Reverse Osmosis or Water Softener

[hockey_magnet]

I think you missed my point, but that's ok. People tend to be very opinionated about this topic and we're unlikely to change our point of view - which everyone is entitled to. You might try re reading that article very slowly and carefully - it's easy to just focus on a few statements - to repeat - you should not be relying on your drinking water to provide you with vital minerals.

Agreed but keep in mind this is a WHO study for various global conditions, including diet deficiencies, etc. in developing countries,  etc. It does not IMHO have much as much relevance in an industrial society where almost everything we eat has added vitamins and minerals and many people take supplements. I would not rely on any water as an appropriate mineral delivery system.

The epidemiological studies were conducted in "the United Kingdom, United States, Sweden, Russia, and France". Clearly if this was not an issue in these industrialized countries the studies would have not generated useful data.

 

[JeromeM]

A point that has not yet been made is that unless you are drinking large quantities of water between meals ( I do for a few months of the year) you will get enough minerals and more importantly salt in your food.

Hyperbaric requirements and high temperature non air conditioned usage is quite different. In both of these the water requirement between meals is much higher. If you are drinking H2O then your blood salt level drops this causes the kidneys to raise the blood salt levels by filling your bladder with fluid, this has some salt in it. Thus pure water does not hydrate you it in fact dehydrates you.

Having said that Hyperbaric chambers may be humidifying the gases you breath. I haven't studied that part of  Hyperbaric medicine.

The reason why Hyperbaric requirements are so different are partly that the gas you breathe in (usually air, but not always) has a humidity of zero. So when you breathe out you loose water. With sea water diving I also think that you loose some water due to osmotic pressure as the body salt is about 1/4% and sea water is about 4%

So if you have to drink a lot between meals (I'll be up to 5 litres per day in 2 weeks time) then pure water is not good for your health.

PADI MSDT 474441 + Normox Trimix

 

[extiger]

I'm the original OP on this thread. I went today to a nearby dealer in all things water. Water coolers, purifiers, and water itself. He gave me a few fact sheets and said they do home installations. Matching the objective to the equipment.

Like many guys of my Gender, I experienced a little "mission creep" here. I started out thinking of having plumbed-in water for an espresso machine. Then, like some mad dictator, that grew to the imaginary grandeur of the whole house being bathed in purified water. Today Espresso. Tomorrow the world. We've seen this before, and after all, isn't that impulse a lubricant behind some of our Festool purchases?

Espresso experts inform me that the best coffee is made from water with a small mineral content and is devoid of chlorine odor. Low calcium helps by minimizing deposits on small valves and the boiler. They advise to steer away from distilled water. So, whether I choose to have a water inlet direct to the machine, or fill a tank by hand, a small under-sink contraption is the scale of  my project. Thanks to you all.

Some of you mentioned water loss by breathing at altitude or in scuba diving. I was in Flight Operations at a major airline. On International flights, pilots swig 2 liters to a gallon of bottled water to offset the dehydration caused by the 3% humidity on planes at altitude over long durations. Studies by NASA on pilot fatigue say that ample hydration while flying is the best remedy for jet-lag symptoms. And that means no caffeinated or highly sugared beverages. And above all, no alcohol.

 

[andvari]

I think you missed my point, but that's ok. People tend to be very opinionated about this topic and we're unlikely to change our point of view - which everyone is entitled to. You might try re reading that article very slowly and carefully - it's easy to just focus on a few statements - to repeat - you should not be relying on your drinking water to provide you with vital minerals.

That's a very different statement than saying drinking demineralized water has no potential effect on your health. There are numerous studies showing that it does.

http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/nutrientschap10.pdf

 

[atomicmike]

With plumbed-in espresso machines, one other problem with straight RO water (or distilled) is that it is relatively mineral-hungry. Over time, it will leach minerals out of the piping and boiler, which isn't a good thing. Though it may never be a problem with the quantities of water in home use.

The best RO-based solution I've seen for coffee use is the "Easy" from a company called Cirqua (http://cirqua.com/). They work by taking RO water and adding a controlled amount of minerals back into it to get it to the ideal level of dissolved solids for coffee. It's not exactly a practical solution for home use, though.

