MAC vs PC

[GhostFist]

I brought up the foxconn issue for the simple reason that it will still be defended by apple devotees. I'm well aware that many of our products are made in these overseas factories, paying their employees dribble so we can have our flashy gadgets. I'm comforted that while we pay a premium for FESTOOL products, at least it's not made by slaves, unlike apple

 

[Kodi Crescent]

My only complaint is that the Apple stores in the mall are always mobbed!  The unique customers can make for some interesting people watching though.

Book an appointment online and then you won't have to wait nearly as long.  

It still boggles my mind that there is someplace one could walk into and get decent to very-good face-to-face technical advice, even if you didn't buy the computer there.  It's one reason I told my sister and sister-in-law to buy iPhones even though I prefer Android phones myself.  My sister couldn't figure out how to do something, she just went into her local store and a few minutes later she was happy.

If they were having usage or technical issues with Windows or their Windows computer, I'm stuck dealing with it, either trolling technical forums, calling outsourced help desks with limited technical knowledge, or sending emails to tech support and waiting perhaps days for likely minimal response.

When I had a Thinkpad, I was thrilled that IBM would courier me a FedEx box by the next day, and that I got my computer back within two weeks.  Back then, IBM Thinkpad service was known to be top-of-class - they also charged premium prices.  Last year my Macbook Pro display died, I took it into the Apple store, and the computer was ready for me with new display installed the very next day.  I was stunned.

I do book online when I have a technical issue.  Its fun to go into the local store.  There's some very unique-looking individuals, cute girls, and even a little person working there.

I too had to troll those internet forums to fix my PC.  It boggles my mind that I can take my computer in and say "Here.  Please fix this" and I'd get it fixed with next day service.

If you want to talk about corporate scumbags, look no further than IBM.  Google "IBM Alliance job cuts" for some interesting reading about the multiple waves of layoffs.

 

[Kodi Crescent]

However, what remains a curiousity to me is that despite the continuing widespread anger towards American companies that move jobs overseas, with our government even repeatedly threatening to financially punish them, Apple has always gotten a pass on any criticism, even though everything they sell is made in Asia. I hate to think that it is because their products are so culturally popular in the U.S., because that would make us a bunch of hypocrites.  [wink]

I agree.  Apple is a media and cultural darling.  They've done an excellent job elevating their products to "deity" status.
Its sacrilege to speak ill of Apple.  In my opinion, PC's are easier to do productive work on.  Apple UI's are prettier, but they aren't as efficient as the PC interface, at least not for standard corporate-type work, in my opinion.

But I will buy Apple products just so I can walk into the mall, hand it to a person at the Apple store and say "This is broken.  Please fix it."

I'm now ready to be buried chest deep and stoned to death for my sacrilege.

 

[Eli]

I'm comforted that while we pay a premium for FESTOOL products, at least it's not made by slaves, unlike apple

You are of course aware that not every single part of every Festool product is made in Germany, and in fact, it is very very probable that many of the components are made in China, assembled in Germany, and labelled "Made in Germany" ?  [embarassed]

 

[joraft]

You are of course aware that not every single part of every Festool product is made in Germany, and in fact, it is very very probable that many of the components are made in China, assembled in Germany, and labelled "Made in Germany" ?  [embarassed]

Just part of the times we live in, it's often really hard to tell where product components are made, and exactly where final assembly takes place. Those of us who have built our own computers know that just about every component is made in either China or Malaysia.

On the other hand, it makes me very happy when I buy something and it arrives with a label like this:

Or this:

 

[NuggyBuggy]

I brought up the foxconn issue for the simple reason that it will still be defended by apple devotees. I'm well aware that many of our products are made in these overseas factories, paying their employees dribble so we can have our flashy gadgets. I'm comforted that while we pay a premium for FESTOOL products, at least it's not made by slaves, unlike apple

I'm a fan of Apple's computers and mostly, their operating system.  I am hardly an Apple devotee: am not a fan of the iPhone, iPad, or iPods, which I dislike for a number of reasons.  I dislike Apple's iTunes-centricity, and I think Steve Jobs is a grade-A a-hole. 

While I'm glad I don't have  to work the way people do at Foxconn and other factories, I will say this: the people in the factories choose to work there (yes, even in China).  They are not slaves, and if Foxconn closed shop tomorrow, the people would not be better off - far from it.

It's  plain hypocritical to complain about just one company that uses the same factories as every other electronics maker. 

 

[NuggyBuggy]

Apple UI's are prettier, but they aren't as efficient as the PC interface, at least not for standard corporate-type work, in my opinion.

I believe that anyone finding the Windows interface more efficient than a recent version of OS X has not worked very long in the latter.  The types of things that OS X does best - moving files around between frequently used places, locating files in frequently used folders, searching for files, managing and switching between open applications - are the things that most people do most of the time when they are interacting with the operating system.

