OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!

[mino]

To re-answer the OP:

[member=69276]mickmick[/member]
I would suggest to add "in UK" to the post as it is UK-specific.

As for the answer:
Because Festool UK believes the UK customers prefer lower cost /by 40 GBP or so/ to having all three of the main collets.

Also I believe to make the OF1400 /originally/ the same cost bracket across the EU, Festool shipps 2 collects for all (former) EU markets. Imperial for UK and metric for non-UK. But two collects all the time. Over here the OF 1400 comes with two collets as well - the 8mm and the 12 mm ones.

I believe it is only in the US that 3 collets are provides in the /higher-price/ package.

...
The funny thing is that the metric system was implemented in a lot of countries due to being overrun by Napoleon.
...

Eh, it was the Germans who overran the French in 1870 ... and then agreed to adopt, or, to be precise, agree to the system, BECAUSE IT WAS PRACTICAL and definitely superior to the NON-STANDARD systems of the time. The Germans were looking to setup their own standard for the same reasons but once the war was over /so politics was out of the way/  there was nothing preventing a cooperative agreement.

The varios standards called, today, "Imperial" came to be only as a reaction to the SI effort. The "metrification" of the old "standard inch" in the 20th century was no accident either.

What many people do not know is that the SI systems are based on fundamental physics. Initially, it was the approximation of 1/40.000.000 of the Earth's circumference which was later redefined based on physical constants. But it was already conceived as a "universal" tool intentionally skipping human proportions as any kind of a reference.

Also, it was not born as "The French system". I was born on the ashes of an absolutist monarchy as "The Scientist's system". The French revolution just created the atmosphere where Science was sufficiently respected to be allowed to flourish over politics. This is why Germans went full-in on it. It just made practical sense.

ED: 1870, of course...  [embarassed]

 

[Coen]

It might have been different in Germany, but in NL it was the French that occupied our country that introduced it and after that our "own" king decided it should stay because it was superior.

 

[mino]

It might have been different in Germany, but in NL it was the French that occupied our country that introduced it and after that our "own" king decided it should stay because it was superior.

Ah, so you got "lucky" and had the "French" system, before it became the "SI" aka "Systéme Internationale".

Was not aware, that must have been only at a few places. Most accepted it only after the conferences in the late 1870s. Half a century later. Just one more piece into how extremely meritocratic the Netherlands' "merchant state" was and is still.

 

[Mini Me]

I must admit, since I got my first CNC machine many years ago, I have wondered why router manufacturers didn't standardize on ER20 collets instead of unique ones specific to their products. Could be a warranty concern with cheap crappy ones being used by the end user, or maybe purely profit. Or perhaps just wanting the ability to control the whole experience and therefore the expectations of the end users in maintaining a quality product?

ER20 across the board for 1/2" routers and ER11 for trimmers would be pretty darn useful though!

i have just finished building a router table using a CNC spindle and the ER20 collets with a VFD, way better than any router.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I must admit, since I got my first CNC machine many years ago, I have wondered why router manufacturers didn't standardize on ER20 collets instead of unique ones specific to their products. Could be a warranty concern with cheap crappy ones being used by the end user, or maybe purely profit. Or perhaps just wanting the ability to control the whole experience and therefore the expectations of the end users in maintaining a quality product?

ER20 across the board for 1/2" routers and ER11 for trimmers would be pretty darn useful though!

I would say that it is purely about cost, which translates to profit for them. If they keep things proprietary, the odds of you buying a new collet directly from them increases dramatically.
Certainly, there are costs involved in making spare parts of all kinds, as far as making them available, etc. But, there is no way that in a Milwaukee router that sells for $225, the collet cost is that high in proportion.

The ER type would be a great way to make this more universal, but same as battery platforms, that is not in the best interest of the manufacturers.
Obviously router collets are not the profit potential of batteries, because the volume has to be far lower, but it is probably the only "part" that most people would ever replace.

At least in the US, batteries are the profit thing. The cost of batteries as spare parts is so high that the tool is effectively free. If you buy 2 batteries, the cost is very close to the total cost of the whole set, which includes the tool and charger. (at least with drills/drivers) Sometimes it's even less when there are specials/sales. You can potentially buy a new drill for less than the cost of batteries separately.

