Problems with the FS-WA/90 square

[sqw]

Off and on I've been having issues with the rail square. Some of it I've put down to the factory edge on certain sheets of ply, other times I'm rushing. But not today, and I'm perplexed.

I battled for a couple of hours trying to diagnose why the rail wasn't square to the sheet. I was cutting a sheet lengthways with a 3000mm rail. It was off by 10mm along the distance of 2400mm. I removed it, and placed it several times with the same result. The square was fully attached to the rail and snug to the sheet. Nothing was loose. I'd verified the rail was square to the track with known accurate squares. The square in this case was up against an edge I'd just cut — not a factory edge.

For the life of me, I could not get the rail square to the sheet. No debris, nothing between the square and the rail. The rail is dead straight (and I'm having the same problem with the 1400mm rail).

After a couple of hours I grabbed a shopmade square and manually placed the rail against it — 90º cut, no dramas.

The problem is the square. But I don't know why. All other variables have been eliminated (unless I'm missing something). The square is in excellent condition, the contact edge that goes against the sheet is at 90º to the contact sheet that goes against the rail. I'm stumped. Has anyone else had issues like this?

Also, what's with the 1400mm rail? It's incredibly difficult to accurately crosscut a 1200mm sheet with or without the rail square when the only one guide jaw is on the rail at the beginning and end of the cut.

Appreciate any help.

 

[bobtskutter]

Hello sqw, welcome to the FOG.

I've been cutting OSB sheets (2440x1220mm) using the 3000mm rail and 2424mm holly rail.
I've found that NOT using rail clamps and having a cutting table which isn't flat causes the 3000mm rail to move very slightly.

So my process is as follows (I'm using TSO rail squares and parallel guides with a TS75).

1) remove the factory edge from the 2440mm long side using the 3000mm rail with clamps at BOTH ends.
2) remove the other factory edge from the 2440mm long side using the 3000mm rail, parallel guides (you could use a tape measure) and clamps.
3) cross cut the sheet using the 2424mm holly rail and two rail squares plus clamps.

If I'm making short cuts (e.g. 500mm or less) I use the 1400mm rail and one square, NO clamps.  I make sure the rail is supported even when it's not on the workpiece so the rail doesn't tip when the saw is first plunged.

I know others on this forum say the rubber strips are able to hold the rails, but I've found they only work if your cutting surface is flat and you can guide the saw without any sideways force.  For me, I can only do that with the 1400mm rail and short cuts.

Regards
Bob

 

[Brian Livingstone]

I couldn’t really get a square cut with my square.  I sold it, and went back to using my TSO GRS.  I have never had an issue with the TSO. 

Brian

 

[TSO_Products]

[member=79828]sqw[/member] - adding my "welcome to the FOG!" - a very helpful place even when you don't encounter a problem  [smile]

email me your contact information and I'll see what we can do to help depending on your the time-zone.

info@tsoproducts.com
Attention Hans

 

[squall_line]

I couldn’t really get a square cut with my square.  I sold it, and went back to using my TSO GRS.  I have never had an issue with the TSO. 

Brian

I'm not sure if you were referring to the same square as sqw, but the FS WA/90 is literally the TSO GRS in silver and green, so that is really curious indeed.

 

[Coen]

Also, what's with the 1400mm rail? It's incredibly difficult to accurately crosscut a 1200mm sheet with or without the rail square when the only one guide jaw is on the rail at the beginning and end of the cut.

It's Festool stubbornness. The older saws had their points of contact with the rail closer to each other, requiring less rail length for the same cut length. Putting those points more to the front and rear increases guiding accuracy, but requires more length. Other companies have moved away from 1400 rails toward 1500 (Makita) and 1600 (Mafell), probably for the that reason too, but Festool keeps doubling down on the lame 1400. Real sad if you ask me. Or maybe whoever makes those decisions over there is into cutting doors 800-1100mm instead of sheets at 1220mm.

