Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)

[sancho57]

My shop isnt as organized as yours but here is  how I hang my guide 1400 guides, PGs and a photo of the spur shelving. You can really store alot on those. My 3000 and 1900 guide rail is on top
[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

 

[rmwarren]

Finally some headway to report!

Sidebar - I love the Thanksgiving weekend around here... business pretty much shuts down on Wednesday, we run errands, cook for a day & a half, host family on Thursday, they all go home and then I have 3 days to work on my stuff. Weather and wife cooperated (I was mainly responsible for running errands, smoking the turkey, and making sure there was enough ice), so it was a great long weekend. I got in about 2 solid days of work and nearly as many hours of standing around contemplating the work. Back on topic...

After agonizing over my options I made up my mind and unloaded the stuff crammed into every square inch and got it out of the way, probably 7 of the 10 pounds (see topic title) had to be moved:

[attachthumb=1]

[attachthumb=2]

Next I cleared out the overhead junk & opened up the ceiling by adding braces to each set of rafters and removing the single old collar tie (it's amazing how well a couple 8p common nails hold in 30 year old lumber!):

[attachthumb=3]

[attachthumb=4]

Finally I roughed in most of the electric and started insulating as I went:

[attachthumb=5]

[attachthumb=6]

[attachthumb=7]

One of the decisions I made was to drop from (5) 24" base cabinets down to (4) and swap them to the short (9'-6") wall, with the remaining space on that wall dedicated to my CT/UDD. The tools/abrasives stored in the cabinet I am losing will end up in the new MFT cart.

Moving the cabinets on the short wall will leave me with an open rectangular floor space ~9'-6" by 9'-6" in which I can move my work benches around in as needed. Where the cabinets were previously located ( on the 11'-6" long wall) reduced the short floor space dimension to only 7'-6" which left me only able to work long material in one direction, this should be much better.

Since I am not ready to install whatever wall board I end up going with I decided to just eliminate it behind the cabinets, which saves a few $$ and lets me deal with the wall sheathing later. The floor drops ~3/4" in 24" out from the wall, so I ran a ledger @ 3-1/4" off the floor, the cabinets will rest on this, be shimmed and screwed to the studs and then I can scribe a 3/4" toe kick to the uneven floor to support the front of the cabinet.

Another of the choices I made was to run all outlets @ 40" above the floor. My standard work surface height will be 37", so the outlets will clear any bench/table I add. I also ran 6" strips of 3/4" plywood blocking @ ~38" height so I have something to attach cabinets/benches to other than the studs.

I decided to run all horizontal electric @ 30" above the floor, A height at which I am unlikely to be screwing anything in the future. as a precaution I am putting nail plates over each wire anyway.

In total I ended up with 5 circuits:

• 15A for the overhead/outside lights
• 20A dedicated to the CT, with outlets in 3 of the 4 corners of the shop
• 20A with outlets @ 40" height, about every 32" around the walls
• 20A run overhead in the ceiling, for drop cord reels and the 110V heater I currently have (this circuit probably won't get used a great deal after I replace the heater)
• 30A/220V with one outlet on the wall and then run overhead for future radiant heat panel (if I need to use the outlet I will shut off the heat if necessary

I also ran the overhead 20A line to a J-box outside and wire-nutted it off, that will serve the future outdoor cooking area. Overhead I plan on (4) 4' fluorescent fixtures, and eventually a 24" by 48" radiant heat panel on the 220V circuit.

Lots more to do but it feels good to have made a start. Now I can't really work in there until the wiring/insulation are completed and the cabinets moved, so this should keep me focused for the next couple weeks of free time.

Thoughts and suggestions are appreciated.

RMW

 

[rvieceli]

Since I am not ready to install whatever wall board I end up going with I decided to just eliminate it behind the cabinets, which saves a few $$ and lets me deal with the wall sheathing later. The floor drops ~3/4" in 24" out from the wall, so I ran a ledger @ 3-3/4" off the floor, the cabinets will rest on this, be shimmed and screwed to the studs and then I can scribe a 3/4" toe kick to the uneven floor to support the front of the cabinet.

Have you considered going ahead and leveling the floor out now that you are redoing? That's only four sheets of ply and some furring strips. Or is it fairly level after the drop?

