Reverse Osmosis or Water Softener

E

extiger

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Water in Southern California is very alkaline and tons of calcium. It just chews up plumbing fixtures after 15 years. I'm installing an Espresso machine in the house. The coffee geeks say that using distilled water kills the flavor in an Espresso made with a plumbed in machine. So complete Reverse Osmosis, either under the sink for drinking water, or whole house plumbed into the main is not advised.

The other option is Water Softener. For drinking water, the ice maker and for the Espresso machine. Or, again, for the whole house. It is a near-new kitchen with an large double sink so there's plenty of room for an install. The water main is 1" copper coming in at the front of the house. It would be easy to hide the tanks by running a 10-foot diversion behind a tall fence and gate and then routing a line back to the house feed.

What is your advice? What would be the cost, and the cost of tank replacement every 3 years. By the way, we have 2200 ft/sq with a 500 sq/ft back house. Total of 4 bathrooms, 2 kitchens.
 
I don't think drinking softened or demineralized water is particularly good for you due to loss of fluoridation and trace minerals, so you should maintain a tap that can be used for drinking water somewhere in the house, preferably in the kitchen for convenience.

Demineralized or softened water will work much better for washing things - hard water will actually deposit calcium on clothing as well as glassware etc. so it is not just plumbing that needs to be factored in to this.

Ah - I found the WHO report on the topic of nutrients in drinking water.

http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/nutrconsensusrep.pdf

 
we have (albe it in a different country than yours) a water softener. it works great but i dont like drinking it, all that salt cant be good for you. works great for appliances etc , keeps all the lime etc out
those reverse osmosis machines take everything out good and bad , so your left with H20. in th elong run that will be bad for you drinking it. iv tasted water from one of those machines (during the outbreaks of cariptosparidium these were installed), the glass i tasted was boring , tasteless, and even worse made you thirsty. there was no satisfaction from drinking it. 
 
As is typical of residents in Southern California we have bottled water. The city water tastes terrible. Strangely, the City of Beverly Hills 4 miles east of me has water that smells like a sewer when you open a tap. It is notorious. All the rich folks there drink bottled water and have a filtration system on the house.

What I can do is filter water for household use and continue to used bottled water for the Espresso. There are choices in machine features. Only the bigger ones have a direct water feed.

So, now to cost. If we drink and cook from bottled water, what kind of system is better for general household use? Reverse Osmosis or Softened water?
 
I have a bit of knowledge in this area - If your water is that hard, you probably need a softener for sure - some people believe that the water will be too salty but a properly functioning softener will not add a noticable salt taste and the actuall added salt is pretty minimal. If you're on a highly salt restricted diet, you can add an RO under the kitchen sink - They can be installed anywhere within 15 feet or so from the tap.

Whole house RO is a non starter - you will need to install a unit to feed just the drinking water taps. RO process takes too long to feed a whole house for washing, etc.

Taste is a matter of taste  [smile]

I have been drinking RO water for years as well as using it for coffee and tea. I much prefer the taste of RO, it has a very pure clean taste. Some people take a while to adjust but once they do, they prefer it. A good RO will leave you TDS of 5 PPM or so whereas distilled is 0 PPM, a very minimal difference. However distilled tastes "worse" in most peoples opinion mainly because it has little or no oxygen. The big advantage with RO is you will have NO scaling in your coffee maker. I've had a Keurig for 3 years and it has never needed de scaling.

With a 4 or 5 stage RO for drinking water you need to change your filters regularly, every 6 months for most users. A nw membrane should only be needed every 5 or 6 years, Remember that the carbon filter in the RO system is what removes chlorine and improves the taste.

Chris
 
I'm with hockey magnet... control the minerals in the whole house (I have seen dishwashers plugged with lime deposits), use RO for source water to the coffee maker, and whatever else. Filter replacement is according to use. Scaling can ruin your coffee machine. When I used to work in a lab, I would fill up gallon containers of deionized water just for my coffee machine.
 
