New line of Festool products at Home Depot...

[greg mann]

All of this is very interesting but none of it is changing any opinions. Big surprise. I can't help but think about the OP's initial argument that $800 was way too much for a vacuum while at the same time stating how important dust collection was. His reference to his FIL suffering from lung cancer was illuminating. First: My condolences. Second: If his experience did not increase your understanding of the value of Festool, then nothing will. Take the boom arm off because you don't need that for lung protection. Remove everything unrelated to lung protection so you can do it as cheaply as possible and then make your comparison to a Rigid vacuum based solely on health benefits and then tell me it is not worth the money no matter where you need to go to buy it.

It strikes me, at the least, as inconsistent and, at worst, hypocritical to say you value clean air to breath but don't like the fact that the company offerring that to you wants you to pay for the efforts they put into creating it for you. So few companies really care to give you what you need and the one that does is at fault for not having the business model of the ones that don't.

While Bob Marino is a Festool dealer, he is also a repiratory therapist. Care to add anything about the cost of respiratory care, Bob?

 

[Frank Pellow]

That's excellent advice Greg!

 

[Frank Pellow]

I don't recommend Homedepot - but I would like to be able to get Fes a little easier ( I live in Canada). Lee Valley would be a great chain to sell Festool products.

Since you live in Canada and are interested in Festool, you should contact Dan Clermont (http://www.ultimatetools.ca/)

 

[Bob Marino]

All of this is very interesting but none of it is changing any opinions. Big surprise. I can't help but think about the OP's initial argument that $800 was way too much for a vacuum while at the same time stating how important dust collection was. His reference to his FIL suffering from lung cancer was illuminating. First: My condolences. Second: If his experience did not increase your understanding of the value of Festool, then nothing will. Take the boom arm off because you don't need that for lung protection. Remove everything unrelated to lung protection so you can do it as cheaply as possible and then make your comparison to a Rigid vacuum based solely on health benefits and then tell me it is not worth the money no matter where you need to go to buy it.

It strikes me, at the least, as inconsistent and, at worst, hypocritical to say you value clean air to breath but don't like the fact that the company offerring that to you wants you to pay for the efforts they put into creating it for you. So few companies really care to give you what you need and the one that does is at fault for not having the business model of the ones that don't.

While Bob Marino is a Festool dealer, he is also a repiratory therapist. Care to add anything about the cost of respiratory care, Bob?

  Greg,

You have a talent for getting to the heart of the matter in a most elegant manner. And working at a major cancer hosptal, I have seen way too many patients suffering and many ultimately dying from lung cancer; plenty of times avoidable, if other behaviour or actions were taken.
I remember going into my neighbor's cabinet shop in Brooklyn about 35 odd years ago to ask him for some wood and what I remember most was the almost total disregard, care or concern with dust collection; there was dust all over and the workers were covered also; at most  they had the cheap paper dust masks. I cringe when I think of those shops and those times.
Actually, some years ago, before I became a Festool Dealer (we were called ISA's) I  was asked by Festool to research and write a short article on the Health Hazards of Woodworking Dust. While I am not any type of alarmist and am not one of those who equate wood dust to plutonium,  nothing good and much harm comes from not taking proper precautions while workin' (particularly sanding, routing and sawing) with wood. And the best protection starts with capturing as much dust  at the source, not after it's spewn into the air.
The good news is that there is a much higher level of awareness today regarding the need for proper duct collection. Festool has always been at  the forefront on that issue and IMHO, has helped force/encourage other companies to at least take more than a passing glance at proper dust collection. And yes, you want good dc, there'a a cost to be paid;  you don't care about good dc, there's a greater cost to be paid.

Bob

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Thanks, much, Bob, for adding your personal and professional clarifying comments!!

Have you any information to add regarding an increased risk of lung disease associated with working with certain species of wood?  I'm thinking in terms of species that are laden with silica and/or other substances that function to prevent insect attack and decay, and that breathing the fine airborne dust (especially that which "floats" in the air) may be most injurious.  My hunch is those substances in some woods are likely to be far more harmful to human health if breathed than dust from wood species that do not contain them.  Have you noticed that grass doesn't grow well under black walnut trees even if they don't produce a lot of shade?  For a several years I worked for a major manufacturer of ceramic materials (who invented silicon carbide) and products including abrasives and ceramic fibers which were invented to replace asbestos fibers.  During that time I learned that asbestos causes a horrible form of lung cancer (mesothelioma) through physical irritation of the lungs, not through chemical action, and that risk is increased >1000 times for anyone who smoked tobacco while also breathing airborne asbestos fibers.  I would guess that some woods may pose a risk of silicosis, too.

