Magic

[peter halle]

Al,

I recently did a crown molding project in an office reception area where they wanted the old banker look as I call it.  Really dark cherry everything.  This incidentally was the office of one of the clients that I used the lye solution for their home.  Anyway, with the only moldings available in time and within budget being white pine, I starting looking for a stain.

I selected the same exact stain that you did - Valspar Cabernet.  By the time I went to buy it two days later - Lowe's had quit selling it and none was to be found.  I went to Woodcraft and used their General Finishes Georgian Cherry Wiping stain.  It ended up with the dark red color.  It has a urethane in it so in so it does act like a toner to some degree - it doesn't soak in like a pigmented stain.  I used it because I wanted to minimize the blotchiness tendencies of the pine.  Plus being a wipe on stain you can get more control over color.  If you try this product remember to stir well so that the stain and the urethane mix well.

If you want to try the lye "trick"  please try on scrap and remember that it will age cherry to look like older cherry.  It will not age oak to look like cherry.

Good luck.

Peter

 

[ccmviking]

Al,

I'm just referring to layering your stain to increase the darkness.  One of the issues with regular stain is that you wipe off more than what stays on.  When you use dye's, etc. and spray your finish you are laying on thin layers and letting it dry on your material.  You can get a darker color this way.  It doesn't look the same as a gel or conventional but IMO you can get a more even, darker color with less blotchiness.

Chris...

 

[Michael Kellough]

If you want to try the lye "trick"  please try on scrap and remember that it will age cherry to look like older cherry.  It will not age oak to look like cherry.

Good luck.

Peter

Ammonia will darken oak.

 

[Al]

Al,

I selected the same exact stain that you did - Valspar Cabernet.  By the time I went to buy it two days later - Lowe's had quit selling it and none was to be found.  I went to Woodcraft and used their General Finishes Georgian Cherry Wiping stain.  It ended up with the dark red color.  It has a urethane in it so in so it does act like a toner to some degree - it doesn't soak in like a pigmented stain.  I used it because I wanted to minimize the blotchiness tendencies of the pine.  Plus being a wipe on stain you can get more control over color.  If you try this product remember to stir well so that the stain and the urethane mix well.

Good luck.

Peter

Pete,

Your mention of the blotchiness tendencies of pine leads me to think that the blotchiness can be compared to the wild grain of red oak and so this Georgian Cherry Wiping Stain would minimize the boldness of the grain of red oak.  Do you agree?

 

[peter halle]

Al,

Sorry that it took me so long to get back.  I am not an expert by any means in finishing, but here are my thoughts on your situation.

I think that you will have an impossible task in getting your red oak to look like cherry.  You may achieve the coloration that you want and obscure the grain through various means, but the fact is that oak is an open grain Wood and cherry is a closed grain wood.  The cell structure is just different.

To obscure the grain and get the coloration you can use toners, dyes, seal the wood with thinned shellace before staining, etc.  Anything to limit the absorption of the product being applied.  In my limited experience, the longer the time a stain, dye, etc takes to dry, the more pronounced those pores or the grain will be accented. 

The results I achieved with the previously mentioned wiping stain was due to the fact that it was thick (limiting absorption) and also had a urethane which made it sticky.  Trial and error is regrettably part of the finishing end of a project.  Maybe that is why I love the natural color of wood and don't mind the variations in a piece versus those who want the evennous of color of a manufactured piece or kitchen cabinets.

I will on the other hand try to get some shots of the lye results this evening after work.  I don't have shop space, so I am at the whim of the weather, and it has been wet and dreary here.

Peter

 

[Al]

Pete,

My wife liked the color and results of the wiping stain.  It minimized but didn't hide the grain.  I guess she's happy enough to live with that.  I didn't use a grain filler although I'm going to test that given a little bit of free time.  I really don't expect much difference although it probably will level the finish more than just applying the wiping stain.

A saleman at Rocklers had a small can of the stain which he wiped on some scrap oak.  I was sold immediately.  Now I have 3 or 4 quart cans that'll last longer than me.

Al

 

[nickao]

Al if you are using Oak, grain filler will not only make a difference it will make a HUGE difference for the positive. Especially if you want it to look like cherry or any closed grain wood.

CrystaLac clear grain filler is the shi*! The easiest to use at any stage in the finishing process, either before stain or after depending on the look you want.

