This does not only happen to other people / CTL / FIRE

[lousse]

This does not only happen to other people

I was routing grooves in an oak board with my OF2200 and started smelling an unusual smell.

Something was obviously wrong…

It took me few terrifyingly long seconds to notice smoke coming out of my old CTL22.

With the electrical cord and the hose unplugged, I took it outside the shop, opened it, and here is what I found.

(Picture attached)

First I thought it was the motor, but look at those burning marks!
Seems to me like the fire came from the hose, directly from the router.

I still do not know if I want to repair or change the burnt part or throw the CTL away.

Any idea on how to explain what might have happened?

What’s your recommended path forward? Would you keep it?

Would a cyclone have protected the CTL?

Any advice is welcome!

 

[lousse]

CTL body

 

[lousse]

Longlife bag

 

[Michael Kellough]

A piece of ferrous metal embedded in the board?

 

[tjbnwi]

Could have been the bit was a little dual causing enough friction to start the chips smoldering. I’ve had smoldering chips in grooves/dados I’ve routed.

Tom

 

[lousse]

Well it possibly be both, the board came from a new supplier and the bit was a bit worn !

 

[mino]

Filters, body, hose, probably not worth to repair it.

Probably best to either buy another broken one, combining into one good vac. Or selling yours to someone who has one with a dead motor etc.

As for the cyclone, with a CT-VA being transparent,the fire would be visible and likely get contained there as well - not enough chips to sustain the fire left in the air existing the cyclone.

But a dead cyclone and a dead hose, so not sure it would turn out better economically.

 

[WastedP]

The new Autopass feature on the Shaper Origin has changed my habits.  Normally between passes, I would pull off the vac hose and clean out the work.  Last week I was routing a 1" deep pocket in cedar with an 8mm compression bit and when I retracted out of it, there was a bright cherry of packed sawdust smoldering down in the cut.  The vac only helps to stoke it.  I didn't have any burning in the vac, but that is probably only because the bag was extremely full and suction was reduced.

 

[luvmytoolz]

But a dead cyclone and a dead hose, so not sure it would turn out better economically.

Could just get a Dust Deputy, very cheap and more effective than the CT-VA from all accounts.

I run all my machines and tools off several of them in my sheds, works a treat.

 

[ChuckM]

The filter looked dust caked. Has it ever been replaced? The HEPA filter might have been non-functioning all this time, giving you a false sense of protection.

 

[squall_line]

The new Autopass feature on the Shaper Origin has changed my habits.  Normally between passes, I would pull off the vac hose and clean out the work.  Last week I was routing a 1" deep pocket in cedar with an 8mm compression bit and when I retracted out of it, there was a bright cherry of packed sawdust smoldering down in the cut.  The vac only helps to stoke it.  I didn't have any burning in the vac, but that is probably only because the bag was extremely full and suction was reduced.

Honest question, but do you think that the packed, smoldering sawdust would have been mitigated or eliminated if the bag hadn't been full and you would have had full suction?  Or is the dust extraction from the Shaper Origin that finicky/weak?

 

[Michael Kellough]

The new Autopass feature on the Shaper Origin has changed my habits.  Normally between passes, I would pull off the vac hose and clean out the work.  Last week I was routing a 1" deep pocket in cedar with an 8mm compression bit and when I retracted out of it, there was a bright cherry of packed sawdust smoldering down in the cut.  The vac only helps to stoke it.  I didn't have any burning in the vac, but that is probably only because the bag was extremely full and suction was reduced.

Honest question, but do you think that the packed, smoldering sawdust would have been mitigated or eliminated if the bag hadn't been full and you would have had full suction?  Or is the dust extraction from the Shaper Origin that finicky/weak?

Filter might have just gotten a dose of dust from the hole burned through the bag.

 

[Holzhacker]

Having worked with a lot of Oak over the years I would put this down to an Oak problem.
Oak loves to get really hot and smoke during routing, at least for me.

 

[luvmytoolz]

I don't take any particular care of my cutters, and generally run them into the ground until they break. Having said that the only times I've ever smoking issues with wood with the CNC, are when the suction pretty much dropped to zero as the extractor was full and the router bit was ramping/cutting through swarf. Waste wood can get hot pretty quickly in that situation.

 

[WastedP]

Honest question, but do you think that the packed, smoldering sawdust would have been mitigated or eliminated if the bag hadn't been full and you would have had full suction?  Or is the dust extraction from the Shaper Origin that finicky/weak?

Because of the fire in the hole, I opened up the vac to see if anything was going on in there, and that's when I decided the disposable bag was way overfull.  It probably weighed 20+ pounds.  I changed the bag and went back to work, and I can say that you are 100% right, the difference in dust removal was night and day.  I doubt enough tinder would've built up if I had changed it prior.

 

[mino]

Because of the fire in the hole, I opened up the vac to see if anything was going on in there, and that's when I decided the disposable bag was way overfull.  It probably weighed 20+ pounds.  I changed the bag and went back to work, and I can say that you are 100% right, the difference in dust removal was night and day.  I doubt enough tinder would've built up if I had changed it prior.