Not sure how easy it is to get something under your space but you might want to consider running a piece of conduit under the floor and installing a flush floor receptacle in the center of your remaining workspace. Saw that in Marc Spagnuolo's new shop. It's under his MFT and it seems a good way to keep the floor clear of cords and avoiding a drop from the ceiling.

Ron

 

[rmwarren]

Since I am not ready to install whatever wall board I end up going with I decided to just eliminate it behind the cabinets, which saves a few $$ and lets me deal with the wall sheathing later. The floor drops ~3/4" in 24" out from the wall, so I ran a ledger @ 3-3/4" off the floor, the cabinets will rest on this, be shimmed and screwed to the studs and then I can scribe a 3/4" toe kick to the uneven floor to support the front of the cabinet.

Have you considered going ahead and leveling the floor out now that you are redoing? That's only four sheets of ply and some furring strips. Or is it fairly level after the drop?

Not sure how easy it is to get something under your space but you might want to consider running a piece of conduit under the floor and installing a flush floor receptacle in the center of your remaining workspace. Saw that in Marc Spagnuolo's new shop. It's under his MFT and it seems a good way to keep the floor clear of cords and avoiding a drop from the ceiling.

Ron

Had not considered that Ron. The floor is pretty level after that bit near the wall, it has never bothered me nor have I had problems with benches being wobbly, etc.

If the space were any larger I would consider the floor outlet, that's a great idea. In this case however I doubt I will even use a drop cord very often, it was just a case of running the line while the ceiling was open because I could, and because the heater I have now is 110V.

Thanks for the s suggestions.

RMW

 

[Tinker]

My first question is: why does the floor drop 3/4" in the first 24" from the wall and then flattens out?
From there:  Does that happen with both sides of the floor?
If so: I would suspect the floor "timbers" have dropped down until the centers of the joists rest against something more sturdy than air. Is the plywood holding up the joists? A center beam that has also dropped? Are the joists resting on earth in the center?

You are a very thorough worker, so I think you are confident that you have a solid floor base; but I still ask just in case. 
Tinker

 

[rmwarren]

My first question is: why does the floor drop 3/4" in the first 24" from the wall and then flattens out?
From there:  Does that happen with both sides of the floor?
If so: I would suspect the floor "timbers" have dropped down until the centers of the joists rest against something more sturdy than air. Is the plywood holding up the joists? A center beam that has also dropped? Are the joists resting on earth in the center?

You are a very thorough worker, so I think you are confident that you have a solid floor base; but I still ask just in case. 
Tinker

Wayne,

This is a 30 year old stick built shed that was on the property when we bought it. The house was a summer home at the beach, which was not built for winter use. It was not even insulated, to give you an idea of the construction there was no subfloor under the hardwood, it was just nailed to the floor joists and sat 18" over a sand base in the crawl space. Total recipe for rot and mold. We fixed or sistered the original joists when we first raised the house.

At the time we bought the house the shed rested at ground level on some cinder blocks that had been dug in, the floor joists were just Doug fir and rotted out. The first weekend we owned it I ripped out the floor and replaced the joists with PT lumber and new plywood, but I had to fudge and shape the rim joists and hammer them into place in the space between the bottom plates and block. Frankly I never imagined this house would become my primary home or this building would be my shop.

When we moved here full time 5 years later the focus was on expanding and renovating the house, while doing that I dragged the shed 20' to one side of the property and onto a concrete pad we had poured. Later we leveled it at the perimeter but that left the uneven floor.

There is no center beam, the shed/shop is only 10' by 12'. The 10' joists sit in hangers nailed to the rim boards. The rim boards sit on solid CMU blocks resting on the concrete pad. The walls themselves are slightly out of plum & racked, either from the original construction or from when I moved it across the lot. It is not enough to really be a problem, perhaps 1/4" in 8 feet.

I guess the bottom line it things just evolved and there was always something more pressing to worry about. Other then needing the adjust the cabinets to level them the unlevel floor was never really been a problem, and I am A/R enough that if it had been I would have ripped out out and fixed it. I've dealt enough with old buildings now to not get perplexed when thing are a tad out of square.

The floor joists are sturdy enough, there is minimal flex and it causes no problems in use. My focus is really just on finishing the interior.

