Split Top Roubo Bench Build

Tinker said:
Luke, You are still running a good, er, GREAT class.
I am learning from your ideas and especially, from the problems you are running into and how you are solving.
Tinker

Thanks Wayne.
The babinga really ticked me off.  I'm concerned how the end cap will come out.
Have to look for a pro either on FOG or Lumberjocks.
The number 5 is a high angle and I can see tear because of that.  (At least I think high angle is bad for hard grains)  Anyway my low angle block didn't do any better.

I was getting full shavings but there are sections that just rip.  Guess that why I'm building a bench that is predominantly used for planing.
 
>>>The number 5 is a high angle and I can see tear because of that.  (At least I think high angle is bad for hard grains)  Anyway my low angle block didn't do any better.

I was getting full shavings but there are sections that just rip.  Guess that why I'm building a bench that is predominantly used for planing.
 
When i was at U-Conn Ag school ( two year course animal husbandry) some of us got involved in a tractor rodeo. I was not as experienced as some of the others, but managed to be first substitute. Some others were involved with judging and several other aggie types of competitions. Together, we managed to win a few trophies.  It was known to some of my closest buddies that i had taken wood shop while in HS.  Those years, i had all the best machines to work with and often stayed after school to help with sharpening of any hand tools.  I was allowed to hide away the sharpest tools so had all the advantages during those days.

With trophies piling up from our escapades, something had to be done for display.  I was sort of "volunteered" to make a set of shelves.  The only place I had to work was in my mother's kitchen.  Just a kitchen table (large very well built trestle that a carpenter friend had built for my mom.  a long history to that table, but my son has been remodeling his own kitchen to remove all memories of his "Ex" and will soon be transporting it from Leesburg, Virginia), some chairs and a couple of saw horses that i had made on a job.  No clamps other than a couple of wood handscrews.  I had a #4-1/2 smoother that I managed to do a decent job on knotty pine.  Because i was only working on the shelves at nite (worked as a mason's helper/apprentice 6 days.  Sundays building a boat.) the lumber was piled on the kitchen floor.  It had been "off the shelf" from the local lumber yard and delivered with no special attention to grain or even warpage.  I had never worked under all the conditions i had presented myself with.

Soon, as i got into the pile, i was realizing all sorts of problems with warpage and cupping.  with no decent clamps, I determined I could straighten out a lot of problems with my old #4-1/2 smoother.  (I still have the plane and have recently given it a full treatment tune up) I started piling up huge piles of "curles" on the kitchen floor.  My mom put up with a lot in those days.  Carpentry  cluttering the kitchen.  I was into fishing, and early spring, the living room was cluttered with fishing tackle preps for opening day trout season.  Nobody could move in either room.  I had some chickens that I managed to feed well enough that i had sold eggs in the neighborhood all during my HS years.  I had stored the chicken feed in a closet next to the bathroom.  The front lawn usually had a car in various forms of disrepair with parts scattered over and under heavy tarps all over the lawn.

Anyhow, back to the shelves.  With no collection of clamps, and no desire to purchase same, i managed to do the planing by butting across or on top of the horses and butting ends of boards against the kitchen wall.  With cupping and warping, and a deadline to finish the shelves before i was scheduling tearing down the kitchen and building new in the spring to finish before going on vacation with my uncle (That would be Uncle Sam and for two years) I finally put together a set of shelves that, today, would not have put my name on, nor did i sign the job back then.  Some of those boards had been whittled down to nearly a quarter inch (maybe a slight exaggeration on the thickness, but not by much if my memory serves me well at 39 years of age  ::))thickness at centers of cupping,  Somehow, i had been able to disguise the problems and had managed, with two hands crew clamps, screws and nails and glue to finish off  a set of shelves that held together for a 100 mile trip tied to the top of my car.  The guys at Hicks Dorm thought it was great.  so great that I had to stay in the dorm overnite after partaking of rather copious quantities of celebratory liquids.  Two years later, i visited the dorm to find none of my old budies still there, altho a couple had moved over to the four year course.  I was very much surprised to find "my" old shelves still there and loaded with trophies.  Just the fact it held together was my trophy.  I have never built anything, before, or since, that i had fully expected to fall apart as i had expected that case to self destruct.  But it had survived both the load of trophies and some rather tough partying as i could see signs of nicks and dings all over along with "water" rings from countless wet bottles and glasses (Aggies drink a lot of water and milk you know) having been stored on of the shelves among the trophies. 

