/laser, but boy do they stop/start working, get clogged in dust due to poor location, loose their accuracy - if indeed they ever had accuracy. . .
3 - the 60 degree cutting left or right is NOT common on all cheapie saws, what bull*# to say it is.
4 - left handed use likely referes to the location of of the motor so it doesn't trap a hand when holding the timber on the right of the saw. there are many reasons why a right handed user like myself may want to use the saw 'left handed'.
So it's not designed for 10% of users it is just designed well.
5 - if by "cheapie saws" you are referring to a saw that costs less than half the festool (which you should be if your comments are to have any validity) then please let us know what wonderful and cheap mitre saw you own. I would love to find a mitre saw less than £250 that is as reliably accurate as a festool saw.
My personal experience with saws in this price range is a lot of adjusting angles with my own bevels and squares rather than use the markings on the saw. . .
Sorry to dig at you antss, but your post sucked like a snot faced toddler with a temper tantrum.
Festool is expensive, but it is not THAT expensive. Sometimes people get a little OTT in their opinion of what they are owed by the company because they've invested in some of the company's tools.
Stephen B
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[member=41214]Phil Beckley[/member]
Thank you Phil for providing some Festool perspective here.
I still am not convinced that the 'system' concept has been followed here and when compared to the 120.
I think one of the difficulties highlighted by this thread, was that the release publicity has been based on a video of self congratulation for the designers/engineers etc., rather than a video providing real information about this saw. Such a release video could still have had the same production values but more promotion of the saws attributes in actual use.
On looking at the Festool Aust site I notice that the KS60 UG adapter can be purchased separately. Does this mean that by purchasing the adapter, a 120 UG can be used with the KS60? [ [member=13058]Kev[/member] ]
http://www.festool.com.au/epages/tooltechnic.sf/en_AU/?ObjectPath=/Shops/tooltechnic/Products/202056
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The personal attacks need to stop or those posts will be deleted in accordance with the forum guidelines. If it is impossible to post without the attacks or the shielded attacks then don't post.
Peter Halle - Moderator
Peter Halle - Moderator
Phil Beckley
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Untidy Shop said:
.......more practical information will be coming as it is still early days for the release of the KS60 - you will be seeing more form the UK for sure on this area and this will focus on the usage of the machine - I will post this as soon as the dates are firmed up.
The UG stand from the 120 can be used with the adaptor plate so the KS60 can sit on as well. The legs from the 120 can also be used. A new version for the KS60 is available to allow for the shorter width of the KS 60 and then the scales will be correct.
Hope this helps
rg
Phil
Iceclimber
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How did this saw not get the token Festool FRONT adjustible bevel feature.
Maybe not a deal breaker but a let down for sure.
The only improvment i see on this saw is the lazer for the blade light.
Well and the size reduction if thats something you want. The rest Festool just keeps missing.
Make a accurate saw with a strong powerful motor that lasts decades not years or months with inovative features like the front bevel adjust or simple to use tilt function like the bigger Kapex a quality blade out of the box and you got something.
So wait what did festool need to do with this saw "shrink the kapex in its current form but add a strong a reliable motor" that would had sold saws to the Festool loyal.
Maybe not a deal breaker but a let down for sure.
The only improvment i see on this saw is the lazer for the blade light.
Well and the size reduction if thats something you want. The rest Festool just keeps missing.
Make a accurate saw with a strong powerful motor that lasts decades not years or months with inovative features like the front bevel adjust or simple to use tilt function like the bigger Kapex a quality blade out of the box and you got something.
So wait what did festool need to do with this saw "shrink the kapex in its current form but add a strong a reliable motor" that would had sold saws to the Festool loyal.
Phil Beckley
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antss said:
.....I stand by all I put in the original post earlier in the thread. It was intended as informed comment on the KS60 and some of the features that may appeal to others who read the forum pages.....I have had use of the KS60 for the past few months and have also carried out a lot of comparison work on competitor machines as well and it is well designed for the segment to which it is aimed at.
I try and post objectively and have never said Festool are the best......I try and let the machine capabilities speak for 'it' and if this helps the end user to consider a benefit to there work then sure my job is done.
rg
Phil
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[member=41214]Phil Beckley[/member] - When you mention "legs", are you referring to the extensions with the folding legs?
Also, just to be concise, if someone would have a Kapex 120 with the UG stand and the extensions, he could use the KS60 with the adaptor plate interchangeably with his existing UG and extensions as site conditions required?
Peter
Also, just to be concise, if someone would have a Kapex 120 with the UG stand and the extensions, he could use the KS60 with the adaptor plate interchangeably with his existing UG and extensions as site conditions required?
Peter
Phil Beckley
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Peter Halle said:
....yes, extensions with folding legs.
....So if the full version of the KS120 is already owned....the KS60 will fit to this set up with the adaptor plate.
rg
Phil
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[member=41214]Phil Beckley[/member], two last questions:
If you are mounting the KS-60 onto the adaptor plate to use it on the UG stand, do you need to remove the previously mentioned feet?
Does the KS60 mounting plate have any sort of soft "feet" so that it could be used off the UG on the floor without removing the saw from it, and if so, does the saw base then line up with a systainer height?
Peter
If you are mounting the KS-60 onto the adaptor plate to use it on the UG stand, do you need to remove the previously mentioned feet?
Does the KS60 mounting plate have any sort of soft "feet" so that it could be used off the UG on the floor without removing the saw from it, and if so, does the saw base then line up with a systainer height?
Peter
Phil Beckley
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I think what folks(the normal ones in this post) are getting at is if I remove my ks120 from the ug cart and place the ks60 in the adapter and than on the said ug cart will the measuring scale still work? The adapters are genius if they make the ks60 the same width as ks12" without adapters.
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[member=41214]Phil Beckley[/member] please see above post.
Peter
Peter
Phil Beckley
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glass1 said:
....the scales will not be correct. Hence the reason for the separate Leg extensions
rg
Phil
Kev
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Phil Beckley said:
Sadly the incompatibility of the extensions is the biggest issue. I'd be extremely reluctant to buy a KS60 and then buy another complete UG setup and the same will probably true for someone that buys a complete KS60 + UG setup and momentarily considers a KS120.
I really do consider this a monumental blunder ... the feet issue is just stupid and they should be included - that's a really unnecessary money grab, but the extension incompatibility is dumb.
The KS60 may be a great little saw, but the company that preaches system, system, system just lost the plot entirely.