Dave R.

 

[EcoFurniture]

Really good points, guys!!!!! I finally found other woodworkers who understand the issue!

Dust and other off gasing issues were the main reason why I stopped working for other wood working companies.
Now,I proud myself, to put workers safety first in my company. We have safety guards installed on all of our power tools, with festool our shop is 90% dust free and evenly important is the absence of any toxic finishes and building materials.

I wish employers would take more attention to those critical aspects.

Just my 2c.

 

[Frank Pellow]

Really good points, guys!!!!! I finally found other woodworkers who understand the issue!

Dust and other off gasing issues were the main reason why I stopped working for other wood working companies.
Now,I proud myself, to put workers safety first in my company. We have safety guards installed on all of our power tools, with festool our shop is 90% dust free and evenly important is the absence of any toxic finishes and building materials.

I wish employers would take more attention to those critical aspects.

Just my 2c.

Good for you and I hope that your emplyees apreciate it. 

But, in my experience, it is often the employees who are at fault and who don't take advantage of the safety and health equipment already available to them

 

[Bob Marino]

Thanks, much, Bob, for adding your personal and professional clarifying comments!!

Have you any information to add regarding an increased risk of lung disease associated with working with certain species of wood?  I'm thinking in terms of species that are laden with silica and/or other substances that function to prevent insect attack and decay, and that breathing the fine airborne dust (especially that which "floats" in the air) may be most injurious.  My hunch is those substances in some woods are likely to be far more harmful to human health if breathed than dust from wood species that do not contain them.  Have you noticed that grass doesn't grow well under black walnut trees even if they don't produce a lot of shade?  For a several years I worked for a major manufacturer of ceramic materials (who invented silicon carbide) and products including abrasives and ceramic fibers which were invented to replace asbestos fibers.  During that time I learned that asbestos causes a horrible form of lung cancer (mesothelioma) through physical irritation of the lungs, not through chemical action, and that risk is increased >1000 times for anyone who smoked tobacco while also breathing airborne asbestos fibers.  I would guess that some woods may pose a risk of silicosis, too.

Dave R.

Western red cedar and black walnut seem to top the list. As for articles, I just did a 2 second search and there are more articles than you want to know, but here 's a few links.
http://www.gvwg.ca/docs/Articles/WoodToxicity.htm

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/wood_toxicity.php

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/pel88/wooddust.html

Bob

 

[Bob Marino]

But, in my experience, it is often the employees who are at fault and who don't take advantage of the safety and health equipment already available to them
[/quote]

Frank,

I agree with you that many times, employees just don't want to avail themselves of the most basic protection - they feel it is either not needed, or somehow impedes work, or is not comfortable.

Bob

 

[EcoFurniture]

But, in my experience, it is often the employees who are at fault and who don't take advantage of the safety and health equipment already available to them

Frank,

I agree with you that many times, employees just don't want to avail themselves of the most basic protection - they feel it is either not needed, or somehow impedes work, or is not comfortable.

Bob
[/quote]

Thanks for the links!

As for employees not taking safety measures:
I was working for a major furniture manufacturer here in Canada (Palliser), there policy was safety first. Sounds simple and straight forward, the difference was how they enforced it! The owner walked through production several times a day (2000 employees) when ever he saw anyone without the proper set up (machinery or personal) he fired them on the spot! They even let go high payed managers over that.
As a small business owner I can't just fire everyone when ever they do something wrong, but I have to say, that this was the only way to keep workers safe.

In the past while working for others, I was always keen in putting safety first. But except at Palliser, I ran into some "rednecks" that gave me heck for wasting my time setting up guards..... sad but true.  Something that NEVER had happened to me back in Germany!