 

[Coen]

Well, a lot of smaller tool companies are now switching from proprietary battery to Metabo / Bosch / Makita battery. So there is a bit of standardization going on there. But still all the big brands kept their own system.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Well, a lot of smaller tool companies are now switching from proprietary battery to Metabo / Bosch / Makita battery. So there is a bit of standardization going on there. But still all the big brands kept their own system.

I have heard that, but it's a European thing. In the US about all you can do is use adapters. There are a few companies that make adapters to use some batteries with other brands of tools. As far as I have seen though, you still need the correct charger. You can't charge with an adapter installed.

 

[mino]

I have heard that, but it's a European thing. In the US about all you can do is use adapters. There are a few companies that make adapters to use some batteries with other brands of tools. As far as I have seen though, you still need the correct charger. You can't charge with an adapter installed.

Yep, but the "smaller tool companies" thing is actually what is "The European Thing" here.

What Coen meant are those small /as in "TSO small"/ companies which operate in the mid-to-high end market and produce one or only a few tool types on which they specialize. For those partnering with some big brand is a no-brainer. Metabo pioneered this with their battery aliance and the other big folks reacted to align.

I do not believe there are such small companies /anymore/ in the US. In this context, someone like Mafell or Fein would be considered "big" ...

 

[Bertotti]

It's not about is being different, but about it being inferior. Every year way more patients
are poisoned by their doctor under the inperial measurements system because it's too complicated.

I would actually disagree quite strongly on this, I consider it more than reasonable for any suitably trained professional to perform their job in an adequate fashion, if that requires using a calculator on occasion, or simply remembering simple common conversions, then that is the very minimum they should be able to do competently.

The problem I see, is that no matter how much you dumb down anything to make it idiot proof, they'll simply go ahead and invent a better idiot.

Holding people to a higher standard is what should be happening.

This for sure, my industry is know for getting employees of less than stellar intelligence. Some are ignorant, never been taught, some are stupid, incapable of learning. I use imperial for every thing I do, it isn’t rocket science but for the occasional stupid person I will use metric because it is easier to teach in some cases yet I still get people who can’t even grasp that.

I stick with imperial 95% of the time heck even the equipment I work on is a mix or imperial and or metric. That drives me nuts but for a lot of our engineers it is just another step in the specifications they use to determines items needed for a specific torque shear strength size. Etc….

Not sure what the big deal is if you do t want imperial in your country just don’t allow it. I remember being told of a third measuring system beside meteoric and imperial that died off but I can’t remember what it was. 

Anywho I work with what’s needed that’s all.

 

[luvmytoolz]

This for sure, my industry is know for getting employees of less than stellar intelligence. Some are ignorant, never been taught, some are stupid, incapable of learning. I use imperial for every thing I do, it isn’t rocket science but for the occasional stupid person I will use metric because it is easier to teach in some cases yet I still get people who can’t even grasp that.

I stick with imperial 95% of the time heck even the equipment I work on is a mix or imperial and or metric. That drives me nuts but for a lot of our engineers it is just another step in the specifications they use to determines items needed for a specific torque shear strength size. Etc….

Not sure what the big deal is if you do t want imperial in your country just don’t allow it. I remember being told of a third measuring system beside meteoric and imperial that died off but I can’t remember what it was. 

Anywho I work with what’s needed that’s all.

I've never understood the difficulty some people have converting or using metric/imperial, I like to use metric primarily, but I'm often guilty of mixing the two, for example in OZ most people would refer to sheet goods as 8' x 4' instead of 2440 x 1220 but give the thickness in mm. If you've done the conversion more than once, surely it's not too hard to remember that 3/4" is roughly 19mm, 1/2" is 12.7mm, etc. It's an indication of the sad state of education if grown a** people can't perform a simple calculation as part of their job I reckon.

 

[Spandex]

Yes, it's possible to do a few calculations to convert between the two, and most people are perfectly capable of doing so if required. But it's also understandable that even people capable of doing those calculations might resent having to do so, and resent the possibility for errors that this additional step might introduce.

I understand the desire to defend the measurement system you use, but the reality is that metric is much more simple to use, without reducing the accuracy in order to achieve that simplicity. It is the better system. That's not to say everyone who uses imperial (or a mixture of the two) is a fool, but there's no question which would be the most sensible choice if everyone was starting from scratch.

I say this as a Brit who uses a mixture of both systems. But as much as I'm used to ordering a pint, or thinking in miles or mph when driving, I would still see it as progress if we were to go fully metric. Although as long as some parts of the population insist on entwining the use of imperial measurements with an old-fashioned notion of patriotism, I doubt there's much chance of that happening here.

