Run out on T18?

[greenwithenvy]

Hi all,

This is my first post on the FOG and I was hoping you could share your wisdom in an area I am struggling with.  Let me first say that I have been using Festool products for over a year and a half now and very pleased with their quality and design.  I have been going back and forth for a few months if I should pull the trigger on a while to compliment the CXS I purchased last year and finally made the plunge this weekend.

As soon as I took the drill home I had a small project to build a custom baby gate to break it in.  As soon as I started I noticing cam out on some screws I was taking out of an old project which really surprised me.  I was using the centrotec in speed #2 but never noticed cam out in the CXS.  Thinking that I must be crazy I switched to the CSX centrotec chuck, then to the jacobs with the same results.

My final analysis was to compare my PC 18v drill running a brand new Kreg robertson bit.  I noticed a considerable amount more run out on the T18 than my PC.

Has anyone else noticed this?  I think that I should probably just take the drill back and see if I can exchange it for a different drill.  Run out is one of those things that makes or breaks a drill for me.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

 

[peter halle]

I would suggest that you take the drill back to the dealer.  You have the thirty days.

Peter

 

[jaymon5]

I measured the runout at the drill spindle of my t18 and it was .0015.  The runout with the centrotec chuck connected and centrotec drill was .003.  This was around the same for the jacobs chuck.  This is understandable knowing that there is some slop with the quick release system.  Using the kreg square drive bit in the adapter will incur even more error being that it is a very loose fit.   

All measured on a granite surface plate with a interapid dial indicator.  For my uses this is more than satisfactory for me.

Can you describe what you mean by cam out.  My understanding of the this term is that the bit and screw are starting to strip.  Based on your comment about the PC, i assume that this is not a problem with that drill?

I agree that if you are not happy with the runout to take it back to the dealer. 

 

[TelcoRandy]

Let me start off by saying I love my Festool Drills, I have a T18, a C15 and a CSX.

But the 1" bits Festool sells (I think they're made by Wiha) are garbage. I thought I had camout issues with one of my drills until I realized the Festool branded Phillips bits were bent/crooked or just not straight (I checked a bunch that came in my SYS 1 CE-SORT USA). I don't know if they were machined that way or not, but if I pop in a regular Robertson bit or a Dewalt bit, then the Centrotec chuck is truly straight (to the eye at least).

A friend of mine needed some Phillips #2 bits for his drywall drill last week so I gave him a few of my Festool ones. HAHA I'm not a good friend.

On an unrelated note to my gripe about the 1" bits, I hear the other longer bits aren't so good either:
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-problems/long-centrotec-bits-rubbish/

Could it just be the bits you're using greenwithenvy? Are they Festool bits? Have you tried others? Anyway, once the bits are ruled out as a problem then I would just return the drill/exchange it for another.

 

[greenwithenvy]

Thank you for the replies, I appreciate the input.  I spent another 30 mins this evening in my garage putting the drill through some additional tests.  I found using the same setup (centrotec bit holder, festool #2 philips) seemed to have more cam out in the T18 than in the PC but it might have been my own mental bias.  I them moved on to test some other tasks like drilling holes because I feel that would be an area that would become very problematic if the end of the bit was wobbling around but I didn't notice any issues.  I compared the wobble of the bit holder and bit from the new T18 to my CXS set in both drills and it does appear that the new setup has more movement at the tip than the one from my CXS.  I might have received a slightly bent bit holder or I might have set my expectations too high because of my experience with the CXS and the $600 price tag of the drill.

jaymon5 - Yes cam out I was referring to the bit popping out of the screw and stripping the head.  I wish I had the equipment to measure the run out to see how it compares to your numbers unfortunately I don't know anyone that has it.  Is this something that they would test before they leave the factory?

TelcoRandy - Yes this is the standard #2 festool bit.  I haven't tried other but it is a good suggestion.  I have some dewalt bits I can try tomorrow.  I am not ready to give up yet until I have exhausted all my options.

 

[bigGaloot]

I too have found that the festool #2 phillips bits are kinda garbage with a lot of screws.  At first I was blaming "garbage drywall screws" but after a couple of projects... realized it was the bits. 

