Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions

[Klemm]

This is strange - following this thread seems TSO supplied systems haven't had issues but from Axminister directly they have. Is there extra effort or additional QC steps taken to assure TSO gets good product?

I can’t answer this personally. Would seem odd if that was the case though..

[member=70391]Jruks[/member] – in response to your question about any “extra effort” TSO puts into the AXMINSTER products we ship: normally we do not open the products we receive from AXMINSTER before shipping them to our customers. The exception involves the Parf Guide (original) and Parf Guide Mark 2 where, until recently, we added a Clamping Collar to the shipment.

We have received one (1) report of questionable PGS Mark 2 Parf Stick rule accuracy and we are subjecting that part to lab analysis. In other words, TSO has not seen any Parf Stick difficulties rising to the level of even 1% of Mark 2 shipments.

The intentional very tight fits of the Parf Guide System do result in joining parts requiring some manual pushing to go together the first time or two until the mating surfaces have knocked down any interfering high spots.

We have seen a missing part report here or there but nothing pointing to broader quality issues. After all, a customer problem creates an equal or greater TSO internal workload. So, we are doubly vigilant about all aspects of quality. Reports on the FOG also get our attention and send us checking our own performance.

Hans

 

[Jruks]

[member=59331]TSO Products[/member] it wasn’t my question, I was just saying I didn’t know the answer; but I’m glad I ordered through you guys anyway!

This is strange - following this thread seems TSO supplied systems haven't had issues but from Axminister directly they have. Is there extra effort or additional QC steps taken to assure TSO gets good product?

I can’t answer this personally. Would seem odd if that was the case though..

[member=70391]Jruks[/member] – in response to your question about any “extra effort” TSO puts into the AXMINSTER products we ship: normally we do not open the products we receive from AXMINSTER before shipping them to our customers. The exception involves the Parf Guide (original) and Parf Guide Mark 2 where, until recently, we added a Clamping Collar to the shipment.

We have received one (1) report of questionable PGS Mark 2 Parf Stick rule accuracy and we are subjecting that part to lab analysis. In other words, TSO has not seen any Parf Stick difficulties rising to the level of even 1% of Mark 2 shipments.

The intentional very tight fits of the Parf Guide System do result in joining parts requiring some manual pushing to go together the first time or two until the mating surfaces have knocked down any interfering high spots.

We have seen a missing part report here or there but nothing pointing to broader quality issues. After all, a customer problem creates an equal or greater TSO internal workload. So, we are doubly vigilant about all aspects of quality. Reports on the FOG also get our attention and send us checking our own performance.

Hans

 

[RedDog]

My Mark 1 system was waiting for me when I got home yesterday. Did some quick checks and it seems fine to me. Sticks are drilled for Mk1 and Mk2. Pins are Mark 2 and fit either. Packaging was great, a tube in a box. Absolutely no issues there. Thanks TSO.

 

[rmwarren]

[member=59331]TSO Products[/member]

I just got around to checking the second set of Mk2 sticks, this time using some m6 precision pins I had on hand:

[attachimg=1]

Inserted pins with the bevel up in holes @ positions 0/2/4/32 (center) & 7 using washers underneath the sticks to ensure that the pins were fully seated past the slightly rounded ends:

[attachimg=2]

The final holes @ 10/32/48 did not line up, they were off around .5mm, and you can see the edge of the sticks also didn't line up:

[attachimg=3]

I then went back and attempted to feel whether inserting the pins @ 32 (center) and 7 was causing the sticks to flex slightly, and they were. As far as I can tell the misalignment appears to be in the form of a gradual curve in one/both sticks. I haven't attempted to drill holes and check the alignment but based on what I observe it appears the result would be a line of holes slightly out of true.

As a check I inserted a pin @ 0 and the righthand 48, then attempted to insert one in 6. it would not go in unless I pushed the top stick down slightly (relative to the text) and the misalignment of the 2 holes was smaller than the photo above. This seems to be consistent with the results I got using the other method, i.e. it was about half the amount and in the opposite direction. Here's a sketch attempting to illustrate this:

[attachimg=4]

The sticks themselves are not straight when checked using the woodpeckers 4' straightedge, each has a slight bow in the center of around .5mm also. This bow was reversed between the 2 sticks, one bowing up and one down relative to the printed text.

