Please help the new guy pick a saw

[seandoh]

I am totally new to woodworking and about to purchase my first serious tool - a shop saw!  Lotsa forum posts have told me that a table saw is the heart of one's shop and I believe that.  What I wonder though, is does it have to be a true table saw or can I manage with a TS 55 and outfitted MFT3? 
The majority of my work will be hobby level furniture building, restoration and such. For the Misses, I will be building shelving, outdoor furniture and restoring her garage sale finds, for myself I will be constructing workbenches and storage solutions for my garage/shop, and hopefully expanding the project list as the skills come. That last part tells most of the story, I (like many, I have come to find out) am confined to one stall of a two car garage, so space is an issue.  Also, I live 300 miles from the nearest lumber/wood store, so most of my stock will be larger cuts to minimize the shipping costs.  In my untrained mind, I see a lot of ripping down sheet goods and cross cutting in the future.
I am currently considering an entry level hybrid table saw (110 is my only option as of now) or the Festool route.  I know that sooner or later the TS 55 will be part of the arsenal, I am looking to the group to justify it being my first edition.  I have seen many YouTube videos claiming that the TS 55 can replace the table saw for most functions, what I am wondering is does this versatility apply to the beginner?

I would appreciate any suggestions supporting either choice, or any other options I should look into.

Thanks, I cannot wait to one day be an actual "owner" in this forum and not just a lurker.

 

[Gwerner]

I have lost count of how many posts I've read about the track saw versus table saw debate. I know there have been a lot of people who have ditched their table saws for a track saw and are perfectly happy. I personally don't know if I could do without my table saw. Not yet anyway.

With that said, since you are just starting out, I would probably start out with the track saw and work with it until you determine if it is limiting your capabilities. I don't see myself working without a table saw, but that is likely because I've been using one for 30 years and only bought my track saw last year, and I'm a creature of habit.

Breaking down a full sheet of plywood on a table saw does indeed suck, so I would recommend starting with the track saw and MFT and go from there.

 

[MrToolJunkie]

I think that this is a good choice and you can do a lot of work with the TS saws and MFT. I would also suggest a vacuum or buy the dust bag for the saw for proper DC. If you are going to process a lot of solid timber then I might suggest the TS75 instead of the 55 for bigger capacity and power. You can of course get different blades for each saw to suite the material. I also recommend a long rail (3000mm if ripping sheet goods with a 75 or 2700mm for a 55). If you pair the saw and MFT you will get a discount off the MFT in the US. Then buy another tool with a vacuum to get another discount. Or, buy the saw and vac together and make your own table for breaking down material. I love my MFT/3's and think that they are a great value and are easily my most used Festools. But, you can accomplish the same tasks with some quality aftermarket dogs and a cutting surface. Foam on plywood and a couple of saw horses is all you need to get started.

Ask your questions - there is a wealth of info available to you here from experienced users.

 

[Cheese]

First off... [welcome] to the FOG, where it's always 75 and sunny.

I think traditionally the table saw has been the heart of the shop but the times they are a-changing. With the track saw starting to become more main stream, it starts to challenge traditional thinking.

What got my attention is the limited space that you have to work with. If you're ripping an 8' sheet of ply, you need 8' of room in front of the table saw + 2-3' for the saw + 8' of room behind the saw. You also need to have infeed or out feed tables or at least a helper or two, to assist with the operation. With a track saw you need an 8' table and you perform the operation by yourself.

If safety is a concern, the track saw is inherently safer than a table saw, particularly if you've not operated a table saw before. There are many set-up issues you need to address when using a new table saw.

The only part of your story that makes me waffle on my recommendation of a track saw for you is the statement of your building furniture. Furniture is typically constructed from 2" or more thick lumber. The TS 55 will cut slightly less than 2" thick goods when mounted on a track. The TS 75 will cut thicker items but it is more cumbersome.

My takeaway...if 80% of your cutting is under 2" get a track saw, if 80% is over 2" get a table saw.

