New Router from JessEM

[Mini Me]

5. Frequently clean the water tank, pipes, inlet/outlet, pump and other elements through which the water passes to remove any blockages.

If a person went with a water-cooled spindle I'd expect a simple aluminum cooling platen could be incorporated to assist in the cooling process. Just make sure the correct water & anti-freeze solution is used to prevent corrosion in any aluminum part that's in contact with the cooling liquid.

I can see no reason for any of that on a RT due to very short run times compared to a CNC and in my experience we haven't seen the need at all. Maybe if the local water source is questionable then purified or distilled water might be advisable. As for a heat exchanger again we don't use one and haven't had any temperature problems and that RT is in a woodworking school where it gets lots of use every day.

 

[luvmytoolz]

Ya, there were several interesting take-aways from that article. Most of the differences made sense but here are the ones that caught my eye and raised my eyebrows.

1. An air-cooled spindle can clock a rotational speed of 18,000 rpm. In contrast, a water-cooled spindle operates at 24,000 RPM.

2. Air cooling offers greater torque, which contributes to a powerful cutting force.

3. Water-cooled spindles deliver greater accuracy, with axial and radial runout being less than 0.003 mm.

4. Be sure to change the cooling water often.
 
5. Frequently clean the water tank, pipes, inlet/outlet, pump and other elements through which the water passes to remove any blockages.

If a person went with a water-cooled spindle I'd expect a simple aluminum cooling platen could be incorporated to assist in the cooling process. Just make sure the correct water & anti-freeze solution is used to prevent corrosion in any aluminum part that's in contact with the cooling liquid.

Not sure about the speed remark as pretty much all spindles are variable speed via the VFD regardless if they're water or air cooled, but unless they're a vectorless unit the torque once you go below around 7k really drops off to bugger all.

The water should almost never need to be replaced or cleaned. Only undiluted coolant/anti-freeze should be used, topped up or diluted with de-mineralised water if desired. Never plain tap water. The trick is to keep the tank shielded from dust and light, so it never gets contaminated or gunky. Worst that can happen is it evaporates a little over time. I refilled my 10L container a few months back for the first time in 12 or so years, and the balance was still perfectly clean.

Radiator, not needed at all, just keep a reservoir of coolant/anti-freeze large enough to keep the temp down. My tank is 10L and my CNC can run for 18 hours straight in summer in OZ which can get somewhat warm, but the spindle never gets above a little warm.

I see a lot of apprehension and misunderstandings on the forums about water cooling, it is far simpler and cheaper then most people would think, and it's a rock solid solution requiring no time, and barely any expense done simply and right.

 

[Lbob131]

Sauter  below  table  dust extraction  puts  an  end  to  dust  boxes  below the  table,  ducted  routers    or  not.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

[member=15545]Lbob131[/member] Sautershop plate and box, Mafell router motor, Festool extractor hose. The holy trinity IMHO.

 

[Bob D.]

Sauter  below  table  dust extraction  puts  an  end  to  dust  boxes  below the  table,  ducted  routers    or  not.

I like that.

 

[Mini Me]

The dust chute using a spindle. This is the table we abandoned the build on because of a whole heap of unseen issues. It works by pulling through a very long (by RT standards) opening in the top that starts at the spindle and goes under the fence by venturi effect, the second version has the open entry blocked off so all the air enters via the top slot only and it has to be long to provide the make up air for the dust extractor. The table insert will only be half and not a total insert, that allows the debris to be scavenged from the cut if doing a rebate for instance face down. If you think about full circle inserts and how close they are to the cutter I think you can agree that asking a dust extractor to pull anything through the small diameter opening is not a really viable idea especially when that opening is covered up during the cut and if no air can get in then none can get out hence the back towards the fence needs to be totally open.

View attachment 1

 

[WillB]

The more this thread develops, the more I learn just how impressive WC Spindles are vs. router motors for RT's.  More power (if needed, albeit with 240V), runs cooler, easy maintenance, very low noise, reduced wood burning due to higher speeds which can be maintained, dust issues are eliminated and cost is not as great as I had thought.  I am impressed these spindles only require a bucket of coolant and a pump.  I would assume if there is very heavy runtime, in warmer temps, possibly a chiller might be required. 