You will not like the softened water.  Reverse osmosis is the way to go, we have horrible water here in Phoenix also and that is what I have.
 
With all that's been said, I think I'll continue to use bottled water, and get an RO unit under the sink for the ice maker and cooking, and if I can afford it get the cannister type Soft Water system for the whole house.

When I've traveled to cities with soft water, it seemed like a dream to shower. And washing clothes was kind of uplifting.

Thanks to you all.
 
I'm an eng consultant so here are my 2 cents:

My recollection is that some jurisdictions in California no longer allow the use of residential softeners.  Check your local by-laws.  There are a couple of issues that you need to consider with RO:

1) RO membranes (filters) are typically not chlorine resistant.  You need to remove the chlorine from the tap water  prior to the RO membranes (typically with a replaceable carbon filter).  Otherwise, you are going to replace the filters very often and/or they will develop rat holes (won't filter at all).  
2) RO has very tight pores and removes almost everything out of the water.  You end up with aggressive water (with no alkalinity) that will corrode metal fixtures and pipes.  If the water has no alkalinity then there is nothing preventing it of becoming acidic and eat up pipes and fixtures.  Distilled water pH is typically less than 5.  If you are using the RO for selected appliances, I would recommend using plastic pipe or tubing.
3) EDIT: Drinking water with no minerals  [without replenishing the minerals through food or drink intake] could lead to electrolytic imbalances.  If this is done too often and for too long it can lead to long term health problems.  There is a reason why dehydration is treated with electrolytic solutions (gatorade, juices, or water with a little salt), especially in warmer climates where perspiration is the main mechanism of fluid and salt loss.  These will typically lead to a faster recovery because is replenishing both fluids and minerals.  However, no one size fits all.
 
Jesus Aleman said:
I'm an eng consultant so here are my 2 cents:

My recollection is that some jurisdictions in California no longer allow the use of residential softeners.  Check your local by-laws.  There are a couple of issues that you need to consider with RO:

1) RO membranes (filters) are typically not chlorine resistant.  You need to remove the chlorine from the tap water  prior to the RO membranes (typically with a replaceable carbon filter).  Otherwise, you are going to replace the filters very often and/or they will develop rat holes (won't filter at all).   
2) RO has very tight pores and removes almost everything out of the water.  You end up with aggressive water (with no alkalinity) that will corrode metal fixtures and pipes.  If the water has no alkalinity then there is nothing preventing it of becoming acidic and eat up pipes and fixtures.  Distilled water pH is typically less than 5.  If you are using the RO for selected appliances, I would recommend using plastic pipe or tubing.
3) Drinking water with no minerals is also not healthy on the long run.
Click to expand...

Our company sells, installs and maintains softeners, UV's, RO units, sulphur, iron and most other types of filters and systems. I agree and did indicate that you have to have a carbon filter but all RO units, whether they are 3,4 or 5 stage include carbon cannisters. As I said, in the units we sell and service, it is extremely unusual for membranes to last less than 5 years. Typically the membrane is the most expensive component and runs $150 -$200 to replace.

Yes RO water is aggressive which is why the output on a typical RO is always plastic - we recommend John Guest. As far as using RO in "appliances" tubing to the appliance is always plastic. Once again, typically direct feed from an RO is almost always to a separate sink tap, specific to the RO unit, refrigerator drinking water outlet and a POU cooler.

A good, reputable installer will ensure that you don't have problems with your RO unit.

Your comment on drinking water without minerals is, in my opinion, nonsense but at least you didn't get into the whole "RO water is highly acidic so it is bad for you" argument.
 
The link in my first post is to a World Health Organization study summarizing a series of scientific investigations on health effects of mineral content of drinking water. These studies were done because of increasing use of desalinization plants which provide low mineral content water.

Anyone planning on treating their drinking water should be aware of the adverse effects of low mineral content water.