Windows 7 is very pretty, at least as pretty as Snow Leopard, but IMO extremely inefficient to do work in.  The default Aero theme is an extremely poor piece of UI design, IMO.  The notion that translucency in the menu bars made it into the default theme says worlds about how  MS prioritizes eye-candy and efficiency.

 

[joraft]

I believe that anyone finding the Windows interface more efficient than a recent version of OS X has not worked very long in the latter.  The types of things that OS X does best - moving files around between frequently used places, locating files in frequently used folders, searching for files, managing and switching between open applications - are the things that most people do most of the time when they are interacting with the operating system.

Windows 7 is very pretty, at least as pretty as Snow Leopard, but IMO extremely inefficient to do work in.  The default Aero theme is an extremely poor piece of UI design, IMO.  The notion that translucency in the menu bars made it into the default theme says worlds about how  MS prioritizes eye-candy and efficiency.

The bottom line, our opinions will always be based on our own experiences.

I've spent quite a bit of time working with Snow Leopard, and still feel more comfortable on an MS system. That makes sense, I've been working with that platform for decades. I always try to keep an open mind, but I still have come up with no reason to change.

 

[pugilato]

This discussion, interesting as it may be, is sounding a lot like religion.  Its just a computer, not the gate to eternal salvation... 

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Bob Marino, I bet you never thought this would turn into anything more than a Apple vs. PC war debate, leading to pick and choose the tidbits that swung you one way or the other.  You unknowingly opened up a whole can of worms.  Happy fishing my friend.  [big grin]

 

[joraft]

This discussion, interesting as it may be, is sounding a lot like religion.  Its just a computer, not the gate to eternal salvation... 

I think the same can be said for opinions on any special interest, like woodworking tools.  [big grin]

 

[joraft]

Bob Marino, I bet you never thought this would turn into anything more than a Apple vs. PC war debate ...

I think that was predictable, considering the subject.  [smile]

Actually,  this discussion has been very civil compared to many I've seen on this topic.

 

[NuggyBuggy]

I've spent quite a bit of time working with Snow Leopard, and still feel more comfortable on an MS system. That makes sense, I've been working with that platform for decades. I always try to keep an open mind, but I still have come up with no reason to change.

Here's the worst part of Windows 7/Vista.  After investing almost 2 decades interacting with Windows 3.0, 95/Me/NT/2000/XP, I find Windows 7 to be completely baffling.  Stuff is no longer where I expect it to be.  It's almost as bad as the 2007 and up incarnations of Office where all the key bindings have changed completely.  WTH ?

It would be one thing if the design changes made sense - I adapted to OS X, after all, which is completely different than any of the Windows UIs, and spent years working in a number of other windowing environments under Linux and OS/2 - but Windows 7's interface changes just seem like change for change's sake. 

I cannot point to a single thing that the Windows 7 interface does differently, that I like.  I absolutely hate using my Windows 7 laptop unless I am playing a game (and out of the interface).  If someone could tell me "here's what's good about the Windows 7 interface", I'd look at it and try to grok it.  But as far as I can tell, the only reasons to like  Windows 7 is that 1) the computers it runs on are (at first blush) cheaper than Macs, and 2) it is better than Vista or XP.

 

[vidkid26]

First my daughter, and now my wife. I may have to kill this guy. 

Resistance is futile.

 

[Jesse Cloud]

  ....  But as far as I can tell, the only reasons to like  Windows 7 is that 1) the computers it runs on are (at first blush) cheaper than Macs, and 2) it is better than Vista or XP.

Microsoft should change their advertising slogan to the old saying "Better than a sharp stick in the eye!" [laughing]

 

[joraft]

Here's the worst part of Windows 7/Vista.  After investing almost 2 decades interacting with Windows 3.0, 95/Me/NT/2000/XP, I find Windows 7 to be completely baffling.  Stuff is no longer where I expect it to be.  It's almost as bad as the 2007 and up incarnations of Office where all the key bindings have changed completely.  WTH ?

It would be one thing if the design changes made sense - I adapted to OS X, after all, which is completely different than any of the Windows UIs, and spent years working in a number of other windowing environments under Linux and OS/2 - but Windows 7's interface changes just seem like change for change's sake. 

I cannot point to a single thing that the Windows 7 interface does differently, that I like.  I absolutely hate using my Windows 7 laptop unless I am playing a game (and out of the interface).  If someone could tell me "here's what's good about the Windows 7 interface", I'd look at it and try to grok it.  But as far as I can tell, the only reasons to like  Windows 7 is that 1) the computers it runs on are (at first blush) cheaper than Macs, and 2) it is better than Vista or XP.