 

[mo siopa]

You'll be more versatile with the TS55 and MFT.  You will have glue-ready edges with the TS55 and be able to cut accurate miters with the MFT.  The advantage of a table saw is that it enables you make repetitive rip cuts faster.  If you decide to expand, you can add a table saw later but I humbly suggest adding other tools first.

As ScotF suggested, you can handle heavier material with a TS75.  That is what I started with- along with an MFT.  I've since sold my TS75 and bought a new TS55 with the proceeds. I had no issues with the bigger saw but the 55 is just more comfortable.  I'll probably get another 75 eventually.

 

[Holmz]

... Also, I live 300 miles from the nearest lumber/wood store, so most of my stock will be larger cuts to minimize the shipping costs.  ...
I would appreciate any suggestions supporting either choice, or any other options I should look into.
...

There are many good track saws. I have the Mafell MT55, and there is the Bosch, Festool, and the Makita.
The Festool and Makita ride on the Makita track system.
The Mafell and Bosch ride on the Bosch track system.
You can spend hours researching the tracks and the saws, and I would encourage you to do so.
With the Bosch rails it is easy to cut pieces that are narrow as there is a clamp about 1/2" back from the cut edge, but it is still not as easy as a table saw. (But I do the narrow cuts more than I expected I would)

Track saws are popular because many things are made from sheet goods, which are processed. Then the shipping and distribution is easier than distributing large pieces of real wood.

I have a small lumberyard nearby, with a small selection of real wood, and a lot of sheet goods. (Advantage me)
Do you have access to timber? (Advantage you?)

If you do have access to timber, then that could possibly allow you to do things that many people cannot easily do.
This could either be timber framing, or having access to large pieces of pine and outdoor things which are more solid and chunky.
So hand saws, chisels, and timber framing joints... Maybe starting with a trestle table?

If you are headed more towards furniture using real-wood, then a contractor table saw seems to be more useful than a track saw for smaller/thinner pieces.
For thicker pieces they may require more power, or more depth than a small 2" track saw provides.
While I am 100% satisfied with my track saw, I have been looking at getting a semi portable table saw.

So for "your" general work that you mentioned, a track saw sounds ideal.

For "the Mrs stuff", you probably will want a sander and a vacuum. In fact my Mrs bought be the vacuum, and she appreciates my avoiding the coating of things with dust by using the vacuum. (And when I do not use it, I hear about it).  [embarassed]

I have my track saw on an MFT, but you could do you own table and trade time for convenience and end up with a better solution.
Assuming that the winters there are long, that may be something to consider?

Which part of Alaska are you in?
Are there others around who are doing woodwork, who you have access to for looking at how they work?

 

[seandoh]

Thanks for all the help, guys! 
Let me first clarify my previous statement about the furniture part - "furniture" may have been too fancy of a descriptor.  My bride has picked out plans for some Adirondak chairs and a small table for the deck.  I will be trying my hand at some tables (coffee, console and bedside) as a way to learn and practice different joints and other skills.  For the near term, I am being realistic and not expecting much out of these projects other than experience, if one of the mentioned items sees the inside of our house I will be very happy.  I am very much enjoying the process, results to follow.
As for the dimensions of the larger cuts; expect to see questions regarding a bandsaw, jointer and planer coming from me soon.  There is something about that process that I am very much drawn to.
Cheese brought up a great point.  I knew my space was small, but I had not even considered the cut he mentioned. I had only thought of cross cutting plywood, not ripping a sheet lengthwise - did I mention I was new to this?!?

I do realize this question probably gets asked quite frequently here. I had read on other forums many table saw A vs table saw B threads, but I figured by coming here I could get experienced opinions on the table saw vs track saw debate. 
Thanks for taking the time to once again answer a newbie's question, let it be known that I knew enough to come here!

 

[seandoh]

Wow, Holmz!  It is tables like that that fuel my interest and desire to learn this craft. A home cooked meal would taste even better if I could eat it on a table I made that looked like that!
I live in south-central Alaska, 75 miles outside of Anchorage.  Although it is only 75 miles by air, the road to there is stretched out to 300 miles.
There are a few woodworkers here locally and I do plan on seeking them out for tips on making the most of our local growth.
Great advice on the vac. I have a couple shop-vacs and will purchase a CT along with whichever Festool I buy next that qualifies for the discount.  Most likely the router, but I keep hearing great things about the sanders.