Yep, this is one of the few instances where an M-class vac (with a flow sensor set to D36 hose when using D27 one) or a CT-VA where one can see how it is full are a godsend.

Having a CT-VA as well as M-class with sensor. I would rather have a CT-VA with a non-sensor CTL to having a CTM with no CT-VA. I need to change the bag so little, that I know when the bag is close to 80% reliably just by opening it every other month or so.

OT
-------
Agree on earlier comment how a DD works the same. It would, with the exception you cannot easily see how full it is unless you invest a lot into a clear bin. So either a lot of opening the bin, or you end up with a full bag all the same.

The reason the CT-VA is so expensive is, in no small part, due to the clear bin being included - that bin alone costs $70 and there is a reason for that cost. It needs to be able to handle the vacuum so there goes a lot of R&D and a lot of quality material to it. Then there are the custom systainer pieces which are 1/2 the cost. If you do not care for these - DD does not provide them after all - then just get the AS cyclone unit for $90 and DYI it the same way a DD would need to be DYIed.

To use the CT-VA cyclone unit itself, all one needs is a wooden box or a bin with a circular hole in the top plus a couple pieces of ply to pressure-hold the top in place. Not much different to a DD integration setup. And you get an anti-static cyclone to boot. If you like to DYI, that is.

What you get for $390 is a complete system which is plug & play. The DD Deluxe does offer that at $140. But it is not anti-static and is incomparably bulky. In a big shop with lots of space, or when one needs high air volume (DD 2.5 is definitely better there). Sure. It has its place on the market and I think going 2.5 was a great move by Oneida. *)

But it would be good if folks stopped pretending DD is some great value compared to the CT-VA. It is not. It is a low-end product made of cheap materials with minimum to no R&D effort **) and no integration in the design whatsoever. As that, it is reasonably priced. The same way the CT-VA is reasonably priced for what it provides. As a whole product.

This is the same way that buying raw construction lumber is a "better value" when you need it for a roof design where the twisting of it drying does not matter, being accounted for. Sure, they are cheaper. But they are not the same thing as the pre-dried beams. Each is cost-optimal for their own use cases.


*) I am writing this from where the average income is 1/2 the one in the US and the disposable one even less than that. So this is no "Richman's Perspective" like some seem to presume.

**) A basic cone cyclone separator geometry is a well-known thing. No need to invent anything. The CT-VA, on the other hand, uses a pretty complex flow design to allow it being compact but still get good separation rates. One cannot build such a thing without some serious flow simulation R&D work.

 

[xedos]

For those of you that don't know -or- forgot - The Long Life Bag  IS NOT designed for "dust collection".

It was designed to handle chips, strings that would come off of say, a planer.  That fact would explain why your pleated filter is/was dirty.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

Having worked with a lot of Oak over the years I would put this down to an Oak problem.
Oak loves to get really hot and smoke during routing, at least for me.

Having been through literally tons of oak during 32 years on the tools as a pro, one thing I learned very, very early is that if you try and cut it using blunt sawblades or router bits, it will get hot. Very hot. You’ll see and smell the cut burning and you’ll also see smoke a lot of the time. I’d guess that this was 99% likely to be the source of the fire. Folks don't realise just how dangerous blunt blades and cutters are.

 

[Birdhunter]

I had a small fire in the debris box under my router table. Doused it with my water bottle. Bought a large capacity fire extinguisher the next day. Scary.

 

[NiteWalkerGR]

But it would be good if folks stopped pretending DD is some great value compared to the CT-VA. It is not. It is a low-end product made of cheap materials with minimum to no R&D effort **) and no integration in the design whatsoever. As that, it is reasonably priced. The same way the CT-VA is reasonably priced for what it provides. As a whole product.

This is the same way that buying raw construction lumber is a "better value" when you need it for a roof design where the twisting of it drying does not matter, being accounted for. Sure, they are cheaper. But they are not the same thing as the pre-dried beams. Each is cost-optimal for their own use cases.

The DD is absolutely a good value compared to the CT VA, and I say that as a huge fan of both. Calling the DD a "low end product made of cheap materials with little to no R&D" is incredibly disrespectful to a company who really is the pioneer of home shop dust separation. Both have their place. I like the CT VA because it fits perfectly into my ct midi I setup and still allows for some systainer storage on top of it. In my workshop I use a dewalt vac and DD 2.5 in a fixed location setup, so the compactness and integration in the festool system is not necessary. Even when I upgrade my workshop vac to a CT 26, I plan on getting the DD designed for festool vacs, mainly because of the better efficiency, and again the lack of need for it to be compact or integrate into the festool system as well as the CT VA does. The CT VA is not as efficient at separation as a dust deputy. Arbitrary numbers, but if the DD gets 95% of dust before it hits the bag, the CT VA gets about 85%.

So again, both have their place. No need to be condescending towards one to justify your own purchase.