Edit: The errors I am measuring differ from the first set to the second set. The errors in the first set appear to be the distance between holes, I didn't check whether they were along a straight line. My results seem consistent between the original set of sticks and the set Axminster sent me as replacements. This causes me to question whether I am somehow coming up with skewed results due to operator error?

I'm also not sure if I'm simply overthinking this or not relative to expectations of the precision of the sticks?

Hans, I guess I'll send you both sets to let you try to verify this.

RMW

 

[dicktill]

[member=59331]TSO Products[/member]

I just got around to checking the second set of Mk2 sticks, this time using some m6 precision pins I had on hand:

Inserted pins with the bevel up in holes @ positions 0/2/4/32 (center) & 7 using washers underneath the sticks to ensure that the pins were fully seated past the slightly rounded ends:

[attachimg=2]

The final holes @ 10/32/48 did not line up, they were off around .5mm, and you can see the edge of the sticks also didn't line up:

I then went back and attempted to feel whether inserting the pins @ 32 (center) and 7 was causing the sticks to flex slightly, and they were. As far as I can tell the misalignment appears to be in the form of a gradual curve in one/both sticks. I haven't attempted to drill holes and check the alignment but based on what I observe it appears the result would be a line of holes slightly out of true.

As a check I inserted a pin @ 0 and the righthand 48, then attempted to insert one in 6. it would not go in unless I pushed the top stick down slightly (relative to the text) and the misalignment of the 2 holes was smaller than the photo above. This seems to be consistent with the results I got using the other method, i.e. it was about half the amount and in the opposite direction. Here's a sketch attempting to illustrate this:

The sticks themselves are not straight when checked using the woodpeckers 4' straightedge, each has a slight bow in the center of around .5mm also. This bow was reversed between the 2 sticks, one bowing up and one down relative to the printed text.

Edit: The errors I am measuring differ from the first set to the second set. The errors in the first set appear to be the distance between holes, I didn't check whether they were along a straight line. My results seem consistent between the original set of sticks and the set Axminster sent me as replacements. This causes me to question whether I am somehow coming up with skewed results due to operator error?

I'm also not sure if I'm simply overthinking this or not relative to expectations of the precision of the sticks?

Hans, I guess I'll send you both sets to let you try to verify this.

RMW

Is it possible that each hole is drilled/punched/whatever relative to the (crooked) edge of the rule rather than in a straight line?

BTW, what a beautiful bench! If I had that, I'd be reluctant to do any work on it.  : )

 

[rmwarren]

[member=59331]TSO Products[/member]

I just got around to checking the second set of Mk2 sticks, this time using some m6 precision pins I had on hand:

Inserted pins with the bevel up in holes @ positions 0/2/4/32 (center) & 7 using washers underneath the sticks to ensure that the pins were fully seated past the slightly rounded ends:

[attachimg=2]

The final holes @ 10/32/48 did not line up, they were off around .5mm, and you can see the edge of the sticks also didn't line up:

I then went back and attempted to feel whether inserting the pins @ 32 (center) and 7 was causing the sticks to flex slightly, and they were. As far as I can tell the misalignment appears to be in the form of a gradual curve in one/both sticks. I haven't attempted to drill holes and check the alignment but based on what I observe it appears the result would be a line of holes slightly out of true.

As a check I inserted a pin @ 0 and the righthand 48, then attempted to insert one in 6. it would not go in unless I pushed the top stick down slightly (relative to the text) and the misalignment of the 2 holes was smaller than the photo above. This seems to be consistent with the results I got using the other method, i.e. it was about half the amount and in the opposite direction. Here's a sketch attempting to illustrate this:

The sticks themselves are not straight when checked using the woodpeckers 4' straightedge, each has a slight bow in the center of around .5mm also. This bow was reversed between the 2 sticks, one bowing up and one down relative to the printed text.

Edit: The errors I am measuring differ from the first set to the second set. The errors in the first set appear to be the distance between holes, I didn't check whether they were along a straight line. My results seem consistent between the original set of sticks and the set Axminster sent me as replacements. This causes me to question whether I am somehow coming up with skewed results due to operator error?