 

[luvmytoolz]

Everything I cut, mark, create, machine, is in metric which is my preference, but the importance I think is being able to be fluent in both when needed, after all it's not rocket science, or even barely taxing on the brain.

Funnily enough, for reasons I didn't really comprehend, a person I did a lot of work for ran a metal fabrication business here in OZ, and everything they do is in imperial, and he explained that all the sizes and thicknesses of the raw steel sheets/rods/bars, etc are all done to imperial for some reason that makes it all cohesive, but wouldn't quite work with metric (due to rounding issues?).

I don't know if it's changed since then, but certainly in his industry they all used imperial.

 

[jeh]

While not a cheap solution consider the Mafell DuoDoweler if you do not have a Domino because it does what a Domino does, but like everything there are advantages/disadvantages for both. There is debate as to which is better at what it does, but if strength is your only consideration dowels win. The major advantage of the LR32 is the ease of setup and accuracy with minimal fuss. You do have to purchase a template for doing shelf pin holes and two bits, but it is very easy to use.

I had a Domino and LR32 kit that I used for several years. After seeing the DuoDoweler I bought one and both of the templates (long and short) and have never regretted selling the Domino and the LR32. Dollar wise there is not much of a difference and Mafell uses the same Systainers.

 

[Coen]

Afaik Mafell uses the T-Loc Systainers, not the Sys3, so superior in that aspect.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Afaik Mafell uses the T-Loc Systainers, not the Sys3, so superior in that aspect.

I saw that coming a hundred miles (60.9km) away

 

[woodbutcherbower]

Afaik Mafell uses the T-Loc Systainers, not the Sys3, so superior in that aspect.

I saw that coming a hundred miles (60.9km) away

It’s 160.9km, CRG ………

You just lost your company a coupla hundred million dollars on the highway paving contract you just won because you were a third of the price of all the other bidders.

[big grin]

 

[MikeGE]

It’s 160.9km, CRG ………

You just lost your company a coupla hundred million dollars on the highway paving contract you just won because you were a third of the price of all the other bidders.

[big grin]

Ha ha ha!!!  This almost happened a couple of years ago here when a German contractor bid on a U.S. contract to rebuild a perimeter road at a small military installation.  All of the measurements in the request for bids were imperial, but the contractor didn't notice the units and bid on KM instead of Miles.  The error was discovered during the cost evaluation because it was not realistic.  The contractor was not asked to correct the proposal and was disqualified.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

That's just bad typing. I knew it well enough to use the .9 instead of rounding up.

 

[Mini Me]

for example in OZ most people would refer to sheet goods as 8' x 4' instead of 2440 x 1220 but give the thickness in mm. If you've done the conversion more than once, surely it's not too hard to remember that 3/4" is roughly 19mm, 1/2" is 12.7mm, etc. It's an indication of the sad state of education if grown a** people can't perform a simple calculation as part of their job I reckon.

I can't remember when I last specified a sheet in imperial and I grew up in Oz using imperial at school. I can understand some just don't do enough work in metric because the more you do the more you think in metric, it is just like learning another language. I also never convert because that is another crutch, plan in the system measurement you use and work in it whether that be imperial or metric and no conversion is required.

 

[Coen]

Afaik Mafell uses the T-Loc Systainers, not the Sys3, so superior in that aspect.

I saw that coming a hundred miles (60.9km) away

Muhahaha, according to some in this thread you are now considered "a better idiot"  [big grin] (note; not my words!!)

But really, that Sys3 is bad in so many ways...
Even with a 137 the front handle won't sit flush if connected to a previous generation T-Loc below it because of the slightly bigger T.

It’s 160.9km, CRG ………

You just lost your company a coupla hundred million dollars on the highway paving contract you just won because you were a third of the price of all the other bidders.

[big grin]

Ha ha ha!!!  This almost happened a couple of years ago here when a German contractor bid on a U.S. contract to rebuild a perimeter road at a small military installation.  All of the measurements in the request for bids were imperial, but the contractor didn't notice the units and bid on KM instead of Miles.  The error was discovered during the cost evaluation because it was not realistic.  The contractor was not asked to correct the proposal and was disqualified.

So the US probably paid more because half the local businesses probably didn't even care to bid on a contract with weird units.