RMW

 

[Tinker]

Richard, I was pretty sure you had things pretty well understood.  I knew the shed had been moved from a much earlier post.  I know, from experience, about the "getting it done as best we can for the time being" type of jobs.  Been there done that. Our own house is in an area where all the houses were built as summer vacation type living.  I think we are one of the few whose house had been insulated >>>  1" rock wool and fiberboard.  Everything we have done inside has included ripping out all of the interior wall and adding insulation.  Also, like your shed, if you drop a marble on the floor, it will not be where you dropped it. My own shop is over a concrete floor that is as uneven as the waves of the ocean.  To level up, I just put down pressure treated 2x4 with layer of pressure treated plywood over top of them and a layer of CD over that.  Not too many of my benches sit steady on four legs without a shingle or two under one of the legs. That is easier than having tried to shim each and every 2x that had been put down for the base.

I am now experimenting with making my movable cabinets and machine bases three legged.  I am finding that to work quite well.  The one thin I have discovered is to put the single leg (all legs are going on casters) at the back if drawers are involved.  If the third leg is in the front, the whole thing can be a little tippy.  With the third leg in the back, it all remains stable.  I also have put my SCMS onto a sliding table with a lazy susan base on top of the sliding platform.  That way, i can leave the cabinet in one spot with the SCMS tucked back against the wall as much out of the way as possible.  When I need to use the saw, if short pieces to be cut, the machine stays against the wall at 90º to the wall.  If I want to cut longer pieces (not so much necessary anymore since I was introduced to MFT and ATF 55), I pull platform out from wall and rotate.  Roller stands are quicker to set up to handle long ends and I do not need to clear space on the floor to move an entire cabinet.  The set up works for me. [smile]
Tinker

PS  I think I have finally solved my problem with installing pics onto FOG.  I will try to post some pics of the SCMS set up later today.  with rain in forecast, I am running late already, and it is only 3:30am. 
T

 

[Tinker]

The top is how I tuck the saw back into the wall so i have space to walk around between saw and MFT
[attachimg=1]
This is an intermediate position.  I use this when cutting short pieces such a picture frames or borders around cheese boards
[attachimg=2]
This is all the way out.  I do have to pull the MFT out of the way and use a couple of roller stands when breaking down long boards so they are manageable for dimensioning on the MFT.
[attachimg=3]
This is not the easiest setup, but it works for all I need t do.  If i cannot manage a cut with this, or on the MFT, I do the shortening outside.  The longest piece of lumber I can maneuver in to the shop is about 12 feet.  Anything longer must be done outside.

When the platform is pulled all the way out, I lock in place with a clamp and brace underneath with a 2x4.  Otherwise, the weight of the lumber and saw, plus any down pressure needed to hold the board in place will probably bend the runners.  Those are just the heaviest drawer slides i happened to have lying around in the shop when I set this up.
Tinker

 

[aosty]

Nice job!

Was the old single rafter/collar tie at the wall top plate?  I'm thinking about doing something similar in my small shop.

Next I cleared out the overhead junk & opened up the ceiling by adding braces to each set of rafters and removing the single old collar tie (it's amazing how well a couple 8p common nails hold in 30 year old lumber!):

[attachthumb=3]

[attachthumb=4]

 

[rmwarren]

Nice job!

Was the old single rafter/collar tie at the wall top plate?  I'm thinking about doing something similar in my small shop.

Thanks aosty. Yes, the old collar tie was at the top plate, then new ones are about 60" long OAL, the rafters they tie together only span 10' (2 by 4's @ about 2/12 pitch w/ a 2 by 6 ridge) so they should be rigid enough to prevent any sagging/spreading.

RMW

 

[rmwarren]

Made more progress on Sunday - moved the cabinets from the back wall to the right side wall, finished the rough wiring and installed plugs in 2 circuits then fired up those breakers. Total of 17 duplex plugs available now - it is impossible to be out of arm's reach from a plug - Whoot!

[attachthumb=1]

I'm really happy that I decided to relocate the cabinets, the space feels much bigger and is a lot more flexible - I will be able to move the 2 rolling MFT/carts (when completed) around as needed.

Next is finishing the overhead circuits, getting some temporary heat and lights and then competing the insulation, hopefully all next weekend.

After that I can focus on interior sheathing, Although I am still tossed on whether to go cheap (drywall) or splurge and find some T&G pine and put a clear finish on it. I do plan to use French cleats for the wall storage racks and get rid of the overhead cabinets.