 

[tbellemare]

I'm not suggesting anything with this comment but Phillips bits are designed to cam out.

The drivers/screw heads were developed before on-board torque limiting mechanisms were common. The design was the torque limiter of its day.

With modern power drivers and their adjustable torque limiters, they (Phillips head fasteners) don't really seem like a good alternative to me.

Tom

 

[jaymon5]

I am sorry to hear that the drill is not performing to your expectations.  I am not familiar with the QC process at the festool, but I would hope that they would check for run out at the drill spindle.  I guess that they could check the performance of all the components together in the specific kit (i.e. jacobs chuck, 90 degree attachment, etc..., but it is more likely that they just put all the pieces in the systainer and send it out the door.  To be clear, I took the measurements on the outside of the extension and drill spindle.  I went back to double check the runout at the festool bit and it was much worse.  I checked a assortment of bits (snap-on, wera, wiha, dewalt, festool, and hilt) and while some of them were better they still had some wobble.  I mainly use screws with torx or robertson drive and do not have the cam out problem.

I can tell you that the centrotec drills are rock solid which would point to specific bits or how the individual bits nest in the holders.

Let us know how you get on with the test tomorrow.

   

 

[greenwithenvy]

Ok so I was able to test out a few new Dewalt bit and I am noticing similar results.  I decided to take a few short videos and try and capture what I am seeing.  I have also included a comparison of the CXS which you can see very little movement at the tip of the bit.  I really love that drill...

T18:



CXS comparison:

 

[Claimdude]

Greenwithenvy,

Your T18 looks like my Makita. My T12 looks like your CSX. If my T12 had the run out your T18 does I would return it in a heartbeat.

Jack

 

[jaymon5]

The performance of your drill appears to be more extreme than my T18, although my jacobs chuck sometimes wobbles like that but the run out on the drill bit in minimal.  Are you using the same centrotec adapter in each drill?

 

[TelcoRandy]

Greenwithenvy,

Your T18 looks like my Makita. My T12 looks like your CSX. If my T12 had the run out your T18 does I would return it in a heartbeat.

Jack

I agree with this guy.

 

[tbellemare]

Are you describing perceived runout at the base of the chuck or real runout at the business end?

The first video doesn't fully clarify that.

Tom

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

As was already suggested, we offer a 30-day money back guarantee in the event that a tool doesn't live up to your expectations. You're welcome to exchange or return the drill. Of course, my preference would be that you exchange it.  [smile]

Shane

 

[TelcoRandy]

When I said return it, I really meant to say exchange it too. The T18 is normally a beautiful drill, it's too bad you ended up with one that is wonky.

 

[greenwithenvy]

Thanks for all the input.  This one is going back for an exchange.  I'll keep you posted.

 

[Claimdude]

Greenwithenvy,

Did you exchange your T18 and was the second one up to standard?

I pulled the trigger on a new C15 last week due to my outstanding experience with my other Festool products like the CT22, RO125, TS55and including a T12+3 mentioned in another post in this thread. I got the drill Friday after lunch and tested it out. I am very displeased. The run out on the C15 is as much or more than my two Makita brushless 18v drills (less than 6 months old). I expect run out on Makita, DeWalt, etc but not on a Festool drill. I tested it against my T12+3 side by side and there is no comparison. The T12 runs straight as arrow compared to the C15. I even swapped the centrotec chucks and same result. I used the new Festool philips and drill bit that comes with the set and also tested the Insty robertson bits I use in my T12. I notified Peter at Tool Nut via email within the hour and expect to hear back from them Monday or maybe today about an exchange. The C15 and T12 running side by side look just like Green's videos of his T18 and CXS with my T12 as his CXS and the C15 as his T18.

I also found a problem with the C15 due to my physical limitations so have requested the exchange be for a T15.

I will keep y'all posted.

Jack Lemley

Ok so I was able to test out a few new Dewalt bit and I am noticing similar results.  I decided to take a few short videos and try and capture what I am seeing.  I have also included a comparison of the CXS which you can see very little movement at the tip of the bit.  I really love that drill...

T18:



CXS comparison: