MAC vs PC

[GhostFist]

sigh.....
http://gizmodo.com/#!5542527/undercover-report-from-foxconns-hell-factory

 

[pugilato]

ABC News recently did a piece in which they selected a house, and took out everything that was not made in the USA.  Unbelievably, the only thing left was a flower pot (or something like that).  No tables, no chairs, no kitchen tools or gizmos, nothing.  Everything that this country invented and used to make is not made here anymore.  And so it is with Apple and just about everything else we use.

Some would say that it was the greed of the manufacturers, others would say it was the greed of the unionized workers.  And always the pressure from consumers for stable or preferably lower prices.  Something had to give, and the result is what we see now.

So dont be critical if I will buy something that is made overseas but serviced and supported here.  I want the thing to work reliably.  I want to be able to buy it.  If it were made in America, it (whatever it is) would probably be unaffordable.  So there it is... I did not make the system.  It developed into what we see now, and I would love to see things go back to the way they were.

 

[Kodi Crescent]

From now on, when I look at my iPod touch I'll think "somebody died to make this for me!"  Then I'll say a prayer and cherish the little device even more.

Seriously though.  What are we to do about it?  I know that the usual response is "don't buy from evil corporate denizens."  Okay, but what if I need access to that technology to keep my technical skills current so that I can be effective in my job and feed my family?  It becomes a no-win situation.

And what's the difference between buying something made in China vs. something made in Germany?  Its still manufactured overseas.

 

[fritter63]

Some would say that it was the greed of the manufacturers, others would say it was the greed of the unionized workers.  And always the pressure from consumers for stable or preferably lower prices.  Something had to give, and the result is what we see now.

Don't worry, American wages are about to reset so we'll be cheaper!

 

[mlfaber]

I love Mac!  I too, like some on this thread, have built pc's in the past and currently have a dell laptop (only cause my company makes me).  However, when it came time to buy my wife a new laptop I researched both PC and Mac.  Mac remindes me of Festool.  They are built like tanks.  Her laptop is made from all metal.  All of the details are well thought out, from the back lit keyboard to the magnetic power cable.  If looking at laptops, is batttery a factor?  Her battery can last up to 10 hours on a single charge.  Also, she has had it over a year and it runs flawlessly, without an anti-virus program in it.  Also, their operating system is hardly as taxing on the computers resources as Windows.  It just simply runs and continues to run, no issues!!!

 

[Ken Nagrod]

ABC News recently did a piece in which they selected a house, and took out everything that was not made in the USA.  Unbelievably, the only thing left was a flower pot (or something like that).  No tables, no chairs, no kitchen tools or gizmos, nothing.  Everything that this country invented and used to make is not made here anymore.  And so it is with Apple and just about everything else we use.

Some would say that it was the greed of the manufacturers, others would say it was the greed of the unionized workers.  And always the pressure from consumers for stable or preferably lower prices.  Something had to give, and the result is what we see now.

So dont be critical if I will buy something that is made overseas but serviced and supported here.  I want the thing to work reliably.  I want to be able to buy it.  If it were made in America, it (whatever it is) would probably be unaffordable.  So there it is... I did not make the system.  It developed into what we see now, and I would love to see things go back to the way they were.

I didn't know I was being greedy all this time.  Pardon me for wanting within reason and performing to high standards.  Maybe if you actually talked with members, you'd get a more accurate picture, but why do that when you can jump on the band wagon and spout rhetoric.

 

[Eli]

Well, as a union man myself I do take issue with the assumption that the union workers are causing all the problems. My union brothers have been doing it hard since the mid nineties and only now that tax incentives have collapsed in every other state, has the industry base returned to it's rightful place. But the film industry is probably a unique example.

But careful reading would seem to say that he meant to enlighten us as to what public opinion could be on the potential cause of the problem, not his own opinion that union workers are greedy.  [big grin]

Isn't that right?  [wink] [big grin]

[scared]

 

[fdengel]

My new Mac Pro is scheduled to be delivered today.

I'm excited.

(I do some video editing, photography, etc., and have needed the upgrade to the extra horsepower for some time now -- finally...)

 

[pugilato]

Sorry if I offended, but that was not the intention... just putting it all on the table.  If all points of view are not set forth, then we will not see where others are coming from.  

Of course unions are not the cause of all problems. But are they completely innocent victims of the greed of manufacturers?  I think not... no one is.  I am not anti-union, in fact, I think they are necessary because management can be abusive and there has to be push-back.  Unions did not start because workers wanted to rule the world...

Another consideration... are the government regulations that are there to protect workers over the top?  I used to be in management and sometimes it seemed that way.  

I dont know why everything we use is made somewhere else.  But it is surely a combination of factors...