 
I have a water softener and would not be without it for washing and bathing. Drinking water in general is looked down upon here ( I have several friends who only drink cider if they are thirsty  ;) ) but being serious we only drink mineral water as the tap water here is disgusting. We filter the water for the expresso machine with a brita filter which is ok but not ideal. But the point of my post is to let you all know that the late LJK Setright, an english journalist and engineer, maintained that the only way to get a decent expresso was to ship in his water from Italy  [unsure] [scared] [eek]
 
andvari said:
The link in my first post is to a World Health Organization study summarizing a series of scientific investigations on health effects of mineral content of drinking water. These studies were done because of increasing use of desalinization plants which provide low mineral content water.

Anyone planning on treating their drinking water should be aware of the adverse effects of low mineral content water.
Click to expand...

Agreed but keep in mind this is a WHO study for various global conditions, including diet deficiencies, etc. in developing countries,  etc. It does not IMHO have much as much relevance in an industrial society where almost everything we eat has added vitamins and minerals and many people take supplements. I would not rely on any water as an appropriate mineral delivery system.
 
A word to the wise,

One thing that has not been mentioned here is the incredible amount of water waste that is incurred with an Reverse Osmosis system.
For every gallon of water produced in that tank under your sink it takes several gallons of water just to produce that gallon.
If you think that the water waste stops after the tank is full, think again. Have an RO system and don't believe me? Wait until the tank feels full and then open up the drain valve under the sink and see for yourself. Yes there are some systems out there that do shut themselves down when the tank is full but they tend to be problematic, because they tend to inject the highly concentrated waste water back into the good water in the shut down and start up process, because of the pressure against the ro membrane. So a whole house RO system would be totally out of the question, for no other reason then that.

Have a soft water system and think you are in the clear? Ha!
Between 30 to a 100 gallons are used every few days during the flushing cycle. If you already have a softener system you might consider extending the time between cycles.

I could go on, but I need to pick my wife up at the airport.
cheers,
Roger

btw, who ever changed the background color from green to light grey when hitting the "Preview" button - good move! Much easier reading.

 
hockey_magnet said:
Agreed but keep in mind this is a WHO study for various global conditions, including diet deficiencies, etc. in developing countries,  etc. It does not IMHO have much as much relevance in an industrial society where almost everything we eat has added vitamins and minerals and many people take supplements. I would not rely on any water as an appropriate mineral delivery system.
Click to expand...

The epidemiological studies were conducted in "the United Kingdom, United States, Sweden, Russia, and France". Clearly if this was not an issue in these industrialized countries the studies would have not generated useful data.
 
I can tell you that I've been using reverse-reverse osmosis water for years.  I think it's plenty safe and the water tastes nice 'n crappy, just the way I like it.  Take a look!  I'm fine.

[attachimg=#]
 
You're absolutely correct and it's something anyone considering a system should think about. One of the reasons that we only recommend RO for drinking and cooking on a dedicated tap. The other being the slowness of the system. I should add that much of the bottled water being consumed today is also RO water that has been modified.

Roger Savatteri said:
A word to the wise,

One thing that has not been mentioned here is the incredible amount of water waste that is incurred with an Reverse Osmosis system.
For every gallon of water produced in that tank under your sink it takes several gallons of water just to produce that gallon.
If you think that the water waste stops after the tank is full, think again. Have an RO system and don't believe me? Wait until the tank feels full and then open up the drain valve under the sink and see for yourself. Yes there are some systems out there that do shut themselves down when the tank is full but they tend to be problematic, because they tend to inject the highly concentrated waste water back into the good water in the shut down and start up process, because of the pressure against the ro membrane. So a whole house RO system would be totally out of the question, for no other reason then that.

Have a soft water system and think you are in the clear? Ha!
Between 30 to a 100 gallons are used every few days during the flushing cycle. If you already have a softener system you might consider extending the time between cycles.

I could go on, but I need to pick my wife up at the airport.
cheers,
Roger

btw, who ever changed the background color from green to light grey when hitting the "Preview" button - good move! Much easier reading.
Click to expand...
 
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