RMW

 

[rmwarren]

The top is how I tuck the saw back into the wall so i have space to walk around between saw and MFT
[attachimg=1]
This is an intermediate position.  I use this when cutting short pieces such a picture frames or borders around cheese boards
[attachimg=2]
This is all the way out.  I do have to pull the MFT out of the way and use a couple of roller stands when breaking down long boards so they are manageable for dimensioning on the MFT.
[attachimg=3]
This is not the easiest setup, but it works for all I need t do.  If i cannot manage a cut with this, or on the MFT, I do the shortening outside.  The longest piece of lumber I can maneuver in to the shop is about 12 feet.  Anything longer must be done outside.

When the platform is pulled all the way out, I lock in place with a clamp and brace underneath with a 2x4.  Otherwise, the weight of the lumber and saw, plus any down pressure needed to hold the board in place will probably bend the runners.  Those are just the heaviest drawer slides i happened to have lying around in the shop when I set this up.
Tinker

Wayne, I love that idea. Looks like a combo lazy Susan/drawer slides?

I gave up on having a SCMS in the shop, I did not think I could spare the space to have it stationary and not have to move it every time I wanted to use it, which defeated the purpose for me. Sandy got my 12" miter saw and I never replaced it.

Gonna have to rethink whether I can afford the space penalty to have a SCSM.

Thanks!

RMW

 

[rvieceli]

Richard, I don't know how your code folks are, but here they don't count stuff that hangs off the building but doesn't increase the foundation footprint. Things like a bay window or a bump out.

Can't find a pic right now but I have seen folks that have created a bump out behind the SCMS to make room for the rails and stuff, so they can fit on a smaller space bench top.

 

[Tinker]

Richard, As you can see, i could have saved another 5 or 6" in walk-around space by using a narrower platform under the saw.  It was something i had thought about and just used what i had handy.  I have thought of a way to stiffen the platform with a support that could flip out from the cabinet frame as well. I think I will try that every now and then as I am using the saw, but then i realize how much dust is flying around and i think of a Kap---------- er, I don't even want to mention that.  There are saws that don't take up quite so much room.  I used to have an RAS that actually did not need as much space as the SCMS and I could rig up a dust catcher that took up no extra space.  I even used that in the living room one time with NO extracurricular static.
Tinker

 

[rmwarren]

Richard, I don't know how your code folks are, but here they don't count stuff that hangs off the building but doesn't increase the foundation footprint. Things like a bay window or a bump out.

Can't find a pic right now but I have seen folks that have created a bump out behind the SCMS to make room for the rails and stuff, so they can fit on a smaller space bench top.

Good idea, it's something I once considered as a way of creating a cubby for a compressor or to store a DeWalt contractors saw. Where our codes give me a problem is in setbacks, the shop sits 3' from our fence on 2 sides and I cannot encroach into that setback. Also for practical reasons I want to have room to get around the shop for maintenance, cleanup, etc.

I was looking at another thread on the FOG earlier today showing a Bosch SCMS that does not have the tubes off the rear, it got me thinking. I have to head over the Lowes/HD and measure the saw when it is in the tucked-in position. Now that the space is cleaned out to create some openness I am reluctant to fill it up again... although that is probably inevitable.

RMW

 

[Dan Clark]

Richard,

At one point in the thread, you mentioned a 220V radiant heater.  When I remodeled my garage, I got a small, 220V Electric Utility Heater (pic below).  If you're interested I'll look up the model and vendor, but here's an example: http://www.zoro.com/i/G4703072/?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google_Shopping_Feed&gclid=CLKcr4iwt8ICFRRcfgodyKoAzA

It's not perfect and the thermostat is a bit touchy, but it heats up the garage very quickly.  Overall the garage is about 23 X 22 with a room that's about 7 X 12.  I put in a separate on/off switch so that I could cut the electricity completely.  It's small, unobtrusive, and doesn't get in the way.  Overall, I'm very happy with it.

Might be something to consider.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[rmwarren]

Richard,

At one point in the thread, you mentioned a 220V radiant heater.  When I remodeled my garage, I got a small, 220V Electric Utility Heater (pic below).  If you're interested I'll look up the model and vendor, but here's an example: http://www.zoro.com/i/G4703072/?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google_Shopping_Feed&gclid=CLKcr4iwt8ICFRRcfgodyKoAzA

It's not perfect and the thermostat is a bit touchy, but it heats up the garage very quickly.  Overall the garage is about 23 X 22 with a room that's about 7 X 12.  I put in a separate on/off switch so that I could cut the electricity completely.  It's small, unobtrusive, and doesn't get in the way.  Overall, I'm very happy with it.