Crystalac

Nickao

 

[peter halle]

Al,

If the wife is happy,  god bless you.  Finishing is all about experimentation in my honest opinion (sorry for the fact that i spell things out versus using things such as imho).  I haven't forgotten about the lye trick.  Ran late today and then my wife surprised me with a Bday present - not Festool Green - Blu Ray.

Will follow up as soon as I am able.

Peter

 

[Al]

Pete,

I'd like to say that you should educate your wife that there is only one color you like........ Festool green............ but then I can't throw bricks in any direction.  I retired 5 years ago but started working for my younger son about a month ago for two reasons.  I'm short 13 quarters for Social Security.  I have a nice pension but I robbed the cradle and don't want my wife to ever be a burden on our sons.  Hence, going back to work.  But, as always, there are alterior motives.  She can't bitch about what I spend for tools or anything else.  She's worked as a bartender for almost 30 years and I never asked her how or where she spent her money.  I'm retired with a pension so, what I make doesn't go into the checkbook............ it's Bob Marino money............. and I see a Kapex in my very near future......... like July.

Al

 

[peter halle]

Al,

Here is my first attempt at posting photos.  Here goes...

Natural Cherry
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Application Equipment
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Cherry 5 minutes after spraying
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Cherry Next Day - dry
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Lyed Cherry With Finish
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Natural Cherry with Finish
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Hope that this works.

Peter

 

[peter halle]

... and for those who like mahogany...

Sprayed with lye solution
[attachthumb=1]

Next morning dry
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Natural (untreated portion with clear finish)
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Lyed portion with clear finish
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And yes, before anyone asks, the lye solution does raise the grain and I did not sand before or after applying the finish.  When sanding afterward it is possible to sand thru, but that area can be touched up successfully.

Peter   ;D

 

[JJ Wavra]

Al,

I think that you are done from your posts but here is my two cents.

first fill your grain on your oak, then add a coat of around a two lb. cut shellac(zinsser seal coat is an example of pre made one and it is wax free).  Add the dye over the top of that and allow to completely dry( transtint mixed with alcohol dries quite fast).  You can dye the project so that it has the same hue as cherry.  I am sure that there is a couple of dyes involved some in the reddish family and some others i am sure.  once you have the project dyed so you have the hue of cherry then add your stain and allow that to dry you will not need to wipe it off just let it dry and make sure you have an even coat.  Next I spray a shellac on top, zinsser makes a spray can of shellac the orange peel is rather ugly but it disappears when you put a clear coat on top of it.  This coat is important to seal in the dye and stain so you don't wipe it off when you are putting on the top coats.

hope this helps

JJ

 

[Al]

Al,

I think that you are done from your posts but here is my two cents.

first fill your grain on your oak, then add a coat of around a two lb. cut shellac(zinsser seal coat is an example of pre made one and it is wax free).  Add the dye over the top of that and allow to completely dry( transtint mixed with alcohol dries quite fast).  You can dye the project so that it has the same hue as cherry.  I am sure that there is a couple of dyes involved some in the reddish family and some others i am sure.  once you have the project dyed so you have the hue of cherry then add your stain and allow that to dry you will not need to wipe it off just let it dry and make sure you have an even coat.  Next I spray a shellac on top, zinsser makes a spray can of shellac the orange peel is rather ugly but it disappears when you put a clear coat on top of it.  This coat is important to seal in the dye and stain so you don't wipe it off when you are putting on the top coats.

hope this helps

JJ,

I like your ideas but I'm in the dark on one of them.  After dying the oak with a cherry flavor, why would I then stain it?  Part of the problem is that I can't find the exact color that I'm looking for.    As I understand it, the dye, by itself, will change the color and, if I get lucky with the dye I pick, then everything's great.  Why would I stain the oak after that?............ and probably change the color as well?  If I could find a stain that I liked, there would be no need for a dye job.

JJ

 

[Al]

... and for those who like mahogany...

Sprayed with lye solution
[attachthumb=1]

Next morning dry
[attachthumb=2]

Natural (untreated portion with clear finish)
[attachthumb=4]

Lyed portion with clear finish
[attachthumb=3]

And yes, before anyone asks, the lye solution does raise the grain and I did not sand before or after applying the finish.  When sanding afterward it is possible to sand thru, but that area can be touched up successfully.