I have not been back there since and i imagine that trophy case has been used for kindling wood or a bon fire by now.
Tinker
 
A great story Wayne,

Good tips on poor quality chisels, wood, etc.  Makes sense.  Tablesaw Tom shipped my planes yesterday.  I think they will arrive tomorrow.  I can't wait to see them flattened and squared.  I may sell the No.2  on eBay. I should be able to get something north of $200, as the No2's are in demand.  I want something I can use and my hands are too big for it.  I'll replace it with either a skew rabbet, or a low angle jack.  I want a No4 1/2 but it's low on the list right now.  I also want a carcass saw.  I love the Japanese saw but I need a good saw with a spline.

My story from back in the early 70's....  I'm about 10 years old.  Dad had a Shopsmith in the basement and I would watch him work.  I  asked if I could try using it.  "Sure"  and he left.  I just mimicked what he did and used the table saw, jointer, drill press and lathe.  Today dad would be incarcerated of child endangerment.
 
iamnothim said:
My story from back in the early 70's....  I'm about 10 years old.  Dad had a Shopsmith in the basement and I would watch him work.  I  asked if I could try using it.  "Sure"  and he left.  I just mimicked what he did and used the table saw, jointer, drill press and lathe.  Today dad would be incarcerated of child endangerment.

Amen to that. My father was a framing and finish carpenter, built houses in Las Vegas when I was a kid (it was union work then, with benefits and all) and built our house, from foundation & framing to cabinets, in his spare time.

He sat in the garage chaperoning me during one of my earliest projects ("Hey dad, I want to build a bar for my bedroom...") and his approach was to sit quietly until I was just about to lop off an appendage, & then chime in with advice.

Never mind why a 14 year old kid needed a bar in his bedroom  ::), dad was an unquestioning kind of guy. When I turned 18 and moved into a $200/MO apartment with a buddy we had between us (1) large bar, (1) king size waterbed and (1) sleeping bag, (2) nice stereo systems and hundreds of rock albums, some wooden crates for shelves and a blender. Talk about living large.

RMW
 
Richard/RMW said:
iamnothim said:
My story from back in the early 70's....  I'm about 10 years old.  Dad had a Shopsmith in the basement and I would watch him work.  I  asked if I could try using it.  "Sure"  and he left.  I just mimicked what he did and used the table saw, jointer, drill press and lathe.  Today dad would be incarcerated of child endangerment.

Amen to that. My father was a framing and finish carpenter, built houses in Las Vegas when I was a kid (it was union work then, with benefits and all) and built our house, from foundation & framing to cabinets, in his spare time.

He sat in the garage chaperoning me during one of my earliest projects ("Hey dad, I want to build a bar for my bedroom...") and his approach was to sit quietly until I was just about to lop off an appendage, & then chime in with advice.

Never mind why a 14 year old kid needed a bar in his bedroom  ::), dad was an unquestioning kind of guy. When I turned 18 and moved into a $200/MO apartment with a buddy we had between us (1) large bar, (1) king size waterbed and (1) sleeping bag, (2) nice stereo systems and hundreds of rock albums, some wooden crates for shelves and a blender. Talk about living large.

