New Router from JessEM

[WillB]

mini me
is this Jessem a CNC spindle?
or a hybrid router / spindle? 
it wont be quiet like a CNC spindle?
funny how in the other thread I mentioned, soon routers for tables will be offered as CNC spindles... then this appears

Agree about the video and promo, give us the data we need... dont need the drama....

 

[Mini Me]

mini me
is this Jessem a CNC spindle?
or a hybrid router / spindle? 
it wont be quiet like a CNC spindle?
funny how in the other thread I mentioned, soon routers for tables will be offered as CNC spindles... then this appears

Agree about the video and promo, give us the data we need... dont need the drama....

Firstly, my apologies for not adding to the other thread but I can't find a way to add annotated pictures unfortaunately and to simply dump them all into a post(s) will not be very helpful at all. I have read all the posts giving advice in the information section but in the end I have been forced to step back from the idea for the moment and re-think it.

The first thing that strikes me about the new router spindles and I guess that is the correct term for them is they are all air cooled and I am guessing they are louder than the WC CNC spindles though not having heard one I don't know. The main issue I have is they are air cooled drawing in dusty air and that has the same issues as air cooled routers and for a fixed table router there is absolutely no reason to stay with an air cooled spindle and it is a missed opportunity IMHO. In my table we have built a dust chute and the top of the spindle is in that chute, I don't know if that would be possible with an air cooled router spindle. I can't understand why all the manufacturers collectively insist on using this style of spindle when the CNC is already a known quantity, is far more capable due to being controlled via a VFD and is WC as well. I guess they all come out of the same factory in China based on the original AUK spindle which was a bit of a disaster and had to be withdrawn from sale due to speed control problems. I actually bought one and unknowingly sold unused it to a friend with all its problems and it lasted about an hour before it committed suicide.

I am guessing one of the reasons Jessem and all the other suppliers are using the AUK clone is that it fits their router lifts but that is only an assumption on my part. Using a round body commercial lift has now become unnecessary because one can build a lift which is not attached to the top for almost pocket money and if that idea is grasped by users they just lost a big source of income. A shop built lift could even be tilting which means most of the simple bits you own now have potentially far more uses as well as its designed purpose.

If anyone can help me with posting annotated photos I would appreciate it and perhaps contacting me by PM might be best.

 

[WillB]

thx for response MM
If the lift is not attached to the table, how do you keep the two fixed into position, as that is critical to maintain?

More importantly, agreed on the WC... why circulate all the dust for cooling.  If I a reading between the lines of what you wrote, its only the WC spindles that are quiet?
  Since Jessem is more of a router based company, I guess WC was too far of a stretch for them to consider WC.  Assuming one wants to use a standard router lift, is there a WC unit that will fit in the lift?  And where does the water circulate, is it self contained, or is there a small radiator located near the spindle?
thx in advance for all your contributions...
 

 

[Bob D.]

"The main issue I have is they are air cooled drawing in dusty air and that has the same issues as air cooled routers and for a fixed table router there is absolutely no reason to stay with an air cooled spindle and it is a missed opportunity IMHO."

One reason I can come up with right off is for those who do not heat their shop 24/7 in the Winter a water-cooled spindle might be a problem.

I don't heat my 2 bay garage shop all Winter, only when I am working in there. It does not get terribly cold here but can stay below freezing for days at a time and on occasion we do get some sub-zero temps. That's why I created a smaller shop in my basements so I could keep working through the Winter and not burn money heating the big shop.

 

[Mini Me]

thx for response MM
If the lift is not attached to the table, how do you keep the two fixed into position, as that is critical to maintain?

This is the manual table we built, it uses a lead screw for height control from above the table and a DRO for measuring the height and most probably cost less than a $100https://www.woodworkforums.com/f20/router-table-using-linear-rails-lift-227354

 

[Mini Me]

"The main issue I have is they are air cooled drawing in dusty air and that has the same issues as air cooled routers and for a fixed table router there is absolutely no reason to stay with an air cooled spindle and it is a missed opportunity IMHO."

One reason I can come up with right off is for those who do not heat their shop 24/7 in the Winter a water-cooled spindle might be a problem.

I don't heat my 2 bay garage shop all Winter, only when I am working in there. It does not get terribly cold here but can stay below freezing for days at a time and on occasion we do get some sub-zero temps. That's why I created a smaller shop in my basements so I could keep working through the Winter and not burn money heating the big shop.

I am truly glad that winter here requires a light jacket at the most to keep warm!! In all honesty I can't see any of the manufacturers even considering that point as valid as it might be, putting their own brand on it and spouting rhetoric on the fact they designed it is more important to them even if it is a dubious claim. 

 

[Bob D.]

"The main issue I have is they are air cooled drawing in dusty air and that has the same issues as air cooled routers and for a fixed table router there is absolutely no reason to stay with an air cooled spindle and it is a missed opportunity IMHO."

