Opinions & Advice on Exterior Door Renovation

[jonny round boy]

This is the front door on our house. I think it might be original to the house (making it around 120 years old) but I'm not certain of that. We were going to replace the entire door & frame (along with the windows) but we simply can't afford to do that now, so we've decided that we need to renovate it instead, and quite soon (I don't think it would survive another winter). Here's how it is now:

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The joints have failed and it has sagged; the paint is flaking & peeling, and water has been getting in in places, but the timber itself is sound, with no rot evident anywhere (which amazes me, frankly!). Additionally, the door is very badly warped, but the door frame has been made to suit so despite this it fits perfectly against the stops all round.

The inside face had been covered with hardboard at some point (probably in the 50's, that was very popular then!):

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I ripped this off yesterday, to find this:

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The large moulding has been removed to allow the hardboard to sit flat. The finish under the hardboard is a horrid sticky brown 'goo' (I think it's called scumble?) which we've found on basically every wooden surface in the entire house, and which I hate. Around the edges are 5 or 6 layers of paint; on the outside, probably 4 layers.

In this picture, you can see how much the door has sagged:

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Luckily, no-one has ever trimmed the bottom edge to compensate for this, so it shouldn't cause a problem to square it up again.

What I want to do is take the door apart & re-glue it, replacing the top panels with glazing. I think it would look better with smaller beading to these glazed panels rather than the big (roughly 2 1/2") moulding that's there now. I'll be keeping the big beading to the bottom panel, and using the beading from the top panels to replace the moulding that's missing from the bottom pane on the inside face.

Now to my questions:

I need to strip the old paint/scumble inside & out, and dismantle the door. I think the easiest method would be to have it dipped, as stripping it manually would be very time consuming, plus it's almost certainly got a lot of lead in the paint. Should I do this before dismantling it, or take it apart & then dip the individual components? There is a lot of paint build-up in the gaps, and I'm concerned that dipping it assembled won't get that out. On the other hand I don't know what the implications are of dipping the components individually (if there are any?).

Since the door is warped, and the frame made to suit, is there a danger that pulling it apart & re-gluing it will change the degree of warp?

What would be the best adhesive to use to re-glue it? Exterior PVA? Polyurethane? Something else?

I've never done this before; what other pitfalls are there I need to look out for?

Thanks,

Jonathan

 

[Kev]

I don't have anything to offer you other that to wish you luck with that.

I'm surprised that it's cost effective to go down the path of dismantling, stripping, reassembly and refinishing instead of a new door!

 

[jonny round boy]

I'm surprised that it's cost effective to go down the path of dismantling, stripping, reassembly and refinishing instead of a new door!

If I was paying someone else to do it, it probably wouldn't be. But since I have the time to do it myself, the only real cost to me is the dipping, which is around £20-£30. All other costs (paint, new hardware, etc) would be the same for a new door. It's not a standard size, so getting a good quality one made would probably cost £500+. Then I'd have to basically re-build the frame to suit the new (now-warped) door.

 

[Nikko]

I've done a few of these before when you have the door dipped  the  glue will fail as it is probably hot animal glue due to the age  so the door should come apart with minimal fuss. You can then alter it re-glue and assemble just make sure the timber is properly dry before re-assembly

 

[AlexThePalex]

If you want to strip it bare I think it's easiest to do disassembled. But what is this "dipping" exactly you talk about?

 

[jonny round boy]

If you want to strip it bare I think it's easiest to do disassembled. But what is this "dipping" exactly you talk about?

Dipping is putting the door in a large vat of caustic paint stripper. It's left in until all the paint is softened & then it's pressure washed, neutralised, and then dried.

 

[Nikko]

With dipping they submerge the whole door in a chemical stripping agent  leave it a few hours then pressure wash it off its a lot safer than doing it yourself because of the lead in the old paint is very harmful

 

[Nikko]

Sorry jonny round boy we must of posted at the same time

 

[Deansocial]

This looks a good excuse for a Dom xl  [tongue]

 

[leakyroof]

Hmm, is the door sealing well against wind/drafts even in its present condition?  The interior of the door looks like very old varnish or possibly shellac on top of old varnish that had failed earlier and someone tried to brighten up the look of the faded varnish.  You can easily wipe any shellac off with alcohol as a test to see if it's there.
I'm not sure you're going to get the results you want with the disassembly, dipping, and reassembly of the door.  Exactly how BAD are the joints.  Could you pin the old tenons with dowels to tighten up the old M/T joints?