RMW

I did sort of the same with my son.  I taught him all about how to run tractors, loaders, backhoes, trucks and anything else that spewed smoke and NOISE.  It was somewhat dangerous for a tyke to be operating a monster machine, but it would have been a fight to keep him off or away, so I taught him.  When he was old enough for lifting heavy weights (my estimate, not the law's decree), i let him build terraces and other low to earth jobs.  Those, i would show him how to do and give him a rough (very extremely rough) sketch or boundaries of some kind. when i was sure he was on the right track, i would go to another job to work, or talk with customer or anything that would take me a couple of hours.  I would then return and either pat him on the back for a great job, or tell him of all the mistooks and make hime tear it apart.  That sort of teaching generally cost me money for the tearing apart and redoing, but he learned, and learned well.

With back hoe and grading with machinery, He dug many a hole to precise measurements and then filled and regraded.  He dug many a trench with his old man down in the hole doing the handwork. I tried teaching a few other "kids" doing the same leave and comeback to tear apart.  some could not stand such discipline, but most of them did learn by their mistooks. i have examples of good workers in several of the trade, many of whom have seen me somewhere along the way, come to me and thanked me for teaching them.  Those are the times that make a lot of work, and even some arguments along the way, really worth while.

Today, i might get into a heap of trouble for the way i worked and taught kids.  My son has had the whistle blown on him for allowing his son to run machinery on a couple of jobs.  The cops threatened to shut him down.
I, in my turn, was taught pretty much the same way by folks who loved me and the feelings were reciprocal.

Tinker
 
Richard/RMW said:
Never mind why a 14 year old kid needed a bar in his bedroom  ::), dad was an unquestioning kind of guy. When I turned 18 and moved into a $200/MO apartment with a buddy we had between us (1) large bar, (1) king size waterbed and (1) sleeping bag, (2) nice stereo systems and hundreds of rock albums, some wooden crates for shelves and a blender. Talk about living large.

RMW
My dad never watched.  He joked that he had a revolving account at the emergency room.

Stereo....  I want vinyl again but I can't afford another hobby.  I ripped 200 of my neighbors LP's to flac.  They sound amazing.
Here's a little something I built a couple years back.  The "darn Good 300B"  I'd have to relearn everything about it if I had to build another one.  It's vanished from my memory.  I get in the groove learning something, then if I leave it, poof, it's gone.

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Back to Roubo Benches.

I now have 11 babinga dogs and 12 maple dogs with babinga trim.  I spent most of the day making a jig of my own design to trim them using a spiral trim bit.

The jig was supposed to be a time saver.  I could have trimmed them faster with my teeth.  I used the parallel guides to cut the maple dogs and then I attached the extensions and cut the 3mm maple springs.  I love that apparatus.

Next I set up the CMS with a 1/2” spiral bit.  First the babinga. Dog jig? Fail.  The bit is being introduced with 1” (24mm) of end grain.  Not a good thing.  Same thing with the maple.  Chucked it right out.  I switched to a 1/4” spiral bit.  A little better, still on the maple, but it’s hard to make small passes with a 1/4” bit.  I already know what the results will be on the babinga.

I’m going to have to take out the bulk of the material before routing.  That will not be easy.  Band saw, no gots.

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I found a band saw.....
Fail
Fresh start tomorrow.

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Luke. Isn't that a downcut bit? I think the up/down is designated from the hand help prospect of the router.  Especially, with the small pieces you are working with, I am wondering if it would be better to be using an uncut bit that will have more tendency to pull against the wood instead of pushing up.  My thought is that you are pushing against unstable pressure from above >>> your hands and weight of material.  with an uncut bit, being upside down for your use, you are pulling the material down towards a very stable support of the router table.

I am not 100% sure on this from a position of having had experience.  I do not have any down cut bits in my arsenal, only a few up cuts. They seem to work ok when routing half laps and mortices on the CMS.  I have never tried a down cut bit, so my thoughts are only from what i think.  Try a bit with spiral opposite to what you are using.