Moving stuff around for new releases has long been common in software, I've always thought so that they can be called "new versions" instead of "upgrades". I agree that it is very irritating in that many changes are seldom better, just different, and they make adjusting to the new version an unnecessarily tougher process.

I like Win 7 because it is the most stable MS OS that I've used, it is secure to the point of being overly obtrusive (but that can be tweaked), and the layout makes complete sense to me now that I have gotten use to it. I find it very fast and very powerful.

Another thing, a lot has been said here about the cost of machine repairs, and the availibility of tech support. In the three decades that I've been using personal computers I cannot remember ever taking a machine in for repairs, or ever calling anyone for tech support. Surely I can't be alone in that. 

 

[NuggyBuggy]

Another thing, a lot has been said here about the cost of machine repairs, and the availibility of tech support. In the three decades that I've been using personal computers I cannot remember ever taking a machine in for repairs, or ever calling anyone for tech support. Surely I can't be alone in that. 

Joraft, have you never had technical problems, or have you just fixed them yourself ? I guess that I am like you, but I think we are relatively rare in not necessarily needing technical support.  I have certainly had a number of computers that needed servicing, but usually I did that myself.  Calling tech support ? There would have been a hundred times I would like to have called tech support, but knew that Dell or HP or Microsoft or ATI or nVidia was not going to be there to help me, or would not be able to help me, so I had to figure it out myself.  Luckily, in many cases lots of other people had the same problems - a mixed blessing if there ever was one - so most of the time I could fix it.  I don't know what less technically inclined people do.  Actually, I do: they just live with it.

How happy would we be if a Festool tool broke, and we were stuck looking up the problem on the Internet ourselves, instead of being able to call one place or take into any dealer, and have them handle it ?

But if my Windows PC is continually crashing, who do I turn to ? Is it the fault of my video card ? Is it the motherboard ? Is it faulty memory ? Is it the power supply ? Is it driver incompatibility and if so, which drivers ? Is it Windows ? I can't count how many computers I've bought or built, and how many times I've had to back out an install, or re-install Windows entirely, because this version of this driver is incompatible with this other driver.  Now I understand that this is the direct consequence of Apple controlling so much of the ecosystem, but at this point in my life, I have better things to do than figure out what is wrong with my computers.  And I have better things to do than live with computers that aren't working properly.

Now maybe Windows 7 is better in this regards, but how many chances does a company deserve to get something right ? When they offer no (IMO) tangible benefits in comparison to the competition ?

 

[GhostFist]

Mind my lack of clarity, I'm on some long hours right now. Just to repeat, I'm an apple user, I have two of them a Macbook pro and an Imac. I don't currently own a pc. I'm well aware that apple isn't the only company that manufactures products in this manner and as for my comment on Festool admittedly i don't know all the corporate wheeling and dealings behind every part in their devices I assume it's a safe bet that a large portion of the work is done in germany to at the very least their minimum wage but again that's an assumption. Foxconn makes products for loads of electronics companies including Samsung, Sony and Microsoft  and their's more than likely a boatload more factories just like it producing 90% of the crap we own. I simply brought it up because there's always this notion that apple can do no wrong and you're crazy to think otherwise.

 

[Bob Marino]

Bob Marino, I bet you never thought this would turn into anything more than a Apple vs. PC war debate, leading to pick and choose the tidbits that swung you one way or the other.  You unknowingly opened up a whole can of worms.  Happy fishing my friend.  [big grin]

Ken,

I wrote a long reply, but must of hit the wrong key and got deleted, so I will be brief.

I had a feeling this would take turns; that's OK, still tons of great help. John R, yes this still quite civil; we've all seen other posts go negative big time.
Anyhow, I am leaning to the MACS primarily because of the same reasons I like Festool.

Service - as mentioned, I am not techy  (Shane can attest to that )  and if I have questions, I can easily get in contact with tech support - and tech support is not outsourced outside the USA. There are also free classes and even one to one training; if I so choose. I like dialing a single number, not a series of phone prompts.
Seem to built better and have fewer problems. Initial price may be higher, but my time is important and my frustration level low for dealing with poor customer service. I am willing to pay more for that.
I appreciate the fact that Apple has a handful of computers, rather than dozens and dozens like the rest.  IMHO, they, like Festool don't issue new models monthly - they do their homework and get the product right. When there are enough upgrades available, only then will a new model be issued. Buy a Dell today, 1-2  months later, the price is lowered by $100.00, 3-4 months later there is a new skew number and 8 months later the computer is no longer available. Maybe a slight exaggeration, but not far off the mark. That they choose to have a maintain a  set price no matter where you shop is also a plus in my mind. Saves me from wasting my time and theirs  trying to get the "best deal".

Build a quality product, maintain the best customer support, support your dealer network - way too many similarities to Festool, for me not to be impressed.

Bob

 

[pugilato]

Amen to that brother... let's change subjects.