I'm also not sure if I'm simply overthinking this or not relative to expectations of the precision of the sticks?

Hans, I guess I'll send you both sets to let you try to verify this.

RMW

Is it possible that each hole is drilled/punched/whatever relative to the (crooked) edge of the rule rather than in a straight line?

BTW, what a beautiful bench! If I had that, I'd be reluctant to do any work on it.  : )

Dick, I think it's possible but I'm turning this over to the pro's, I've reached the limit of my precision-machinist Jui Jitsu...  [big grin]

Thanks, that work area is in my inside office/workroom. It only sees light duty for stuff like leatherwork, electronics, etc. Some Brazillian cherry T&G flooring I got cheap, trimmed and laminated, hard as a rock. The goofy thing is due to being at the shore (very small parcels of land, 6KSF in our case) I have 3X the SF inside that I do in the outdoor shop. 

RMW

 

[jkc_WA]

I am new to the FOG forums but have been following from a distance for bit. I was particularly interested in this thread since I just received this week a Parf Guide Mark II. Some of the comments had me a little concerned about the manufacturing process and quality checks. Now that I have had a chance to unpack the guide and examine the contents (unfortunately I have not had time to put them to good use!), I wanted to share my experience and the condition of the items.

First off, I ordered from Axminster and had them deliver to the states. The package was ordered on a Thursday and arrived the following Monday. So that was quite a nice surprise to be honest. I was prepared to wait a week or so. The package was in perfect condition and the contents were tightly packed with foam and in perfect condition.

When I took the rules out and laid them on top of one another, carefully aligning the sides of the rules the holes did not line up perfectly. But when I inserted the 6mm joining screw at hole zero:

[attachimg=1]

and then inserted the long-spigot drill guide into the various holes along the rules, they were all perfectly aligned.

[attachimg=2]

(the above photo shows that there appears to be a circle printed or etched onto the rule where the 6mm hole was to be located)

Hole 7:

[attachimg=3]

Hole "12" (end of rule):

[attachimg=4]

As you can see in the above photo, the rules themselves don't perfectly aline. But the holes do and that is the most important part.

I'm including one more of the logo if that is important to verify the batch as some have indicated.

[attachimg=5]

Perhaps this will be redundant in which case I trust the moderators will do their jobs and remove it. I wanted to add another data point to show what I received and in what condition it arrived. I am quite pleased and am looking forward to this weekend so I can put them to their proper use.

 

[solyxius1]

[member=70511]jkc_WA[/member] so far so good

However, before you go ahead with your production holes, I'd suggest performing some of the tests in the previous posts above. At the moment your tests show the holes in the rules are consistent lengthwise only. I am interested to see if your holes are "straight" as well on both rules.

 

[jkc_WA]

[member=70294]Solly1[/member] As a quick check, I flipped one rule over so the logo'd sides were facing. No variation in holes that I could tell. inserted the screw in one side and the longer drill guide in the other. Then clamped them down and was able to register the long drill guide in all the holes. A visual inspection showed them to be aligned as well (some of your pics it was clear from just the photos with no need to measure).

 

[solyxius1]

[member=70511]jkc_WA[/member] good signs, please report back with the straight edge test once you complete a row of 20mm holes, hope it all remains straight.

 

[Mike Goetzke]

[member=70511]jkc_WA[/member]

Glad you had good luck with your rules.

I have had small issues with the hole finishing requiring some cleanup of the bore and chamfer so I looked closely at your first & last photos of post #169. Sure looks like they are doing something to remove the rolled over material I had at the chamfers on mine. If you look around holes 9, 32, and 48 on these photos almost looks like the cleanup tool was a little off center. The chamfer footprint looks oblong - doesn't seem to be from an optical illusion. This tells me they are possibly cleaning up the chamfers. I'm not in front of your rules but that mark around hole #2 almost looks like a mis-hit of the chamfer cleanup tool (too perfectly circular in shape to do by hand)?