One reason I can come up with right off is for those who do not heat their shop 24/7 in the Winter a water-cooled spindle might be a problem.

I don't heat my 2 bay garage shop all Winter, only when I am working in there. It does not get terribly cold here but can stay below freezing for days at a time and on occasion we do get some sub-zero temps. That's why I created a smaller shop in my basements so I could keep working through the Winter and not burn money heating the big shop.

I am truly glad that winter here requires a light jacket at the most to keep warm!! In all honesty I can't see any of the manufacturers even considering that point as valid as it might be, putting their own brand on it and spouting rhetoric on the fact they designed it is more important to them even if it is a dubious claim.

No, it's not a condition the manufacturer would consider, but it is one that some purchasers need to evaluate. You stated "there is absolutely no reason to stay with an air cooled spindle" and my reply was yes, there is.

 

[festal]

"The main issue I have is they are air cooled drawing in dusty air and that has the same issues as air cooled routers and for a fixed table router there is absolutely no reason to stay with an air cooled spindle and it is a missed opportunity IMHO."

One reason I can come up with right off is for those who do not heat their shop 24/7 in the Winter a water-cooled spindle might be a problem.

I don't heat my 2 bay garage shop all Winter, only when I am working in there. It does not get terribly cold here but can stay below freezing for days at a time and on occasion we do get some sub-zero temps. That's why I created a smaller shop in my basements so I could keep working through the Winter and not burn money heating the big shop.

You can add antifreeze to the watercooling to prevent freezing and also you can add corrosion inhibitors as well

 

[Mini Me]

"The main issue I have is they are air cooled drawing in dusty air and that has the same issues as air cooled routers and for a fixed table router there is absolutely no reason to stay with an air cooled spindle and it is a missed opportunity IMHO."

One reason I can come up with right off is for those who do not heat their shop 24/7 in the Winter a water-cooled spindle might be a problem.

I don't heat my 2 bay garage shop all Winter, only when I am working in there. It does not get terribly cold here but can stay below freezing for days at a time and on occasion we do get some sub-zero temps. That's why I created a smaller shop in my basements so I could keep working through the Winter and not burn money heating the big shop.

I am truly glad that winter here requires a light jacket at the most to keep warm!! In all honesty I can't see any of the manufacturers even considering that point as valid as it might be, putting their own brand on it and spouting rhetoric on the fact they designed it is more important to them even if it is a dubious claim.

No, it's not a condition the manufacturer would consider, but it is one that some purchasers need to evaluate. You stated "there is absolutely no reason to stay with an air cooled spindle" and my reply was yes, there is.

I don't see that as a reason because anti freeze will prevent the problem as already posted but I thought living in those areas that would have been obvious and any advice from me who has never seen snow would be taken badly. 

 

[festal]

[member=58818]Mini Me[/member] i looked at your threads on the links provided and it looks like its geared towards stand alone routers.  Did you ever retrofit cnc spindle with vdf and router lift into router extension wing setup?

 

[WillB]

I would think a water cooled router could have some antifreeze in it, to lower the freeze point?  Does anyone know if the water cooled routers have external radiators, or are they on board?

 

[Cheese]

This whole discussion about air cooling vs water cooling isn't the slam dunk that it's made out to be. Here's an interesting article from the American Machinist website.
https://www.americanmachinist.com/m...ooled-cnc-spindle-which-is-better-cnc-masters

 

[WillB]

Cheese, this was a GREAT READ!
seems like a great analysis, at least to those of us with minimal experience.
Other than freezing issues, it seems water cooled is the way to go.
And it also answered my other question, water cooled is the ONLY quiet spindle... I was unaware that air cooled could not be made quiet as well.
It did not mention if the water cooled can have remote radiator, to prevent dust from overcoming the heat exchanger... a non issue with CNC's due to the opposite mounting orientation vs. a router table.
For a stationary router table that gets heavy use in commercial setting, seems a WC Spindle is an ideal fit.  Specially if you gain more power vs. standard router bodies.  Ideal when a shapers larger work is not required (i.e. large molding) and the user wants the benefits of the huge offering of router bits. 

 

[luvmytoolz]

As far as I'm concerned water cooled spindles just can't be beat, they don't get clogged up with dust, they're quieter (no fan noise), they don't blow dust everywhere, and they run cooler generally.

I've been running water cooled spindles the last 13 or so years, my CNC simply has a large bucket filled with about 10L of car radiator coolant (anti-freeze), and I had to top it up for the very first time maybe a few months back due to gradual evaporation. I'm currently building one for my router table.

And not blowing dust everywhere means that on finicky or delicate projects I can have the dust extractor off so I can see the full machining process without being buried in waste. This is very surprisingly handy being able to do that.

 

[Mini Me]

[member=58818]Mini Me[/member] i looked at your threads on the links provided and it looks like its geared towards stand alone routers.  Did you ever retrofit cnc spindle with vdf and router lift into router extension wing setup?