If you are my neighbor, I'd happily buy the other half if you were to cut down an FS/2 3000 in two equal pieces.  [tongue]

This whole thing with the Festool rails being too short is the whole reason [member=61691]TSO_Products[/member] makes the GRE-13..

Or maybe I should do what someone else (sorry, I don't remember who and where) already showed on the FoG before; cut down a 1900 (?) and have a small piece fixed to a board to calibrate different saws to the same rail.

As for using the square for 2440 long cuts... meh. The tiniest amount of dust or stress will result in a significant deviation at the end of the cut.

Also, if the rail was heated unevenly that can add to it too.

 

[sqw]

[member=79828]sqw[/member] - adding my "welcome to the FOG!" - a very helpful place even when you don't encounter a problem  [smile]

email me your contact information and I'll see what we can do to help depending on your the time-zone.

info@tsoproducts.com
Attention Hans

Thanks Hans. I have the Festool version, not the TSO. But I'll happily accept any help! For now, it's retired and I'm using my shopmade square.

 

[sqw]

So my process is as follows (I'm using TSO rail squares and parallel guides with a TS75).

1) remove the factory edge from the 2440mm long side using the 3000mm rail with clamps at BOTH ends.
2) remove the other factory edge from the 2440mm long side using the 3000mm rail, parallel guides (you could use a tape measure) and clamps.
3) cross cut the sheet using the 2424mm holly rail and two rail squares plus clamps.

Thanks for sharing your process. I'm doing a version of this. Cutting to a pencil mark and using shop square for crosscuts. Getting good results. So for now, the rail square is retired.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

[member=79828]sqw[/member] - adding my "welcome to the FOG!" - a very helpful place even when you don't encounter a problem  [smile]

email me your contact information and I'll see what we can do to help depending on your the time-zone.

info@tsoproducts.com
Attention Hans

Thanks Hans. I have the Festool version, not the TSO. But I'll happily accept any help! For now, it's retired and I'm using my shopmade square.

As previously mentioned by Squall_line, they are literally the same tool. The Festool version is licensed to them by TSO. Festool did the right thing, rather than ripping it off, as others have done.
If you look at the clip that secures the rail, I'd be willing to bet that you'll find a TSO logo.

That aside, and with all due respect, I think you are asking too much from a rail square.....any rail square. Expecting a reference edge of less than 18" to work with a rail that is nearly 10 feet long, is not realistic. Look at the typical "framing square", one leg is about 24" and the other 16". That is effectively a 2-3 ratio. The same holds true for other sizes. To get this equal, you would need to cut the short leg of your framing square down to 1 3/4". Are you going to trust that?

As I see it, you need to reverse the order of operations. Cut the long edge first, to get it straight. Then square the short edge to it. If you are just doing this to make the 8' direction of your sheet narrower, you need parallel guides, not a square.

As it is, many people complain about getting straight cuts with a 3000mm rail, because the grip of the foam tape can be enough to introduce a slight bow if it is not laid out properly. Getting that and a square to work together is unrealistic.

 

[sqw]

As previously mentioned by Squall_line, they are literally the same tool. The Festool version is licensed to them by TSO. Festool did the right thing, rather than ripping it off, as others have done.
If you look at the clip that secures the rail, I'd be willing to bet that you'll find a TSO logo.

I understand that. I was pleasantly surprised that a TSO rep was willing to help me with a tool I bought from Festool.

That aside, and with all due respect, I think you are asking too much from a rail square.....any rail square. Expecting a reference edge of less than 18" to work with a rail that is nearly 10 feet long, is not realistic. Look at the typical "framing square", one leg is about 24" and the other 16". That is effectively a 2-3 ratio. The same holds true for other sizes. To get this equal, you would need to cut the short leg of your framing square down to 1 3/4". Are you going to trust that?