Let's talk about cars.  In the 80's, I bought two Ford vehicles.  My experience was so bad that I have not bought American since.  Was it poor design?  Crappy materials?  Poor construction?  I don't know, but I do know that a car is an expensive proposition, and whoever is building that should consider that I am not going to experiment with American-built just because I'm patriotic.

 

[Sparktrician]

Unless one is very well off, buying products made outside the US is unavoidable. Everything from clothes, tools, tv's, computers, etc,etc,etc are all made elsewhere (including PCs).

I agree with pugilato that it is nice when customer service includes face to face help, email or someone will call you at the time you ask them to call.  I will spend my money at companies that invest a little more in customer service, like Festool and Apple.

Tom

 

I STRONGLY prefer buying US-made goods, all things being equal, but in the absence of US-made tools (or whatever) that fit the need, I will buy the product that fits the need, regardless of source.  The exception is goods made in China.  I strenuously object to sending my dollars to a nation that has a stated objective to put the US under, one way or another.  If they can't do it militarily, they will try to do it economically.  What most westerners fail to recognize is that the Chinese are insidious and patient, and will work at something until it happens, unlike westerners that are impatient and want it all, now. 

 

[pugilato]

Me too... but I will buy Macs, which are made in China.  The one thing I will never, ever buy from China is anything that goes into my mouth.  I can't believe those people with "accidental" lead in the paint, or the tainted dog food, or the milk. 

 

[jmbfestool]

Well I have had my Imac for a while now and Ipad and MacbookPro.

At first I HATED the Imac and MacBook Pro and thought the Ipad was just okay.  I was thinking of getting my PC back out and my laptop! 

Well......  I love it!  I would never go back the PC.  I turned my Laptop on the other day and man I hate it lol! I thought why did I like this crap thing!  The Imac is sooooo fast and so is the MacBook pro no waiting everything is just instant.  I like how its easier to keep everything tidy and I love the MAGIC trackpad!  I got the apple magic mouse and Magic trackpad with the Imac I have never switched the magic mouse on!  Its still brand new and I dont think ill ever use it! 

The magic trackpad is amazing!  1 finger 2 finger 3 finger 4fingers strokes makes things so quick and easy!  I will never be going back to a mouse again they are rubbish lol!

The Ipad is brilliant for when I just watching TV or something and I just want to check FOG and do some internet research.

Also I have loads of Apps for my work carpentry.  Okay some of them are Iphone apps cus unfortunately they have not made a Ipad version but they still work just as good.  I like the roofing app and baluster apps really handy! No need for a roofing sqaure!

Over all I like the stuff!  Just waiting now to see if Ipad 3 has what I want cus I think Ipad 2 is a load of crap so im sticking with my Ipad 1 for now.

JMB

 

[joraft]

I STRONGLY prefer buying US-made goods, all things being equal, but in the absence of US-made tools (or whatever) that fit the need, I will buy the product that fits the need, regardless of source ... 

I feel the same way, when I need something I'll look for products made in the U.S.A. first, then move on to foreign made if I must. Surprisingly, I have found a surprising number of high quality tools and machines made here, and at competitive prices. But it does get harder all the time.

Having said that, I have pretty much accepted the fact that we now live in a "world economy", that the competition for sales is very intense between countries, and that it will only continue to grow. However, what remains a curiousity to me is that despite the continuing widespread anger towards American companies that move jobs overseas, with our government even repeatedly threatening to financially punish them, Apple has always gotten a pass on any criticism, even though everything they sell is made in Asia. I hate to think that it is because their products are so culturally popular in the U.S., because that would make us a bunch of hypocrites.  [wink]

 

[NuggyBuggy]

My only complaint is that the Apple stores in the mall are always mobbed!  The unique customers can make for some interesting people watching though.

Book an appointment online and then you won't have to wait nearly as long.  

It still boggles my mind that there is someplace one could walk into and get decent to very-good face-to-face technical advice, even if you didn't buy the computer there.  It's one reason I told my sister and sister-in-law to buy iPhones even though I prefer Android phones myself.  My sister couldn't figure out how to do something, she just went into her local store and a few minutes later she was happy.

If they were having usage or technical issues with Windows or their Windows computer, I'm stuck dealing with it, either trolling technical forums, calling outsourced help desks with limited technical knowledge, or sending emails to tech support and waiting perhaps days for likely minimal response.

When I had a Thinkpad, I was thrilled that IBM would courier me a FedEx box by the next day, and that I got my computer back within two weeks.  Back then, IBM Thinkpad service was known to be top-of-class - they also charged premium prices.  Last year my Macbook Pro display died, I took it into the Apple store, and the computer was ready for me with new display installed the very next day.  I was stunned.