 

[john5mt]

I have just taken the plunge into the ts55 and 1400 eq. It hurt but i am happy with my purchase. That's the beauty of festool. Instead of trying to compete they convince their customers of the value and quality, and i have a hard time finding people who regret their purchases. On top of that they also create good business relationships with their vendors who have an incentive to provide quality service because the margin is there. Not higher some apathetic college drop out who doesnt care because that's all they can afford on their margins. I think Festool has a long term business plan that will stand the test of time. They arent getting rich over night but they will stay in business.

 

[BC6738F5BCE98B4]

I am in the awkward position of agreeing with both sides of this discussion. 

I have purchased the Festool TS55 and 1400 router (and guide rails etc.) because I wanted the best tool I could get that would last more or less indefinitely.  On the other hand, earlier today, I purchased a refurbished DeWalt corded electric drill because it had the features and price point I wanted.  I am unlikely to ever purchase a Festool drill because I am a hobbyist (and don't use it every day) and the price I would have to pay for a Festool drill does not buy me enough extra to justify the cost.

I recently purchased some router bits, after reading some of this discussion, and was struck by the fact that Amana has confronted this precise issue before and ended up developing and marketing the Timberline line.  In general I will buy the Timberline product (at a lower cost) than the Amana because it gives me what I want/need at a price I can afford.  The difference between the lines, as it was explained to me, is that the Amana brand is for people who are going to be using the bit every day going through large volumes of material.  The Timberline product is designed for a less intense use.  That is a distinction which makes sense to me and justifies a price differential without, in any real sense, compromising quality. 

I can think of several other example (computer electronics come to mind) where a price differential does not necessarily mean a quality difference.  Rather, it can be used to distinguish different "bells and whistles" or different intended applications. 

I think it is entirely plausible to believe that Festool could make a lot of money and sell a lot of high quality tools if they gave their engineers the task of devising a product which would be comparable to an upper end Bosch or some of the DeWalt products and priced accordingly.  Some companies have quality control problems when their products are made/manufactured overseas, others don't.  Some companies have had both experiences depending on who (and how) supervised the overseas work. 

I see the Festool line as being for the person who wants the best (or one of the very best) solutions to a particular problem.  I can easily see Festool making some other line of product which is good (or very good) but which gives up something for a lower price.  As an example, I don't know that Festool currently takes non-German product parts, but if it doesn't then opening that up to properly specified parts might generate some cost savings. 

 

[Dave Ronyak]

BC,

What are you saying...that for some tools of interest to you, Festool standards are worth paying for (TS 55, OF 1400 router and Guide Rails) but not others (drills) because you don't expect to use those other tools enough to justify the Festool premium?  I am also a hobbyist and DIYer.  I don't own a Festool drill yet, but there is likely one in my future when I need to get into tight spaces.  That problem has confronted me several times when working on my 50+ year old home.  The older I become the more I realize the true value of buying the best quality you can find and afford in most tools.  Note also that Festool products thus far in USA have retained much of their original value upon resale, so in that sense, the price of Festool ownership may be lower than some other brands.

However, I will keep my Milwaukee Magnum corded drill with precision 1/4 inch keyed Jacobs forever because it can securely grip any bit and turn it with negligible runout.  No other drill I have ever owned has had as good a chuck.

I hope to never see Festool at HD and other big box stores.  I was very disappointed when I heard they were going into Rockler's stores and sure enough, on each of my visits to my local Rockler's store, their staff did not know much about the tools, and wouldn't demonstrate any of them to me or allow me to try any of them.  Needless to say, I did not buy any of my many Festools from Rockler either.  HD and other big box stores generally lock them down to prevent theft.  You can grip them to determine how they fit your hand, but that's about all you can really check out.

Lower cost of components from sources outside of Germany, sure, why not if the same overall quality specifications are met.  But sometimes educating those other potential sources itself involves much expense and the volume of components to be purchased cannot justify that front end cost and the risk of poor quality.  I've seen several examples of failed efforts to have aerospace components out sourced, as well as several successful efforts.  I have also witnessed a few years long re-learning curve after closure of a machining shop and relocation of those machines to a new location to be operated by comparably experienced machinists using the complete original drawings and specifications.  As one simple example of poor technical transfer consider the many mediocre automotive tire valves and tire inflation chucks being made by the Chinese, even those who acquired all the original design and manufacturing specifications.  The replacement sources don't yet understand the importance of tolerances and how to implement them.

Dave R.