Magic

[Al]

My wife decided that she liked cherry better than red oak for nightstands.  Unfortunately I had both almost complete.  I tried several different stains, using a grain filler to try to reduced the strong grain in red oak.  Although I sanded after applying the grain filler, it seems that the grain filler penetrates the pores very well, even better than the grain.

The closest that I can come to the color of cherry is a stain called Cabernet by Valspar.  While it has the red, so far I haven't been able to get it dark enough unless I'm staining the end grain.  Then it's perfect.

Do any of the magicians in this group have a clue to what my problem is and/or to suggest a work-around.

Al

 

[Brice Burrell]

Sure, no problem. Get some poly, then put it on cherry, done. Sorry, finishing isn't my area (and neither is humor). 

 

[Al]

Brice,

You're 100% correct............. on both counts.

Al

 

[Scott W.]

Al,

You need to use dye, not stain. Stain does not really get darker with more applications, Dye does.

Hint: If you really want the cherry look, put some yellow dye down first (yes yellow  ) then put down the red/cherry.

As always test on a piece of scrap.

Scott W.

 

[onap]

I 've a lack of understanding, English is not my native tongue:
What is the differnce between dye and stain?

Thanks for your help

 

[dirtydeeds]

dyes get deep into the cells of the wood

stains lie on the surface of the wood

 

[Per Swenson]

Trans tint dyes.

You can dye just about anything.

We even dye epoxy.

Transtint is both water and alcohol soluble.

Like me ;D

See here. http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/TransTint.htm

Per

 

[monte]

Keep in mind that some "dyes" are not colorfast (will fade in short order....esp. if exposed to sunlight)

Check the box......(or jar)

But the difference is incredible when using dyes with the right clearcoat.......almost to a 3 dimensional look.

 

[ccmviking]

      I use the transtint liquid dye in denatured alcohol (you can get it in gallons at Lowes).  You'll need to find what recipe works best for you but it doesn't usually take much dye.  I spray it, just make sure you fog the piece evenly, but basically the more you spray it the darker the piece will get.  If you're trying to get the end grain to match, you'll need to seal it first (using a toner).  Anyway dyes are definitely your answer to this problem.  Read some of Jeff Jewitt's work on the subject.

Chris...   

 

[Al]

      I use the transtint liquid dye in denatured alcohol (you can get it in gallons at Lowes).  You'll need to find what recipe works best for you but it doesn't usually take much dye.  I spray it, just make sure you fog the piece evenly, but basically the more you spray it the darker the piece will get.  If you're trying to get the end grain to match, you'll need to seal it first (using a toner).  Anyway dyes are definitely your answer to this problem.  Read some of Jeff Jewitt's work on the subject.

Chris...   

Chris,

The only toner I've ever used is in my HP Laserjets.  Can you clue the clueless?  I need a quick education before I have to listen to any more bitchin'.

Al

 

[Al]

dyes get deep into the cells of the wood

stains lie on the surface of the wood

I wish I knew that before buying all those quart cans of stain.  You guys are giving me a quick education.

 

[Al]

One more question for you gurus.  Using stain, it seems the thing stained most is the grain.  It instantly goes almost black (or very dark brown).  Although Crystalac says to stain first and then use their grain filler, it would seem more logical to apply the grain filler first and then to stain (or as advised......... dye) the red oak.  Is there a way to minimize the grain?  In other words, to get the Red Oak grain as subdued as the Cherry grain.

Thanks for all the help, guys.  You're keeping me out of the dog house.

Al

 

[dirtydeeds]

as monte said, some dyes are not colourfast

generalisation          water based dyes are less colourfast than alcohol ones 

 

[peter halle]

This is a little off topic but it does fit into finishing and also magic. Might be fun to try on scraps of different woods. I've used it to age cherry.

Many years ago an article appeared in Fine woodworking magazine on the use of lye to age cherry and other woods. I have used it in two projects and the process is like magic. Spray on using an old spray bottle, watch it change before your eyes. If anyone is more interested in the process, I'll add more details.

Peter

 

[Al]

This is a little off topic but it does fit into finishing and also magic. Might be fun to try on scraps of different woods. I've used it to age cherry.

Many years ago an article appeared in Fine woodworking magazine on the use of lye to age cherry and other woods. I have used it in two projects and the process is like magic. Spray on using an old spray bottle, watch it change before your eyes. If anyone is more interested in the process, I'll add more details.

Peter

Pete,

Please do add more details on this aging process.

Al

 

[peter halle]

Al,

I will be happy to.  It may have to wait till tomorrow though.  I want to do photos at start, 3 minutes, 10 minutes 30 minutes.  I've never posted photos so it will be an experience.