 

[NuggyBuggy]

However, what remains a curiousity to me is that despite the continuing widespread anger towards American companies that move jobs overseas, with our government even repeatedly threatening to financially punish them, Apple has always gotten a pass on any criticism, even though everything they sell is made in Asia. I hate to think that it is because their products are so culturally popular in the U.S., because that would make us a bunch of hypocrites.  [wink]

That's not true.  Apple has taken a lot of heat in the popular press.  As a start, as someone else earlier in the thread suggested, google "Apple foxconn". 

 

[joraft]

At first I HATED the Imac and MacBook Pro and thought the Ipad was just okay.   I was thinking of getting my PC back out and my laptop! 

Well......   I love it!  I would never go back the PC. 

Of course it is a matter of personal preference. I have been working on the MS platform since the early eighties, when I switched from CPM. Warts and all, I have always been able to work well with Windows machines, have built scores of them from the ground up, and like the open architecture (which is getting less open all the time). Over all, they have served me well, and I'm comfortable with them.

A few years ago my daughter had the nerve to marry a guy who works for Apple in Cupertino (she left her custom built PC behind when leaving home

). In fact, he's in new product development and heads a team that travels frequently to China for quality control purposes. This guy live and breathes the Apple culture, I swear if he were to cut himself he would bleed only apple juice. He deeply believes that anyone who tries an Apple product will never again think about anything else. For that reason he has placed a couple of MacBook Pros in our home. While I do appreciate the quality of these machines, they have not swayed me one bit from my Win 7 fleet. Although my wife now loves to surf the net with a her MacBook and is sporting a new iPhone.

First my daughter, and now my wife. I may have to kill this guy.  [mad]

 

[joraft]

However, what remains a curiousity to me is that despite the continuing widespread anger towards American companies that move jobs overseas, with our government even repeatedly threatening to financially punish them, Apple has always gotten a pass on any criticism, even though everything they sell is made in Asia. I hate to think that it is because their products are so culturally popular in the U.S., because that would make us a bunch of hypocrites.  [wink]

That's not true.  Apple has taken a lot of heat in the popular press.  As a start, as someone else earlier in the thread suggested, google "Apple foxconn". 

Perhaps "any criticism" is too strong, but they certainly are treated much kinder than other companies that have their products made overseas.

Look carefully and you'll see many of those screaming for boycotts also carrying one or more Apple products.  [wink]

 

[NuggyBuggy]

Well, if you look into the Foxconn issue you will see that Foxconn they issued a press release directly responding to an audit Apple did after a few suicides in one of their plants (though such suicides are not limited to just Foxconn).  Apple took a ton of heat on that issue even though Foxconn makes electronic components that find their way into devices made by many manufacturers that are not Apple, including Dell, HP, Sony, Microsoft, Acer, Asus, Samsung, etc, etc.  None of these latter were forced to respond to the issue.

So in a way it seems that Apple may actually be held to a higher moral standard than other companies.  Why, I am not sure.  I, for one, have never been under any delusion that Apple is under any better or worse ethical stewardship than any other company.

 

[joraft]

... So in a way it seems that Apple may actually be held to a higher moral standard than other companies. 

I don't know by who. It's certainly not by the "court of public opinion".  Just the announcement of a new product will cause lines to form all over the country, no matter what that product does, where it is made, or the working conditions invovled in making it.

I'm not saying that Apple is any better or worse than any other company, I just find the undying love and devotion they seem to have generated among so many Americans very curious. 

I personally believe that these days anger towards ANY company that outsources their products is an exercise in futility. But, I do think those who insist on being angry should direct that anger toward all companies equally.

 

[NuggyBuggy]

I don't know by who. It's certainly not by the "court of public opinion".  Just the announcement of a new product will cause lines to form all over the country, no matter what that product does, where it is made, or the working conditions invovled in making it.

I'm not saying that Apple is any better or worse than any other company, I just find the undying love and devotion they seem to have generated among so many Americans very curious. 

I would differentiate between the (I agree) disproportionately  positive attention the press seems to make about every new Apple product release and any ethical standard the company may be held to.  There hasn't been a big public outcry made about Foxconn stuff going into Dell or HPs or Xboxes, that I am aware of.  Why not ?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

Apple has become a leader in many spaces, very good at defining new product areas, and the press coverage reflects that.  As much as I love my Samsung Captivate phone, for instance, a story about a new Samsung product release just isn't going to generate the same number of clicks as an iPhone release, because Samsung and its ilk are not driving innovation in the same way.  They are driving competition, and in the case of the Captivate IMO, implementing what is more rather than less of a knock-off, better.