As I see it, you need to reverse the order of operations. Cut the long edge first, to get it straight. Then square the short edge to it. If you are just doing this to make the 8' direction of your sheet narrower, you need parallel guides, not a square.

I'm not expecting perfection. 10mm is a bit much for my tastes. And if you look at my original message you will see I am having the same issue crosscutting with the 1400mm rail (after ripping the long edge).

 

[morgyface]

I realise this post is a couple of years old now, but it's been interesting to read as I'm also facing an un-square FS-WA/90 205229. Like [member=79828]sqw[/member] I have ensured edges of material and the square are clean, I've also used clamps and have ensured pressure is distributed evenly along the edge of the stop to ensure it sits perfectly flush against the edge of the sheet material and my cuts are definitely not 90°.

I've been making tall shelving units, around 12 in total, I've been using a FS 2400/2 rail to rip the side panels down then a FS 800/2 with the FS-WA/90 to make cross cuts of around 300mm.

Over the distance of 300mm the cuts are around 1.5mm out. Which is too much as these will be the bases of the units, so I'll need to re-cut them all. Foolishly I didn't really check, I just assumed using a festool square/stop over a short distance was a done deal, a bang-on 90 degree cut, but it looks like every cut I've made is out which is disappointing.

I'm yet to establish just how many degrees out they are exactly, but I've spent the morning scouring to see if it could be user error? Or if they're designed to be slightly out for some reason and I'm using it too accurately?

Given the dates, I'm wondering if [member=79828]sqw[/member] and I have FS-WA/90's from the same batch, I got mine around 2023 and haven't really used it until now.

How does this work in terms of warranty/support?

 

[peter halle]

Sorry to read about your situation.  Regarding your particular square where the square is more than a year old, you should contact your Festool office and explain the situation.

Peter

 

[TSO_Products]

I realise this post is a couple of years old now, but it's been interesting to read as I'm also facing an un-square FS-WA/90 205229. 
. . . edited for brevity . . .
How does this work in terms of warranty/support?

[member=82856]morgyface[/member] - in the interest of helping a fellow woodworker, I'd like to help you. Look for a PM from me with my contact info.

Hans
PS: talking directly with customers helps us stay grounded in the real world  [smile]

 

[Coen]

I realise this post is a couple of years old now, but it's been interesting to read as I'm also facing an un-square FS-WA/90 205229. Like [member=79828]sqw[/member] I have ensured edges of material and the square are clean, I've also used clamps and have ensured pressure is distributed evenly along the edge of the stop to ensure it sits perfectly flush against the edge of the sheet material and my cuts are definitely not 90°.

I've been making tall shelving units, around 12 in total, I've been using a FS 2400/2 rail to rip the side panels down then a FS 800/2 with the FS-WA/90 to make cross cuts of around 300mm.

Over the distance of 300mm the cuts are around 1.5mm out. Which is too much as these will be the bases of the units, so I'll need to re-cut them all. Foolishly I didn't really check, I just assumed using a festool square/stop over a short distance was a done deal, a bang-on 90 degree cut, but it looks like every cut I've made is out which is disappointing.

I'm yet to establish just how many degrees out they are exactly, but I've spent the morning scouring to see if it could be user error? Or if they're designed to be slightly out for some reason and I'm using it too accurately?

Given the dates, I'm wondering if [member=79828]sqw[/member] and I have FS-WA/90's from the same batch, I got mine around 2023 and haven't really used it until now.

How does this work in terms of warranty/support?

1.5mm over 300mm gives 2.9 degrees

 

[morgyface]

Okay, a confession and sincere apologies to both Festool and TSO. When I got to the workshop I used a digital angle rule to check the cuts I'd made using my FS-WA/90, they were absolutely bang on 90°, the only deviation from this was slight at 90.2° which was one of 10 cuts I checked and I suspect user error, perhaps a slight shift as I clamped.