 

[Holmz]

Wow, Holmz!  It is tables like that that fuel my interest and desire to learn this craft. A home cooked meal would taste even better if I could eat it on a table I made that looked like that!
I live in south-central Alaska, 75 miles outside of Anchorage.  Although it is only 75 miles by air, the road to there is stretched out to 300 miles.
There are a few woodworkers here locally and I do plan on seeking them out for tips on making the most of our local growth.
Great advice on the vac. I have a couple shop-vacs and will purchase a CT along with whichever Festool I buy next that qualifies for the discount.  Most likely the router, but I keep hearing great things about the sanders.

I've been to Anchorage.
If you have access to the trees, then maybe something more rough?

 

[Tyler Ernsberger]

I would definitely get a table saw along with a track saw.  You can save some money on a job site saw.  I have a Bosch 4100 Job site saw and its great and its dado compatible.  It only cost around $500.  There are great reviews on it online.

Track saws are awesome!  But they cannot replace a table saw. I find my track saw is hard to use on narrow stock.  Where a table saw can work with narrow stock and make repeat cuts very easy and fast.  I have a 1952 Delta Unisaw in my shop and the Bosch in my truck and my Ts75 bounces back and forth.  If I had to get rid of one it be the Track Saw.  Which would be a hard decision but I can live without a track saw cannot live with a tablesaw.

 

[teocaf]

[member=40772]Holmz[/member]
When you post someone else's design work, you should strive to attribute the source, especially when the copyright notice is clearly marked:
http://www.michaelhoywoodworking.com/trestle.html

You don't want people to assume that it's your own work when it is not.  What's also strange to me is the theoretical advice being given here--not the first time I've seen detailed advice posts based on an equipment "wish list" and not on first hand knowledge.  I'm just wandering how helpful that really is.

 

[Birdhunter]

For what it's worth, I've been doing woodworking for well over 30 years and have advised a number of newcomers to the hobby.

I use my MFT/TS55 often, but not nearly as often as my table saw. I find the track saw best for breaking down sheet goods. I find the tablesaw best for nearly everything else. There are an endless number of jigs for the tablesaw that further enhance its accuracy and safety.

If I were in your situation, I'd buy the Sawstop contractor saw. You get an excellent portable saw and the unique safety feature that might prevent a serious injury.

 

[Holmz]

[member=40772]Holmz[/member]
When you post someone else's design work, you should strive to attribute the source, especially when the copyright notice is clearly marked:
http://www.michaelhoywoodworking.com/trestle.html

You don't want people to assume that it's your own work when it is not.  What's also strange to me is the theoretical advice being given here--not the first time I've seen detailed advice posts based on an equipment "wish list" and not on first hand knowledge.  I'm just wandering how helpful that really is.

I will keep your suggestions in mind.

For the purposes of discussion and theory I think the post hit the intended mark of opening up possibility.

Wow, Holmz!  It is tables like that that fuel my interest and desire to learn this craft.
...

[member=40772]Holmz[/member]
--not the first time I've seen detailed advice posts based on an equipment "wish list" and not on first hand knowledge.  I'm just wandering how helpful that really is.

I do have the Bosch rail mounted on the MFT for the MT55.
That is real... With the 'real' being... "Real good".
If you have not used one yet, then I would suggest avoiding it if you are already invested in the FT system.

I believe that I mentioned that there were no timbers nearby, so the planer is "wish list".
Some of that assumes I wished I was in Alaska...

 

[Amalix]

You mention space constraints and working with big sheet goods. Furthermore you will mostly be starting out with sheet goods only. Especially as a beginner I would recommend the tracksaw. Less space needed and much safer and controlled, as mentioned in other posts.

Then you've got multiple choices, the top of which is the TS55R and MT55. I personally use a ts55 because I, at the time, had never heard of Mafell (nor festool) and have been very happy with it. I do consider the mafell slightly better however its also almost 20% more expensive...