You seem to misunderstand what I am doing and perhaps that is my fault and not yours. The initial prove it build was done using a stripped down Triton router but the builds subsequent to that are all done using a WC CNC spindle. Follow all the links for more information.

 

[Mini Me]

This whole discussion about air cooling vs water cooling isn't the slam dunk that it's made out to be. Here's an interesting article from the American Machinist website.
https://www.americanmachinist.com/m...ooled-cnc-spindle-which-is-better-cnc-masters

I was not aware of the speed handicap the AC spindle has, very interesting indeed. The water issues raised don't reflect my experience, mainly the need to change the water, the low temp problem I can't comment on. We have had a WC spindle in daily use for about four years and never changed the water with no apparent problems but he most probably had a limit on how many words he could write so the article is more general in nature. I don't use a heat exchanger just a sealed reservoir with a few litres of water in it. 

 

[festal]

[member=58818]Mini Me[/member] i looked at your threads on the links provided and it looks like its geared towards stand alone routers.  Did you ever retrofit cnc spindle with vdf and router lift into router extension wing setup?

You seem to misunderstand what I am doing and perhaps that is my fault and not yours. The initial prove it build was done using a stripped down Triton router but the builds subsequent to that are all done using a WC CNC spindle. Follow all the links for more information.

Sorry misstyped.  I mean to say your builds are geared towards stand alone router tables.  Have you retrofitted VFD WC spindle with  your lift to table saw extension router table?  does it have enough room for that.  I have router extension wing and trying to see if its afeasable option

 

[Mini Me]

It is not something I have done but if you look at the manual table links I don't think it would be a huge challenge. I would build an integral cabinet attached to the extension and put the lift in that. The only thing I would change is the guide rails, the new ones that have become available in the last few years are way better. Not this one specifically but the same style.https://www.ebay.com/itm/202311053615?epid=1218861974&hash=item2f1aadb12f:g:ymUAAOSwa~BYVzZp&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoF0bP9nvbiiVBTIOORnGmNttOY1LBxlI49GeJDoQbv4ELBa8VljcNbUzRTb0BfNqK06xB1MbBg71kmoxNtdLArm7a9UDGk3WarsrqKK9qYhfGzFBi07olNEwfR2ugw7pUxkBWmejqdZ2eQUOYd101hXudu6Gc0gwcJwHKNTdjSiqxJp9CxABKU7h3uMpf%2FilcKk%2BIPtPj72995NjqIcz0oA%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR-CvuO2MYQ

A router/spindle does not move a lot vertically but because the spindle is so long the rails need to be about 300mm long.

 

[Michael Kellough]

It is not something I have done but if you look at the manual table links I don't think it would be a huge challenge. I would build an integral cabinet attached to the extension and put the lift in that. The only thing I would change is the guide rails, the new ones that have become available in the last few years are way better. Not this one specifically but the same style.https://www.ebay.com/itm/202311053615?epid=1218861974&hash=item2f1aadb12f:g:ymUAAOSwa~BYVzZp&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoF0bP9nvbiiVBTIOORnGmNttOY1LBxlI49GeJDoQbv4ELBa8VljcNbUzRTb0BfNqK06xB1MbBg71kmoxNtdLArm7a9UDGk3WarsrqKK9qYhfGzFBi07olNEwfR2ugw7pUxkBWmejqdZ2eQUOYd101hXudu6Gc0gwcJwHKNTdjSiqxJp9CxABKU7h3uMpf%2FilcKk%2BIPtPj72995NjqIcz0oA%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR-CvuO2MYQ

A router/spindle does not move a lot vertically but because the spindle is so long the rails need to be about 300mm long.

Since the spindle is only attached to the slide at the spindle’s collar, I don’t get why the travel needs to be more than about 150mm?

 

[Cheese]

I was not aware of the speed handicap the AC spindle has, very interesting indeed. The water issues raised don't reflect my experience, mainly the need to change the water, the low temp problem I can't comment on. We have had a WC spindle in daily use for about four years and never changed the water with no apparent problems but he most probably had a limit on how many words he could write so the article is more general in nature. I don't use a heat exchanger just a sealed reservoir with a few litres of water in it.

Ya, there were several interesting take-aways from that article. Most of the differences made sense but here are the ones that caught my eye and raised my eyebrows.

1. An air-cooled spindle can clock a rotational speed of 18,000 rpm. In contrast, a water-cooled spindle operates at 24,000 RPM.

2. Air cooling offers greater torque, which contributes to a powerful cutting force.

3. Water-cooled spindles deliver greater accuracy, with axial and radial runout being less than 0.003 mm.

4. Be sure to change the cooling water often.
 
5. Frequently clean the water tank, pipes, inlet/outlet, pump and other elements through which the water passes to remove any blockages.

If a person went with a water-cooled spindle I'd expect a simple aluminum cooling platen could be incorporated to assist in the cooling process. Just make sure the correct water & anti-freeze solution is used to prevent corrosion in any aluminum part that's in contact with the cooling liquid.