Peter  ;D

Pete,

Those pictures really impressed me.  I was truly surprised at the after effects on the cherry.  The lye actually made the cherry pretty.  I don't know about others but cherry is a little boring to me as most furniture made of cherry is dull, even though the cherry gives off a warm glow.  Without some grain evident in the piece, I might as well spray some paint on the damn thing.  It sure would make the translation easier.

I do have one question....... well, let's make it...  two.  What do you use for your lye source and are you using it straight or diluting it with something?  I figure that I can stumble on the application rate.

TIA.

Al

 

[peter halle]

Al,

To answer your questions, source of lye is Red Devil granulated drain cleaner.  My ratio is 8 tablespoons per gallon of distilled water.  The author of the original article uses a stronger solution.  Experimentation is in order.  Just remember that it burns skin.  Weaker is better in my mind.

I agree with you that cherry can be boring.  I say that, but the majority of furniture that we see presented as cherry is not cherry - it's cherry colored using dyes and stains that equalize the underlying colors and obscur the grain.  Both the projects that I did using the lye retained their iridescence and changed color from one side of the room to another.

I am sorry that I can't post pictures at this time of either of the projects - a hard disk crash wiped out the photos in December.  I may be going back to the first one shortly to do more work.  If so, I'll get new photos.

Peter

 

[Al]

Al,

To answer your questions, source of lye is Red Devil granulated drain cleaner.  My ratio is 8 tablespoons per gallon of distilled water.  The author of the original article uses a stronger solution.  Experimentation is in order.  Just remember that it burns skin.  Weaker is better in my mind.

I agree with you that cherry can be boring.  I say that, but the majority of furniture that we see presented as cherry is not cherry - it's cherry colored using dyes and stains that equalize the underlying colors and obscur the grain.  Both the projects that I did using the lye retained their iridescence and changed color from one side of the room to another.

I am sorry that I can't post pictures at this time of either of the projects - a hard disk crash wiped out the photos in December.  I may be going back to the first one shortly to do more work.  If so, I'll get new photos.

Peter

Pete,

First, thanks for the info.  I'll have to pick up a can of that Red Devil and give it a try.  Second,  if you have a friend that handy with installing parts in computers or building them, have him install a RAID array, preferably a RAID 5.  One of my other hobbies is genealogy which produces a lot of email and a lot of documents.  My system is ridiculously large and complicated but, in the past, I've had a hard drive fail and lost thousands of emails AND all the bookmarks that I've had, probably close to a thousand.  My older boy repairs computers for UPMC, the U of Pgh Medical Center.  He installed a RAID 1 on my boot drive which contains nothing but the Windows system and drivers for all the crap hooked to my computer.  He then installed a RAID 5 for a couple of my other drives.  Without driving you nuts trying to understand, my vital data is stored in the RAID 5 system but backed up on the RAID 1.  You could call this a double-redundancy.  If any drive in either of the RAID systems goes bad, you replace that drive and tell the controller to rebuild and, within a day, everything is restored to normal.  You haven't lost any data.  Now, to make things safer, all of my email and genealogy and some other data that is very important to me is backed up every couple of days to the other RAID controller.  The only way that I can lose data now is to have a fire............. and it would have to be when I'm not at home as I was a professional firefigher for 37 years and I'd be damned if I'd lose my data to a little fire. ;D

 

[peter halle]

I was cleaning up my office and ran across some prints of a project done with the lye and water solution mentioned above.  Wood is cherry.  Finish is wipe on poly.  

Before (boring painted wall)

[attachimg=#]

After ( cherry and cherry plywood)

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Flutes (that is not me in the background)

[attachimg=#]

I bought the OF 1400 for the flutes.  First try.

Peter

 

[Al]

Pete,

You did a beautiful job and the flutes look great.  However, I didn't like the last photo as it appears that it's kind of a flat red and a little splotchy on the piece with the flutes and to the left it appears to also have the same coloring.  My guess is that these 2 sections were ruined by taking a photo with flash perpendicular to the surface of the wood.    As a matter of act, I'd bet on it.  The next time trying aiming at a different angle, maybe 20 degrees to one side or the other.  When you shoot head on onto a reflective surface, you get a lot of that light bouncing back to your camera......... dedicated to ruining your shot. 

Try a couple of shots at night 2 feet away from a window and you'll find the angle that'll work for you.

Again, great job!!

Al