The Mafell saw does work on the Festool track system, so it would be MFT compatible.

An MFT I would recommend, either the MFT/3 or a self made version like Dave's docking station. http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/have-a-look-at-my-ts55-docking-station/

If you do decide to look for a table saw I must add the Bosch REAXX to the list of recommendations:

A GTS10XC is on my wishlist but the REAXX would be very interesting indeed...

 

[teocaf]

[member=40772]Holmz[/member]
When you post someone else's design work, you should strive to attribute the source, especially when the copyright notice is clearly marked:
http://www.michaelhoywoodworking.com/trestle.html

You don't want people to assume that it's your own work when it is not.  What's also strange to me is the theoretical advice being given here--not the first time I've seen detailed advice posts based on an equipment "wish list" and not on first hand knowledge.  I'm just wandering how helpful that really is.

I will keep your suggestions in mind.

For the purposes of discussion and theory I think the post hit the intended mark of opening up possibility.

Wow, Holmz!  It is tables like that that fuel my interest and desire to learn this craft.
...

[member=40772]Holmz[/member]
--not the first time I've seen detailed advice posts based on an equipment "wish list" and not on first hand knowledge.  I'm just wandering how helpful that really is.

I do have the Bosch rail mounted on the MFT for the MT55.
That is real... With the 'real' being... "Real good".
If you have not used one yet, then I would suggest avoiding it if you are already invested in the FT system.

I believe that I mentioned that there were no timbers nearby, so the planer is "wish list".
Some of that assumes I wished I was in Alaska...

I was actually referring to the hypothetical table saw advice.  I seem to remember a Hammer sliding saw thread as well where all kinds of 'advice/authoritative comments' were bandied about by people who did not actually own the equipment.  You can of course post whatever--I'm just questioning how helpful that is to someone looking for some real answers as they're deciding to buy.
As far as my other point I'd like to ask a few questions first:  What type of saw was more helpful to you in making the second trestle table you posted?  Did you achieve that fine project using you track saw setup or did you borrow a table saw to do it?
It would be more forthcoming to acknowledge in your initial post that you cribbed that image as well from another copyrighted page of someone else's work.  I think it's quite important to make these attributions to the designers when possible.

http://www.salisburywoodworking.com/#mi=2&pt=1&pi=10000&s=4&p=3&a=0&at=0

 

[stvrowe]

For your situation, I would suggest both.  For sheet goods, unless you have a panel saw, slider, or CNC, the track saw is the best choice.  For crosscutting solid timber, the track saw and MFT3 combo is an excellent choice.  However, for ripping solid timber, I am 100% in the table saw camp. 

I am sure there are those who will disagree but, IMO, the achilles heel of the track saw is ripping solid wood- the setup is just not very efficient for even one width cut, much less multiple widths.  When ripping solid wood, I can run circles around the track saw with any decent tablesaw and do so safely.  For the track saw, ripping wood less than the width of the track (slightly less than 8") requires extensive jigs and setup to do so safely.  The first gripper strip on the Festool track is set back 100mm from the splinter strip on the rail so it will not even grip your work piece if less than approximately 120mm (approx 5").  I work mostly with solid wood and for the aforementioned reasons, the tablesaw will never be replaced by my track saw.

If you are limited to only one of the two, decide what will fit your needs best for the majority of the work you plan on doing and move forward with that.  After all, having been woodworking for over 35 years now, the probability that this is your first and last saw purchase is virtually nill.

 

[AIPDX]

When I read such discussions, the first thing that comes to my mind is that more often than not, those who advocate a table saw over a track saw, mean a high end table saw with outfeed tables and jigs which enables them to make repeatable cuts in a safe manner. Sure, such table saw is a great tool, but it would not fit in a one stall space of a garage (along with other tools) and it may well be in a different (higher) price range than a track saw. I think one has to be very specific about what kind of a "table saw" is meant when one states that he prefers a table saw to a track saw.