A simpler, lower-cost option is the Claris line from Everpure (http://www.everpure.com/newspress/pages/claris.aspx). It's a similar concept, but instead of RO water with minerals, it blends softened and filtered water together to get closer to the right concentration. While softened water is not ideal for many things, it can really improve the flavor of coffee. I have a plumbed-in espresso machine, which is supplied by a small softener-only cartridge (had I known about the Claris when I set things up, I would have gone that route). My city water is not overly hard, but it's not soft either. The flavor difference between espresso shots made before and after I installed the softener was really amazing, even though the water is actually softer than the ideal. Once the current softener cartridge is past its prime, I plan on replacing it with one of the Claris units, unless something better has come along by then.

And if you haven't already, I highly recommend reading, or at least skimming, Jim Schulman's "Insanely Long Water FAQ" (http://www.big-rick.com/coffee/waterfaq.html). There's a lot of great information in there about the mineral content of water, how to treat it, and particularly how it all pertains to espresso.

- Mike

 

[extiger]

After a bit of reading the links suggested here, I am inclined to get under-sink water softening with a drinking water tap plumbed above the counter, and  T-connector to supply soft water to the dishwater and the icemaker in the refrig.  It really gets tiresome to see crusty scum left on clean dishes after the dry cycle.

What gallon capacity would i need from a softener to supply drinking/cooking water, ice and 1 cycle of dishwashing per day? (3 people in the household)

 

[atomicmike]

After a bit of reading the links suggested here, I am inclined to get under-sink water softening with a drinking water tap plumbed above the counter, and  T-connector to supply soft water to the dishwater and the icemaker in the refrig.  It really gets tiresome to see crusty scum left on clean dishes after the dry cycle.

What gallon capacity would i need from a softener to supply drinking/cooking water, ice and 1 cycle of dishwashing per day? (3 people in the household)

If your dishwasher is Energy Star-qualified, it should be using under 6.5 gallons per cycle. The water needs of an ice maker can vary greatly, but the worst case scenario is around 0.5 gallons per pound, with most household refrigerators able to make about 4 pounds a day, that works out to 2 gallons of water per day, max. I can't find any good info on average use for cooking water as such, and drinking water is at most 1 gallon per person per day. So without cooking water, that's around 11 gallons per day. I would think that an all-in total of 20 gallons per day would cover all but the worst-case scenario.

Of course, if the dishwasher is older, or you use a lot of water for cooking, those numbers would go up.

- Mike

 

[extiger]

There certainly is an abundance of data provided in the links here. Thanks. I went this morning to the espresso house in Venice, California. It is the place were I took two classes on the subject. They told me an interesting finding about water quality and espresso. The cafe has a large Reverse Osmosis system, complete with a charcoal filter and a tank that re-introduces minerals back into the purified water. The minerals contribute to flavor and are needed to trigger the auto refill sensors in the boilers of the espresso machines.

This morning, the gal who taught my class said their entire staff of espresso brewers took a blind taste test of various bottled waters. In our area the leading brands are Sparkletts, Arrowhead and Evian. The Sparkletts won, hands down. The servers favored it over their own expensive RO filtered water. What a surprise. Sparkletts is the brand I have delivered to my house weekly. 18 gallons. So it looks like my only need for a plumbed in system will be for a softener for the dishwasher. By the way, Sparkletts is a nationally-sold brand, headquartered in Georgia.

 

[atomicmike]

It sounds like they need to readjust the mineral mix on their water. It is surprising how much of a difference a slight change in mineral level can make on the finished drink. I took some classes at a couple of the Specialty Coffee Association's conferences where we did a similar taste test of the same coffee brewed with different mineral content in the water. That was quite an eye-opener for me, and not just from the caffeine.  [eek]

Using tap water, I would notice a lot of seasonal variation in the taste of the coffee I was making. It turns out that when I measured the mineral content (total dissolved solids), it was varying from around 125 ppm to well over 200 ppm (ideal is around 100), depending on time of year. From my recollection, coffee is around 1200 ppm total dissolved solids, so that change in water hardness works out to roughly 10% more or less coffee being extracted.

It's lucky that you already have nice coffee-quality water being delivered right to your door. That takes a lot of the guesswork out of things!

- Mike

 

[waterguy22]

I think, you're absolutely correct and it's something anyone considering a system should think about. One of the reasons that we only recommend RO for drinking and cooking on a dedicated tap. The other being the slowness of the system. I should add that much of the bottled water being consumed today is also RO water that has been modified. What say?

 

[Jim Metzger]

I was just thrilled to read the name LJK Setright. Loved reading his column in Automobile Magazine many years ago. Ah, a simpler time.

 

[Holmz]

Has anybody used distilled water for ice cubes?  [big grin]