Tinker

 
Tinker said:
Luke. Isn't that a downcut bit? I think the up/down is designated from the hand help prospect of the router.  Especially, with the small pieces you are working with, I am wondering if it would be better to be using an uncut bit that will have more tendency to pull against the wood instead of pushing up.  My thought is that you are pushing against unstable pressure from above >>> your hands and weight of material.  with an uncut bit, being upside down for your use, you are pulling the material down towards a very stable support of the router table.

I am not 100% sure on this from a position of having had experience.  I do not have any down cut bits in my arsenal, only a few up cuts. They seem to work ok when routing half laps and mortices on the CMS.  I have never tried a down cut bit, so my thoughts are only from what i think.  Try a bit with spiral opposite to what you are using.

Tinker

Hmmm.
Good observation, it is a downcut bit and that makes sense.

I do not have an upcut bit.  I am working on stabilizing the piece so I can remove material with a jig saw.

Thanks!
 
Good Gawd almightee, Luke!  Watching your trials and tribulations on your bench dawgs makes me very grateful indeed to have a bandsaw and tablesaw.  It took but an hour to make my dogs.  I tried using a router and MFS just for something different but ultimately went back to the ole tried and true.  One thing for sure, your skill set is expanding. 
 
Jim Kirkpatrick said:
Good Gawd almightee, Luke!  Watching your trials and tribulations on your bench dawgs makes me very grateful indeed to have a bandsaw and tablesaw.  It took but an hour to make my dogs.  I tried using a router and MFS just for something different but ultimately went back to the ole tried and true.  One thing for sure, your skill set is expanding.

Usually the spiral bits perform magnificently, except for hard end grain.  I was making some cherry table legs and ran into the same thing.  I'm trying to remove too much material.  Even when entering the workpiece in the middle to shave it down doesn't work.

I dug out an up-cut bit [member=550]Tinker[/member] suggested and it was better....  until you approach too much end grain again.  I'm going to fab something to hold the workpiece so I can get jiggy on it.  It sure would be great if Festool made a plate that would mount a Carvex in a CMS table.  Wait a second!!!!!  If my name was Hans I could order one.

Doggie booboo
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Luke, When I decided to get a bandsaw, it was sort of a spur of the moment decision. My toy store (at the time) was about to close its doors.  They had a Reliant BS for what i thought was a good price (translated = cheeeeep).  i thought i would have little use for one, but bought it anyhow.

After the second or third use, i began to think I might find more uses than i had thought.  This past week, i needed some wedges.  I generally save any scraps that come out wedge shaped, no matter what the size.  I found none to match.  Soooo >>>> fired up the bandsaw and ran a few scraps thru the blade and voila!  Perfect!  Well, not quiiite perefect.  I had cut them free hand.  After a couple of minutes with a couple of files, they were a perfec fit.  Just about the 100th use i have found for that old monster.  I don't miss my table saw for anything except maby cutting dados, but that BS just keeps advising me to keep it around for  >>> well >>> forever.
Tinker
 
Tinker said:
Luke, When I decided to get a bandsaw, it was sort of a spur of the moment decision. My toy store (at the time) was about to close its doors.  They had a Reliant BS for what i thought was a good price (translated = cheeeeep).  i thought i would have little use for one, but bought it anyhow.

After the second or third use, i began to think I might find more uses than i had thought.  This past week, i needed some wedges.  I generally save any scraps that come out wedge shaped, no matter what the size.  I found none to match.  Soooo >>>> fired up the bandsaw and ran a few scraps thru the blade and voila!  Perfect!  Well, not quiiite perefect.  I had cut them free hand.  After a couple of minutes with a couple of files, they were a perfec fit.  Just about the 100th use i have found for that old monster.  I don't miss my table saw for anything except maby cutting dados, but that BS just keeps advising me to keep it around for  >>> well >>> forever.
Tinker

Ya I know.
My wish list has a band saw and a jointer on it.  I can live without the table saw.  Too big.
Here Marc made a 7 degree jig to cut the large dovetails....

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