Now I am really confused why WC spindles are not more common place on heavy use RT's.  It could be because no maker has offered a lift and WC Spindle combo commercially available.  Most ww are not willing to spend the time it takes to make their own tools like MMe contributing to this thread, his efforts are beyond what I would be willing to do.

With the high tech New Wave RT with CNC precision fence and lift.... I would think they are the most likely candidate to add the last missing component, a few offerings of WC spindles w/ precision lift.

I do agree with a previous post, shapers are quite the bargain do provide the added power, but not the noise reduction (not an issue to everyone, but critical for others) and for fine detail work such as end joinery, the precision fence and lift makes so many tasks more user friendly.  I always felt shapers are the best bargain in ww machines, they are impressive, specially the GRizz machine previously linked.

 

[Mini Me]

This might be a bit long winded!!!

The manual table with lift I built literally took less than a day to build with two doing the work so it is not a big task at all. I would never encourage anyone to build the electronic version at least before we finish ours, I can see it being feasible for us to build the harnesses ready to plug into all the components but I haven't had that discussion with the others involved yet. It was always meant to be a total DIY project and apart from the electronics that is feasible but the electronics add a huge degree of difficulty even with the detailed documentation that has been made freely available.

The affordable CNC hobby industry has not been around for a long time and I guess that is one reason the idea has not transferred over. Another could be that commercial lifts for routers are a good money spinner for the manufacturers and they too have not had the CNC experience themselves so they stick to what they know. Another issue is the conservative WW user base (in general), I think it was about 2016 I began to wonder and ask questions and the idea took off from there. If I was to build a conventional manual table in Australia today with all new components it would cost the thick end of $2000 to do it properly and I think a manual table using a spindle kit would cost around $1200 but those figures are just a bit of guess work. That $2000 table comes with all the pitfalls and problems that RT's have always had, noise, dust control problems etc whereas the spindle table overcomes all those issues for less money.

I am one of those people who see a problem and start thinking about a solution and I have always been that way. For instance if I was using a manual table the first thing I would do is put DRO's on both the lift and the fence to control all measurements and then bits such as lock mitres could be a simple exercise of noting the settings that work and you could then very quickly use those settings in the future without the frustrations involved. The fence would have a central drive controlled by a screw arrangement, DRO's are so cheap these days I can't understand why they are not used on more machines such as TS's & RT's etc. At the very least I would scribe grid lines on the table top offset from the centre axis to measure the fence movement and making setting up stops far easier, why commercial plates don't have this feature is one of life's mysteries yet to be answered.

 

[luvmytoolz]

I am impressed these spindles only require a bucket of coolant and a pump.  I would assume if there is very heavy runtime, in warmer temps, possibly a chiller might be required. 

Depends on how extreme the heat can be, but generally I would still say no to a chiller/radiator, etc, just use a bigger bucket to hold more radiator coolant. Avoiding using any sort of fan assisted cooling will help keep things dust free and simple. In Melbourne we get some pretty warm days and I've never had a heat issue. The solid aluminium fuel tanks you can get off ebay are terrific for a coolant reservoir, a 10L case which isn't at all bulky is around $60 or so and the large surface area will help greatly with dissipating heat.

Now I am really confused why WC spindles are not more common place on heavy use RT's.  It could be because no maker has offered a lift and WC Spindle combo commercially available.  Most ww are not willing to spend the time it takes to make their own tools like MMe contributing to this thread, his efforts are beyond what I would be willing to do.

With the high tech New Wave RT with CNC precision fence and lift.... I would think they are the most likely candidate to add the last missing component, a few offerings of WC spindles w/ precision lift.

I think spindles and VFD's are still seen as some sort of industrial black magic, but vendors are starting to include them, Timbecon in Melb sells a RT with a spindle, but at a somewhat eye watering price.

Programming the VFD if required really is about the hardest part of working with spindles, but the settings info for most VFD's is easily found.

 

[Cheese]

I wonder how much quieter the water cooled spindle really is, Mafell claims their FM 1000 watt router motor is only 71 db (A).

[attachimg=1]

 

[WillB]

Some great responses...
Impressed in hot OZ weather, u still only need a bucket of coolant.  I would have suspected the heat would eventually rise above the desired set point.  I guess at some point, as the ambient temp rises, the run hours increase, the spindle hp is larger and the work load becomes greater...eventually more heat dissipation will be required at some point.  These chillers are being sold, so must be some application for them. 