Might be something to consider.

Regards,

Dan.

Dan, I actually have one of those exact heaters, just re-discovered it in the crawl space this weekend. I pulled it from my old 24' by 32' shop when we moved. That is probably going to be my "temporary" heater, which in my world tends to become permanent pretty frequently.

I am hoping to one day justify a 2' by 4' radiant panel, I like the heat much more, but they run over $300 and there are other priorities right now. The cost to run them is really low, a 1,280 BTU panel draws 500 watts, @ our rates ($0.11/kWh) it is next to nothing to run all day. Based on my prior experience with a panel twice that size the smaller one should do the trick for my use.

The Dimplex (just checked out of curiosity) draws 5kW & puts out 17K BTU's [eek] - I may end up frying myself.

Thanks for the suggestion, I will let you know if I can stand to be inside the shop when the Dimplex is running. [big grin]

RMW

PS - what the heck is a CAR doing in your workshop???

 

[Tinker]

quote RMW>>>I was looking at another thread on the FOG earlier today showing a Bosch SCMS that does not have the tubes off the rear, it got me thinking. I have to head over the Lowes/HD and measure the saw when it is in the tucked-in position.

 

[Tinker]

Richard, I don't know how your code folks are, but here they don't count stuff that hangs off the building but doesn't increase the foundation footprint. Things like a bay window or a bump out.

Can't find a pic right now but I have seen folks that have created a bump out behind the SCMS to make room for the rails and stuff, so they can fit on a smaller space bench top.

Good idea, it's something I once considered as a way of creating a cubby for a compressor or to store a DeWalt contractors saw. Where our codes give me a problem is in setbacks, the shop sits 3' from our fence on 2 sides and I cannot encroach into that setback. Also for practical reasons I want to have room to get around the shop for maintenance, cleanup, etc.

I was looking at another thread on the FOG earlier today showing a Bosch SCMS that does not have the tubes off the rear, it got me thinking. I have to head over the Lowes/HD and measure the saw when it is in the tucked-in position. Now that the space is cleaned out to create some openness I am reluctant to fill it up again... although that is probably inevitable.

RMW

Richard, how about a flush door or a sliding door.  The flush door could open out when needed and it could be weather stripped. it could even be set up so it could open from inside and still open out.  Un noticeable to anybody until it is opened.

a double door with the bottom flipping down and the top flipping up could work so it never opens out.  Flashing for that could be very unobtrusive (as in not visable).

Of course that Bosch would solve all of the problems i have listed here  :

Whoops! I just now thought of another tale from the past.
As my brother and i had been dropped off at our Uncle's farm for two weeks while our parents sorted out their differences, the stay ended up lasting for 6 years. 

For our first or second Christmas on the farm, we had looked under the tree (which we had helped cut and drag down from the back pasture lot) hoping to find something there from our dad.  Our mom was there and we had already located piles of goodies from her.  When all packages had been opened and wrappers spread all over the floor (I know, nobody else makes that kind of mess), our mom took us out to the barn and showed us a big pile of lumber.  I had noticed the pile as i had been doing chores around and in the barn for over a week, but gave it no thought.  Santa had sunk into the barn over nite Christmas eve and tied a big ribbon around the pile with a card from Dad.  The card promised that he would come to the farm (The uncle was really his uncle, so our great uncle) for two weeks in July.  He would help us to build a tree house.

I, especially, was excited.  I had always been interested it "playing" with tools and wood.  My brother was excited as well, but his artistic endeavors were more in the line of paint brushes and paint. 

As we commenced with construction, we got to talking about fighting off indians and cattle rustlers and maybe even pirates.  In those days, it was alright, and maybe even encouraged, for kids to play with toy guns and make believe shooting at the bad guys.  Of course, after watching the shooter up western that played for the entertainment of all on Starday afternoon, we all wanted to be the bad guys.  Those guys had more freedom and a lot less responsibility.  As we worked and talked, our Dad quietly framed in some windows that opened out, some opened in and some were sliders.  Even the door had a slot with slider in it for shotgun or blunderbuss to stick out for protection.  We even ended up with a little door, not unlike a pet door today, where we could sneak in or out, depending on the direction of battle. 