Wearing spectacles in a new thing for me and I'm getting used to the fish-eye effect, this combined with only clamping a jig on one side and it creating a gap when not under pressure made it look like the cuts must've been out, I demonstrated this to another woodworker and he agreed, it was a bit of an optical illusion.

First thing I should've done is checked the angles with a measuring device rather than using my ol' peepers.

Once again, apologies, the FS-WA/90 is a fine bit of kit. Thank you to Hans [member=61691]TSO_Products[/member] for making contact, that's some customer support.

 

[TSO_Products]

[member=82856]morgyface[/member]
- thank you so much for the update. Your feedback can be helpful to others because it illustrates that there are many possible "root cause" answers in woodworking. Figuring out which of the possible causes add up to the result and prevention is part of what builds experience.

What makes you special is that you wasted no time in sharing your findings.
That is very respectful of the other FOG participants and sets a good example [wink]

wish you the best!
Hans

 

[mino]

Okay, a confession and sincere apologies to both Festool and TSO. When I got to the workshop I used a digital angle rule to check the cuts I'd made using my FS-WA/90, they were absolutely bang on 90°, the only deviation from this was slight at 90.2° which was one of 10 cuts I checked and I suspect user error, perhaps a slight shift as I clamped.

...
First thing I should've done is checked the angles with a measuring device rather than using my ol' peepers.
...

Erm. That "thing" you mention, is not a measuring device by any measure. Not for checking squareness of anything remotely serious. That yours says "bang on" is pure coincidence first, and pretty misleading second. Even the best digital angle rules (think those costing $200+) are accurate to the 0.1° which is far, far off what you need here. 0.1° off is 0,04"(1 mm) over a 2' (600 mm) length which not by far not good-enough. Do not mistake how many *digits* they display from how *accurate* they measure. The common ones I saw were accurate to the 0.5°, some only 1° while casually displaying point angles as yours.

Your "issue" is there are no digital angle rules on the market that are accurate-enough to match/exceed the expected accuracy of the FS/WA 90 a.k.a. the TSO GRS 16. For that one needs a proper precision engineers square, in US that would be that $200 Starret ...

In the rest of the world you would need a DIN Class 1 square at a bare minimum as that is about equivalent in accuracy. FOr a proper check one needs a DIN class 0 square for calibrating/checking a DIN Class 1 accuracy level square like these are.

Just to translate for those not familiar, a DIN Class 0 square has an allowed deviation of 0.008 mm for a 150 mm arm, i.e. 0,003° .. try finding a digital square with that accuracy - not just how many digits it shows, actual guaranteed accuracy.

/end rant

ADD:
The helpfulness an politeness of Hans (from TSO) never ceases to amaze me. Need to learn that one day ..

[member=59331]TSO Products[/member]
May I suggest you consider spinning up (or linking if find a good source) a dedicated page/article on your site about the concept of accuracy/precision and, as an example, mention where you are "shooting for" with some of your products? It feels to me like most - even professional - woodworkers may not have come across the accuracy/precision concepts unless they were in the engineering business before.
With the prevalence of cheapo "digital" measuring devices people are easy to get trusting ... is kinda needed more than before. Me thinks.

 

[morgyface]

Goodness gracious [member=61254]mino[/member] it wasn’t completely obvious from your post but, just to clarify, are you saying that digital angle finders are not accurate? I do use one on occasion, so I shall sell all my tools tomorrow as it’s clear I am a moron and should not be woodworking. I’m disappointed as I love it with all of my heart and I’m told I’m quite good at it, but you are clearly the higher authority on this. I won’t waste any more of your precious time, you’re probably at a great party being the life and soul whilst cracking jokes and what not. Thank you for incredibly useful and in no way pedantic input to this thread, it’s helped many of us find direction in a vague and far too tolerant world. Big hugs, Morgyface.

[member=61691]TSO_Products[/member] Thank you and my apologies once again, PS, I used it a fixed square as well to check and it was definitely “bang on”.