MMe, I agree, in general the Desktop CNC is still developing, so most of those makers have not had the RnD time to make the jump yet to RT's.  Again, Next Wave is almost there, all they need to do is add a WC spindle, and they have the super high tech quiet RT we are discussing, so maybe soon in USA... maybe land of OZ is ahead of USA in this area. 

Wow, that Mafel at 71db...but its only 1000 watts, so on the mid size for a router, but nonetheless, this demonstrates router motors can be made quiet.  Of course, they did not mention the specifics, such as, at what distance that sound level is measured at, which matters a LOT, as sound falls off at the inverse of the square, i.e. every time you double the distance, the sound level drops 75%.  So could be misleading.  If really legit, this would have been ideal for the Shaper Origin, as an additional selling feature, as the user is right on top of the router, sometimes for long periods of time.  But I think Festool owns some, or all of Shaper Origin. 

 

[luvmytoolz]

I wonder how much quieter the water cooled spindle really is, Mafell claims their FM 1000 watt router motor is only 71 db (A).

Compared to any brushed or universal motor, spindles are orders of magnitude quieter, and barely make more than a very slightly high pitched hum, the fan in the VFD is usually louder than the spindle. In fact the dust extractor is what you'll hear the most aside from the wood being machined. You can run a spindle at full speed and whisper to someone a foot away from it and they would have no trouble hearing what you said.

When machining is when they make noise as do all routers, and that noise level also depends on your machining strategy, material used, and the type of cutter used. But, the spindle itself doesn't add any extra noise to the mix.

 

[WillB]

>  But, the spindle itself doesn't add any extra noise to the mix.

          I have heard WC spindles, yes, whisper quiet under no load.  So when the material is being cut by WC spindle, how much total sound reduction vs. the same scenario vs. with a router motor, or air cooled spindle?  I have seen this on YouTube videos, but the sound can be deceiving as its not alternated.  If the sound of cutting is so loud.... I am curious just how much benefit the whisper quiet WC spindle is providing.  I realize this is not simiple to quantify.... any input would be helpful...

 

[luvmytoolz]

>  But, the spindle itself doesn't add any extra noise to the mix.

          I have heard WC spindles, yes, whisper quiet under no load.  So when the material is being cut by WC spindle, how much total sound reduction vs. the same scenario vs. with a router motor, or air cooled spindle?  I have seen this on YouTube videos, but the sound can be deceiving as its not alternated.  If the sound of cutting is so loud.... I am curious just how much benefit the whisper quiet WC spindle is providing.  I realize this is not simiple to quantify.... any input would be helpful...

A brushed motor router adds very considerably to the total noise produced when machining, and you also don't get any quiet period inbetween machining, it's noise all the time once powered on. Conversely, a spindle lowers the total noise produced as it is so quiet itself, you only hear the cutter and/or the dust extractor when in use. Using decent quality spiral cutters can greatly reduce the noise further still.

An air cooled spindle on the other hand is definitely noisier simply because of the air flow, although still not approaching anything like the levels of a brushed motor.

 

[Mini Me]

My personal take on the WC spindle noise level is without user awareness it could nearly be called dangerous though I have not had one running with a big bit in it and of course when machining the noise is what it is. The fan noise on the VFD which is my all time favorite hate can be turned off or on those VFD's where it can't be a thermo switch can be used to turn it off until the temp rises. Most of the later ones now have inbuilt temp control to prevent the fan running constantly. I doubt a WC spindle is anywhere near 71db, my Clearvue is only 69db at the exhaust, I will do a sound level check on it tonight when the background noise is lower.

 

[Mini Me]

I did a sound level test tonight and the sound level rose 20db above the static background noise at full speed with no cutter in the spindle. Testing sound is a bit like rounding up 100 cats so take it for what is it but it is very quiet. The test was done right next to the table as any distance away it can't be heard.

 

[WillB]

thx for the test MM, so what was the dB reading?  at what distance did you take the reading? 
Does the size of the WC Spindle matter?  i.e. at 3KW, its louder than 2KW ?

 

[Mini Me]

The sound test was done with the meter on the edge of the tabletop, the total noise including background was about 50db IIRC. I doubt the size matters too much but CNC users could add more here. If I had tested it from further away it may not have registered on the meter because I can't hear it at any sort of distance from the table when still in the workshop.