We never did come under attack, but it was great when the two of us and a few friends would go up "on the hill" with sandwiches and soda, or sometimes stayed all nite, we talked about fighting Indians and rustlers.  Sometimes, when it was time to bring the cows down tot the barn at milking time, it was my job to bring them.  I loved working with the animals.  I of course, became the rustler along with maybe one or two others, while the rest devised ways to head us off at the pass.  Of course, "the rustlers" were never headed off and the cattle ended up penned in the thieves barn.

So, RMW, you see, I have had lots of experience with openings in the side of buildings.  : [unsure]
Tinker

 

[rmwarren]

Richard, I don't know how your code folks are, but here they don't count stuff that hangs off the building but doesn't increase the foundation footprint. Things like a bay window or a bump out.

Can't find a pic right now but I have seen folks that have created a bump out behind the SCMS to make room for the rails and stuff, so they can fit on a smaller space bench top.

Good idea, it's something I once considered as a way of creating a cubby for a compressor or to store a DeWalt contractors saw. Where our codes give me a problem is in setbacks, the shop sits 3' from our fence on 2 sides and I cannot encroach into that setback. Also for practical reasons I want to have room to get around the shop for maintenance, cleanup, etc.

I was looking at another thread on the FOG earlier today showing a Bosch SCMS that does not have the tubes off the rear, it got me thinking. I have to head over the Lowes/HD and measure the saw when it is in the tucked-in position. Now that the space is cleaned out to create some openness I am reluctant to fill it up again... although that is probably inevitable.

RMW

Richard, how about a flush door or a sliding door.  The flush door could open out when needed and it could be weather stripped. it could even be set up so it could open from inside and still open out.  Un noticeable to anybody until it is opened.

a double door with the bottom flipping down and the top flipping up could work so it never opens out.  Flashing for that could be very unobtrusive (as in not visable).

Of course that Bosch would solve all of the problems i have listed here  :

Whoops! I just now thought of another tale from the past.
As my brother and i had been dropped off at our Uncle's farm for two weeks while our parents sorted out their differences, the stay ended up lasting for 6 years. 

For our first or second Christmas on the farm, we had looked under the tree (which we had helped cut and drag down from the back pasture lot) hoping to find something there from our dad.  Our mom was there and we had already located piles of goodies from her.  When all packages had been opened and wrappers spread all over the floor (I know, nobody else makes that kind of mess), our mom took us out to the barn and showed us a big pile of lumber.  I had noticed the pile as i had been doing chores around and in the barn for over a week, but gave it no thought.  Santa had sunk into the barn over nite Christmas eve and tied a big ribbon around the pile with a card from Dad.  The card promised that he would come to the farm (The uncle was really his uncle, so our great uncle) for two weeks in July.  He would help us to build a tree house.

I, especially, was excited.  I had always been interested it "playing" with tools and wood.  My brother was excited as well, but his artistic endeavors were more in the line of paint brushes and paint. 

As we commenced with construction, we got to talking about fighting off indians and cattle rustlers and maybe even pirates.  In those days, it was alright, and maybe even encouraged, for kids to play with toy guns and make believe shooting at the bad guys.  Of course, after watching the shooter up western that played for the entertainment of all on Starday afternoon, we all wanted to be the bad guys.  Those guys had more freedom and a lot less responsibility.  As we worked and talked, our Dad quietly framed in some windows that opened out, some opened in and some were sliders.  Even the door had a slot with slider in it for shotgun or blunderbuss to stick out for protection.  We even ended up with a little door, not unlike a pet door today, where we could sneak in or out, depending on the direction of battle. 

We never did come under attack, but it was great when the two of us and a few friends would go up "on the hill" with sandwiches and soda, or sometimes stayed all nite, we talked about fighting Indians and rustlers.  Sometimes, when it was time to bring the cows down tot the barn at milking time, it was my job to bring them.  I loved working with the animals.  I of course, became the rustler along with maybe one or two others, while the rest devised ways to head us off at the .  Of course, "the rustlers" were never headed off and the cattle ended up penned in the thieves barn.

So, RMW, you see, I have had lots of experience with openings in the side of buildings.  : [unsure]
Tinker

Wayne, I'd swear you ginned up the "slider opening in my shop" idea to have an excuse to tell that story!  [poke]

I need to make a pilgrimage up there to, ahem, tour your shop to get ideas. Doubtless we would end up sitting on the porch swapping tales, and doubtless you would have many more than I do. That would be a fun afternoon.

Thanks for the story.

RMW