Squaring the MFT/3

[Michael Kellough]

Very strange, It seems Dave is using the 60mm Super Dogs and shows it clearing with 19mm board and says it will work on smaller boards somehow ... starts talking about 6m in and cuts around 7m.

[member=59331]TSO Products[/member], do you mean it will not clear if you use it without the guide rail?  Isn't Dave using the Super Dog with 19mm plywood and clearing it?  I believe he says you'll have the same clearance with thinner plywood which I don't get but good to know the facts before buying the wrong product.

If the housing clears 60mm on a 19mm workpiece then there will be even more clearance above a thinner workpiece.

Thicker workpiece=more plunge so the housing will be closer to the table surface. So, what is the minimum workpiece thickness to clear the 40mm tall Stubby dog? We’re talking about this in connection (puns accepted) with using the rail clips and dogs so use of a rail is included.

How is there more clearance with a thinner workpiece?  If the dog is 60mm above the table and the stock is 19mm and the fence is ~5mm, the dog would protrude 36mm above the fence whereas with a 16mm stock it would protrude 39mm making it closer to the saw???

Sorry for the confusion, I was thinking of the HK saws instead of the TS saws.

On the HK saws the thinner the stock the higher the housing (assuming you only just cut thru).

On the TS saws stock thickness makes very little difference in motor housing clearance since the pivot point is about the same altitude as the bottom of the motor housing, so you’re right, thinner stock means an adjacent dog will sit higher relative to the saw/rail.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.
I don't mean this bad, really not, but 265 USD ? Did someone of the marketing/sales department dropped om their head? Whats under that beautifully blue finish, gold?  [eek]

I hope not, but I find this type of pricing really of the chart  [scared]

Maybe just me  :-[

I think, like pricing for new drugs, it has to do with recovering the R&D costs, in addition to making a profit on the sales.

 

[tallgrass]

There nothing wrong with saying the pricing of a tool or instrument is too high. However what is often overlooked is the scale production. when you start to talk about precision and limited production, things start to get expensive. I would say, as they should. We have become too used to slave labor pricing. There are all price points out there and this choice is a good thing. Imagine if only the cheap were available?  Just like there is IKEA and bespoke furniture. I am not certain, however I would expect TSO's margins might  not be as high as many would think. Having said that, I am a fan of people benefiting from the risk and effort they put into their endeavors and reaping the benefits of the same. This keeps products and services coming.

 

[threesixright]

[member=57948]ChuckM[/member] and [member=2242]tallgrass[/member]

I get it, R&D and scale. Of course it's a good point. But let's be honest, a C18 drill costs 320 USD (MSRP, yes much larger volumes...). Very hard to imagine the costs for a piece of aluminium square has that much of R&D. Its a (speed)square for crying out loud [emoji12]  Metal speedsquare on amazon, 15 USD. Not 200+, this is one is nice, granted (!), yet....not in the coming 264+ years [emoji6]

I get more a feeling, that their view is: people buying into (the expensive) Festool brand, have deeper wallets . Well, thats my take. This is a ridiculous price and my gut feeling, they shoot themselves in the foot. They would sell more, if they land back on planet earth.

BTW not want to hijack this thread, but when TSO is pushing their own solution...

Just MHO.

 

[peter halle]

Well, I am not associated with TSO but I have had conversations away from the forum.  Premium products come with a cost and Festool users have high expectations.  Innovation has a cost and when you need to meet expectations - or exceed - the machining requires the precision normally reserved for aerospace and medical manufacturing.  That isn't cheap.

I can assure you that the break even point on the squares is far into the future.

Want to play?  Gotta pay.

Or make it yourself.

Peter

 

[dicktill]

[member=57948]ChuckM[/member] and [member=2242]tallgrass[/member]

I get it, R&D and scale. Of course it's a good point. But let's be honest, a C18 drill costs 320 USD (MSRP, yes much larger volumes...). Very hard to imagine the costs for a piece of aluminium square has that much of R&D. Its a (speed)square for crying out loud [emoji12]  Metal speedsquare on amazon, 15 USD. Not 200+, this is one is nice, granted (!), yet....not in the coming 264+ years [emoji6]

I get more a feeling, that their view is: people buying into (the expensive) Festool brand, have deeper wallets . Well, thats my take. This is a ridiculous price and my gut feeling, they shoot themselves in the foot. They would sell more, if they land back on planet earth.