The jist of the article was that a guy who was in the furniture refinishing business (second generation I believe) accidentqally spilled drain cleaner on his cherry countertops and discovered accidentally a way to accelerate the aging process for cherry that his family had been looking for to make newer furniture look more like older cherry furniture.

I had a project that came up for a repeat client of mine that used cherry, and remembering that article from many years back I looked it up.  I use a lye solution in the water purification process for my 4 salt water aquariums so I tried that out.  The concentration is lower than what the author used but 8 tablespoons to a gallon of water works.  Red Devil granulated drain cleaner is what I use.  It is getting harder to find.

Using normally precautions for dealing with a chemical that will dissolve your body, it is as easy as spraying windex on a window.  It will normally change to green and then will develop what is like a natural patina - not a stained look.  It will not affect sapwood.  It will affect different woods in different ways.

Al that I can say is that I did work for one customer, he loved it, his neighbor saw it and hired me to do the same.  I will try to find some photos to follow.

This process is not a replacement for dyes or stains.  This deals with the natural chemicals in the woods and does not bring forth the uniform results of a stain or dye.  Both of these clients understood that and wanted to see the natural variations.

I'll follow back tomorrow with more.

Peter

 

[Brice Burrell]

Ok, thanks, Peter, I'm looking forward to your pictures.

 

[ccmviking]

Al,  You can spray your stain and get a similar effect.  I don't know what you have so it's hard to say for sure but you can try it.  You just don't want to wipe on it before you top coat.  Hey a toner is basically a watered down top coat to help seal the grain (especially end grain).  At least they way I do it is that I will even mix some dye into some heavily diluted top coat (I use U.S. Cellulose / AMT / Chemcraft's LC825 Conversion Varnish) for my top coat.  It's the toughest stuff I've ever used.  Not that I've used everything but damn it works good.  basically you have to seal the end grain so that it doesn't soak up a bunch of stain.  That way you'll get a more even appearance.  It's not really that tough, you just got to get in there in get after it.

Chris...

 

[Al]

Al,

I will be happy to.  It may have to wait till tomorrow though.  I want to do photos at start, 3 minutes, 10 minutes 30 minutes.  I've never posted photos so it will be an experience.

The jist of the article was that a guy who was in the furniture refinishing business (second generation I believe) accidentqally spilled drain cleaner on his cherry countertops and discovered accidentally a way to accelerate the aging process for cherry that his family had been looking for to make newer furniture look more like older cherry furniture.

I had a project that came up for a repeat client of mine that used cherry, and remembering that article from many years back I looked it up.  I use a lye solution in the water purification process for my 4 salt water aquariums so I tried that out.  The concentration is lower than what the author used but 8 tablespoons to a gallon of water works.  Red Devil granulated drain cleaner is what I use.  It is getting harder to find.

Using normally precautions for dealing with a chemical that will dissolve your body, it is as easy as spraying windex on a window.  It will normally change to green and then will develop what is like a natural patina - not a stained look.  It will not affect sapwood.  It will affect different woods in different ways.

Al that I can say is that I did work for one customer, he loved it, his neighbor saw it and hired me to do the same.  I will try to find some photos to follow.

This process is not a replacement for dyes or stains.  This deals with the natural chemicals in the woods and does not bring forth the uniform results of a stain or dye.  Both of these clients understood that and wanted to see the natural variations.

I'll follow back tomorrow with more.

Peter

Pete, you really got my attention.  I will find the Devil tomorrow and I can't wait to see your photos.

Al

 

[Al]

Al,  You can spray your stain and get a similar effect.  I don't know what you have so it's hard to say for sure but you can try it.  You just don't want to wipe on it before you top coat.  Hey a toner is basically a watered down top coat to help seal the grain (especially end grain).  At least they way I do it is that I will even mix some dye into some heavily diluted top coat (I use U.S. Cellulose / AMT / Chemcraft's LC825 Conversion Varnish) for my top coat.  It's the toughest stuff I've ever used.  Not that I've used everything but damn it works good.  basically you have to seal the end grain so that it doesn't soak up a bunch of stain.  That way you'll get a more even appearance.  It's not really that tough, you just got to get in there in get after it.

Chris...

Chris,

You lost me on the first and second line up until "Hey a toner".  "........ get a similar effect"???  to what?    What I have that is causing me headaches is a nightstand made of Red Oak that my wife wants to look like Cherry.  Nothing more, nothing less.  I was even thinking of painting the damn thing as I couldn't get any stain to give the darkness of cherry.  I'm not a fan of painting anything indoors.

Al