If major parts have warped, simply taking the door apart may get you further away from square and flat before you ever try to reassemble the door. Picture how hard it would be to coax old wood back into alignment at the clamping stage of the job if it sprang off in an unexpected direction during disassembly. And, once assembled, if you have some tension or stress in that wood, it could warp the door in a new direction that allows it to NOT fit against the stops like you presently have.
  So, I'm for taking the door off its hinges, putting it on supports/saw horses, and stripping it as an assembled unit. 
If you already own a Festool CT type HEPA dust extractor, then I wouldn't worry about lead dust esp. if you're working outside and take precautions with a rated respirator while you're sanding or using a chemical stripper.
  This way, you can always put the door back on its hinges at the end of the day, and you know it already fits and locks up as well.

 

[farms100]

With that much sag I'd check out the hinge plates and frame, and see what is happening there.

My first inclination is to build a new door, after all you have all those nifty tools.   The raised panels are simply done either on router table or table saw. The M+T joints are not cope and sticked, so no need to  buy a shaper cutter. Other than shop time the only day you really have to have no entry door is during installation.

if you are dead set on using the old door Dip it and see what happens, its not a museum grade piece of furniture. . it might take a week or more depending on the backlog, you also might get back a stack of parts needing to be reglued.

I'd rather spend 3-4 days building a new one than a day or more sanding paint, particularly if it has lead.

 

[jonny round boy]

Bit of an update on this, and a new question:

Decided in the end that renovating the door was too much work, especially considering the fact that I'd have to make a temporary door to replace the old one whilst I worked on it.

In the end, I purchased a door of the nearest standard size, and made a new frame to suit. It's now all painted & finished, and ready to fit (except I'm still waiting on the glazing tape in order to fit the double-glazed panels):

[attachimg=1]

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As you can see, the overall frame is quite high (I'm glad I never bothered re-boarding the ceiling, as it just about fits up between the joists!). The glazing is temporarily held in with mod blocks.

Now onto my question. The old door frame is sealed to the stonework with traditional mastic (sand, oil, etc.). Should I use the same to seal the new one in, or use a modern silicone sealant? I'm sure I could use either, but wondered what people's preferences were, and why?

Jonathan

 

[woodguy7]

Jonny, how high up is that bottom hinge ?  It looks really high.  I normally have the bottom of that hinge at 200mm & the top of the top hinge at 150mm.  Also, watch the glazing tape.  If its the foam stuff then its not waterproof.  The exposed edge needs to be sealed with a clear silicone.
I normally use silicone to seal around the door frame but not until the frame has been finished with paint or preserver as i am sure you know what happens if you try to paint over silicone.
Have you got any seals in your stops, like aquatic 21 ?

 

[Deansocial]

I've alway known hinges to be 6 and 9

 

[jonny round boy]

Woodguy,

Bottom hinge is 280mm up, top hinge is 200mm down.

Door & frame are already finished with Dulux Weathershield Aquatech 3 part system (preservative basecoat+, undercoat, topcoat). The stone is painted, and will be repainted once the door is fitted. The door & frame will get an additional (third) topcoat once fitted.

Door frame has aquamac AQ21 seals built in.

Thanks for the heads-up about the glazing tape - I assumed it would be fully sealed. If it isn't, and it needs siliconing, then what's the advantage over just siliconing the glass in?

In a joinery shop I worked in 10+ years ago, we used to use glazing tape (that's why I bought some for this job) but we never sealed it afterwards...

 

[woodguy7]

Dean, you need to metric up 

I too used to used the glazing tape quite the thing until a friend pointed out that its not waterproof & a large window manufacturer uses the same tape & always puts a small bead of clear silicone over it.  Seems crazy to me though.  You do get glazing silicone but I'm not keen on that.  You push the glass in till it squidges out but thens its a pain to trim off afterwards.

 

[tiralie]

You do get glazing silicone but I'm not keen on that.  You push the glass in till it squidges out but thens its a pain to trim off afterwards.

I really like glazing silicone and used it on the "wall of windows" project.
It might be overkill as it's structural but I didn't find it that much of a pain to trim.
In any event I would definitely seal the tape with silicone or use some silicone glazing for an exterior door. Which way does it face (north, south etc.)? Does it see a lot of weather? It's hard to tell from the old door.
Tim

 

[Deansocial]

Do not use glazing silicone!! It is for single glazing and will break down double glazed units.

Silicone is the only way to seal a glass unit in properly.

As for silicone being a pain I use Bohemia glass cleaner and a rubber silicone tool. Just spray it on and take the excess off.

150mm 225mm blah blah metric blah [tongue]

 

[tiralie]

If you have cheap DB units don't use silicone glazing.
Most double glazed units have a silver foil(or tape) covering round the outsides, thus preventing contact between these sealants.
Silicone glazing is fine to use on a double glazed unit.
Tim

 

[Deansocial]

I would say 50% are taped. Still wouldn't use glazing silicone if there is a potential risk of unit break down when the is silicone that can be used. Why risk it