BTW not want to hijack this thread, but when TSO is pushing their own solution...

Just MHO.

The last time Woodpeckers had an 18" precision triangle (one time tool) for sale, it was $189.99 without an MDF case, and it had a lot less functionality than this TSO one. I have both ...

 

[threesixright]

[member=41421]Peter[/member] & [member=18203]dicktill[/member]

Appreciate your explanation! As an entrepreneur myself I do understand your points and to an extend I fully agree.

However, I don't believe the they cut each by hand. Probably this is done on a CNC and then coated. Now I might be wrong (probably am..), but -besides the costs of R&D- this unit production costs feels more ~ 25 USD. I would be surprised if would be much more. Too recoup your R&D is matter of how many do you think you can see sold, on the long run. Festool sold a lot of rails, and the change their design will change is low. So potentially there is a good market for this (I do see the value of a square).

Other than Festool, they have hardly any support to give or updates to make. It also works with a few other brands. Basically a pretty simple product (no offence), yet it costs as much as an Festool drill. Now, the R&D costs of making a cordless drill is on a different scale:  Electronics (design, certifications), housing, packaging, warranty, testing, overhead. etc. That seems to be a substantial number  Either way you turn it, a 'speed' square has very little of all that.

I don't want to convince any of you, I just try to send a message to TSO that with this price point, they will miss out a lot on sales. If I see how many people here on FOG talk about 'expensive' FT, I can't hardly imagine, many shell out 265 USD for a square.

I'm not trying to bash TSO or want to put them in any bad daylight. I think they make very nice products! But a price goes hand in hand with a 'perceived value'. I don't see it. Guessing, I'm not alone.

 

[Sparktrician]

[member=60777]Bugsysiegals[/member] - we have a better solution for that application. Its called TDS-10 and will be introduced weekend of May 4/5 - look for it two weeks from now.

Hans

I see that the TDS-10 is now available from TSO Products!  [smile] 

 

[ChuckM]

Not meant to belittle the new product TDS-10, but how could it be anywhere as quick as using a holdfast (costing as low as $31 Cdn) for securing work for the domino joiner in a typical mortising job?

"A simple solution: deploy several TDS-10 Dog Stops™ and some conventional dogs to capture the work piece. Cut the required mortises in all identical pieces. Reposition for the remaining mortises, and you’re done."

 

[Klemm]

the TDS-10 topic is posted on its own thread in the Dealer Sales area or just enter the thread name in the FOG SEARCH box.
                        "new TDS-10 Dog Stop from TSO"

Hans

 

[Cheese]

I think there’s some confusion over the price differences between aluminum plate and cast aluminum tooling plate. The TSO and Woodpeckers 18” squares are machined from cast aluminum tooling plate. If MIC 6 or Alca 5 cast tooling plate is used, the raw material cost alone is over $50. That’s before it’s even been cut to size. Throw in set-up & set-up time, CNC time, initial QA inspection of the fully machined part, decorative anodization, laser marking, final QA inspection and packaging and that captures most of the immediate costs. However you still have to add in any shipping back-charges, any spoilage and don’t forget the associated R&D costs to arrive at the final product price.

These are guaranteed to be square within .001” over the 18” length. That’s 1/3 the thickness of a human hair.

Twenty years ago if someone manufactured one of these on a Bridgeport, you’d be paying $1500 for this item.

 

[Klemm]

Thanks Hans.  Did you mean the track saw will not clear the Parf Long Super Dog (120mm projection) but will clear the Parf Super Dog (60mm projection)?

What plunge depth/material thickness allows the housing to clear 40mm?

I stand corrected. The Parf Super Dog will clear the motor housing when cutting 3/4 inch material as Dave Stanton's video shows.  I have not been able to set aside time to personally vewrify how much material depth cutting will clear our Stubby Dog. Will remain on my Task List until its done.
Hans