I have a TS55 and a basic Dewalt jobsite table saw. While it might be able to cut thicker material, it does not inspire safety and is not nearly as precise as a track saw. It I had room and budget for a 5x to 10x more expensive table saw, I am sure it would be a much more capable tool and I would use it way more often.

 

[Holmz]

...
I was actually referring to the hypothetical table saw advice.  I seem to remember a Hammer sliding saw thread as well where all kinds of 'advice/authoritative comments' were bandied about by people who did not actually own the equipment.  You can of course post whatever--I'm just questioning how helpful that is to someone looking for some real answers as they're deciding to buy.
As far as my other point I'd like to ask a few questions first:  What type of saw was more helpful to you in making the second trestle table you posted?  Did you achieve that fine project using you track saw setup or did you borrow a table saw to do it?
It would be more forthcoming to acknowledge in your initial post that you cribbed that image as well from another copyrighted page of someone else's work.  I think it's quite important to make these attributions to the designers when possible.

http://www.salisburywoodworking.com/#mi=2&pt=1&pi=10000&s=4&p=3&a=0&at=0

Yeah remember the table saw post. I am sure you are mature, but I recall a table saw from early 70's and used them then myself. I am jus unsenile enough to remember pushing through thin pieces with a pencil, which no one uses now that people text.

I just GTS'ed (googled) "trestle tables" and click images to grab one that looked like what I was envisioning, and grabbed the .jpg . I hear your point about linking all the way back to the source... It is not my fault that Google ignors copyrights on images. That is about as forthcoming as I get. Basically I get an idea and if it is easy enough to link the guys the work I will do it. I made no claim that it was my table. The only claim I made was that if I was in Alaska, I would try to make a table like that if I had the wood for it. [embarassed]

People post their stuff for all sorts of reasons including sales. So if Google makes it available I do not believe we are at the level of a doctoral thesis where I need to provide references to where the info came from. You do not require this from others, so why am I being singled out?
Both tables looked nice, and both people making them do good work.

I have ordered some larger chisels and a bisaque to use for making a trestle table, however I believe that I have posted that there is not a great deal of timber where I am at. That is why I posted that the OP being Alaska may be in a more unique situation. But I am tackling some trestle ponies as a starting point.
I'll probably start with a trestle pony or two.

 

[monstrol]

Just my 2 cents.
My first festool purchase was a ts75 and mft. It is heavy and bulky but will do what you need.
I just finished a job repurposing bowling alley lanes into countertops, benches  and a campus wall(it's a rock climbing gym thing).  Cutting through 2 1/2 inch maple with many nails was fun and the 75 is a stud. Get the 75 first and add the rest. Just my 2 cents.

 

[seandoh]

I would like to thank everyone for their input, it has made this once daunting decision a tad easier.  Woodworking for me, at this point, is more about the process of learning a craft and the self growth that comes with that. Sorry if that sounds a little hokey, but at this point in my life I need to keep that perspective. 

This is my first (but definitely not last) major tool purchase and therefore it symbolizes my comitment to the craft.  If I go the bare minimum route, I should expect the same level of return in the interest/enjoyment category. That being said, I also believe in diminishing returns and at some point I would just be paying for features that I will not appreciate for several years.

I am extremely fortunate in that my constraints thus far are more based in space limitations than monetary.  And because of that and the advice offered in this thread, I have decided that both saws have their strengths and merits.  I will be purchasing a Delta 36-725 table saw for all the reasons stated above.  This forum has also justified the track saw, which was my original intent.  Was there enough of a reason to step up into the TS-55/75 and MFT?  The resounding answer is yes!

I want to give myself every advantage I can for success and having options will allow me to learn several techniques.  I do see the value in the "master one tool" approach and it will be fun exploring the capabilities of both saws, comparing the functionality of one vs the other in my own ways.  If I have learned anything from woodworking so far, it is that there are many routes to the same destination - pick the one that works for you.

Again, thanks for all the help and like I said in the original post, I look forward to participating in this forum as my skills progress.  Perhaps one day I will be able to pass the lessons learned here on to the next new guy!