Mike

 

[solyxius1]

[member=4518]Mike Goetzke[/member] good pick up, it does indeed look like all of the holes in jkc_wa's photos are consistently off centre and elongated in the north east direction and a deeper chamfer depth.

 

[Michael Kellough]

[member=70511]jkc_WA[/member]  looking at your last photo showing the mismatch of the scales, looks like there is an extra increment in the lower scale over the course of just 80 mm. Could you stand the upper rule on edge on top of the lower to avoid parallax error?

If the rules are matched at the first increment how far off are they at the far end?

 

[jkc_WA]

I thought the holes were oblong as well and wondered about cleanup. It really is hard to tell, even when holding them, but if you feel along them it is clear that the holes are not oblong. The discoloration that makes them appear longer is the remains of a circle that appears to have been printed or painted on the rules prior to machining them. The holes are indeed smooth and round, and there are no burrs or rolled edges. Very tidy.

I'm not at home now but will look at the scales and report back re: Michael Kellough's question later.

 

[jayshahu]

I finally got a hold of my PARF Guide Mark 2 and tested the rulers for alignment and holes being co linear.

1) There was an alignment problem and the holes were  not co linear.

I sent an email to Axminster and they sent me  new set of rulers which are co linear and aligned with each other

But now I discovered a new problem. My 20 mm cutter has a bent shaft. When I tried to drill a 20 mm hole the entire work piece vibrates.

Does anyone has this problem?

 

[Klemm]

- as you may know TSO has sold a great many Parf Guides, Original and Mark 2. We have had ZERO calls on Dill Bit vibration due to bent shaft or any other reason,
Have you isolated the problem to a bent shaft? - if so request a replacement from your dealer.
If the shaft is straight and the tip does not show measurable run-out, you might take another look at your CentroTec engagement with your Drill quick-disconnect chuck. It is possible to insert the bit only partially into the FESTOOL Chuck without it being obvious - thus causing wobble and vibration.

Hans

 

[jayshahu]

Yes. Pls see the attached picture. The shank which goes into the chuck is bent . It is quite a bit off at the very top of the shank. Depending on how far you put the shank into the chuck the wobble becomes pronounced or subdued.

Axminster was very prompt in fixing the rulers. I have reached out to them already for the bit .

Will update once I hear back from them.

 

[ColossusX]

Any idea when TSO or Axminster will get the Mk 2 back in stock?

 

[Jruks]

Just got finished drilling about 200 holes (x2 if you count the 3mm) over the last 2 days... system works very well but damn I wish I had a Festool drill with removable chuck.

The stop collar shipping on mark 2 is still garbage. It stripped and fell off about 2/3 of the way through and I just had to keep the bit attached in my drill chick.

[member=59331]TSO Products[/member] I bought from you guys but think you guys should go back to including your own steel stop collar if possible like you did with mark 1. The one included in aluminum is not durable at all over more than 1 MFT table worth of holes. The rest of the kit is solid though.

I haven’t tested the layout everywhere but checked a few spots across the table and seems good. There was only one column I found with a small rocking between 3 dogs. It wasn’t more than 1mm but I didn’t break out the deeer gauges to check. Other columns seemed fine so not sure what happened with that column but it’s not one I plan to use for cross cutting anyway. Will do more testing next weekend.

Overall very happy though.

 

[Klemm]

Quote:
[member=59331]TSO Products[/member] I bought from you guys but think you guys should go back to including your own steel stop collar if possible like you did with mark 1. The one included in aluminum is not durable at all over more than 1 MFT table worth of holes. The rest of the kit is solid though.

[member=70391]Jruks[/member] – we really appreciate your comments about the Stop Collar. The Clamping Collar we have added for a time while AXMINSTER was still supplying the steel set screw version solved the problem. The cost to us was painfully high for two reasons: the high cost of supplying a US made Stainless Steel Clamping Collar, inbound shipping, receiving, then picking and opening the Parf Guide tubes to include the Clamping collar and an explanatory notice all added up. Before we could even overpack the PGS and return it to the warehouse shelf.
You can see how labor- and  transaction cost-intensive some harmless looking items actually turn out to be.
I will be in England later this month and meet with Axminster. I will take this matter up with them again. – thanks for your feedback!
Hans