This does not only happen to other people / CTL / FIRE

[ChuckM]

I'm least surprised by what Mino said about the DD. After all , he is the same fellow who said -- without first checking the fact -- that the CT26 was a quieter machine than the CT Midi, while in fact, their official dB specs are pretty much identical. I tend to attribute his sometimes incorrect or overzealous statements to misspeaking or lapse of memory.

 

[luvmytoolz]

Yeah I've gotta call BS on the statement the DD is a low end product made of cheap materials. I've had 3 in use on all my machines for some years now, and they are an absolutely sensational product, that is not only a fraction of the cost of the CT-VA, but also outperforms it, as well as most other standard cyclone or thien baffle units.

They are so effective that the CT36 hooked up to my CNC machine has had its bag emptied ONCE in the 10 or so years I've had it!

The huge tank its on has been emptied MANY dozens of times however.

The only thing I would agree that was junk about the DD was the use of plastic drums, which you had to double up because it would buckle under vacuum pressure, but in that case as the system is so cheap you use a metal drum instead ideally. Which is only a little extra effort, and still costs bugger all.

 

[ChuckM]

I have never replaced one single bag where the shop vac or CT is used with a DD. The drums I use are oil pails/containers that restaurants throw away as garage -- just ask where you dine, and you can get half a dozen for free.

 

[mino]

...
Calling the DD a "low end product made of cheap materials with little to no R&D" is incredibly disrespectful to a company who really is the pioneer of home shop dust separation.

Thanks, you actually made the key point here.

What Oneida deserves credit for is introducing the cyclone concept to the home/small shop maket. NOT for some fancy R&D, NOT for using superior materials. They deserve their cred specifically for NOT OVER-ENGINEERING and instead scaling the long-known industrial separator design into an as-cheap-as-possible single-piece plastic extrusion. No integration, no anti-static capability, nothing. Just the bare minimum for functionality. And thus a very good entry price. They key part of the equation.

------------------
To the chorus of the Oneida "followers" which seem to show up on every cyclone topic lately:

Sorry, folks did you even bother to check what the DD cyclone is made from ??

Are the DDs made from cheap materials?
  Yes. Definitely!

Are they a simple design - the concept and geometry known and used for a century or so - ?
  Absolutely!

Are they a good product, considering above?
  Absolutely as well!

Does Oneida deserve the mindshare they got (in the US) ?
  Absolutely! They introduced a long-only-industrial tech into the small/home shop market. They deserve their street cred for that.

But does all above make the DDs a universally *) great value compared to the CT-VA.
  No way. Not even close!

You are comparing two different products. Like a Cucumber versus a Cucurbita. Both can be used for a salad.

One is a bulky thing stitched together with minimum R&D, does not integrate with anything and does not (natively) provide conductive interface for anti-static hose usage.
And it costs in the $150 neigborhood. A fair price, all things considered.**)

It is the cheap & cheerful option. Nothing bad about, but nothing worship-worthy either.

The other is as-small-as-physically-possible, integrated with their Systainer and vacs system, is fully anti-static, includes an integrated removable bins concept for end-end usage.
Ant it costs in the $400 neighbourghood.  A fair price, all things considered.

It is the expensive (mobile) pro option. Nothing bad about, but nothing worship-worthy either.

----------
*) Universal as in the wide-sweeping statements made by some Oneida "followers" which read as is if the Holy water itself was being discussed.
**) Oneida likely gets 50% + gross margin on them, and that is absolutely deserved!
***) Festool likely gets 50% + gross margin on it, and that is absolutely deserved as well!

 

[ChuckM]

"To the chorus of the Oneida "followers" which seem to show up on every cyclone topic lately:"

Guilty as charged!

I've just ordered a Dust Deputy 2.5 (which is anti-static), but. like the Original DD that I have, I don't need its anti-static feature. Even though it's an option, I'm not changing the "non-anti-static" hose on my CT15 either. Static has never been an issue in my shop; it's from time to time in the house during our cold winter as many areas are carpeted.

I'm hoping that the DD 2.5 will bring even a higher performance, even though I'm very happy with the Original whether with the use of a shop vac (or previously of a CT26). I'll share my $70 US experiment when the new DD gets here in the new year. (For the record, I sold the CT26 with its original bag, and I asked the buyer to check how empty it was. He, a contractor, chose not to bother.)

[attachimg=1]

 

[luvmytoolz]

This is my DD which is so old I can't actually remember when I got it, sitting on a cut up 200L gas bottle, as the CNC generates so much dust and waste, anything smaller is just pointless.

It performs amazingly well, the value and usefulness is just astounding.

If and when the CT-VA comes down to something approaching a more realistic price given the lack of performance compared to the DD, I'd be happy to buy one just for the convenience factor when doing off site jobs. For solely using in the workshop however, it makes no sense to me compared to the DD.

 

[NiteWalkerGR]

I've just ordered a Dust Deputy 2.5 (which is anti-static),

I did not know this and I've had the 2.5 since it came out. [embarassed]
That's great news though.

 

[lousse]

Thanks all for your reply,

I wasn’t aware the longlife bag wasn’t supposed to be used for routing, sanding, thanks for the info!

I’m gonna give the cyclone a try and buy me a few new bits

Thanks again

 

[Michael Kellough]

I've just ordered a Dust Deputy 2.5 (which is anti-static),

I did not know this and I've had the 2.5 since it came out. [embarassed]
That's great news though.

How well do the Festool hoses fit the 2.5’s ports? I’m tempted to get one to replace my original DD just because it’s always bugged me that the working hose has to fit over the intake port on the DD and every time the hose is removed dust falls.

Every port upstream from the source of the dust should be larger than the port that delivers the dust.

 

[NiteWalkerGR]

How well do the Festool hoses fit the 2.5’s ports? I’m tempted to get one to replace my original DD just because it’s always bugged me that the working hose has to fit over the intake port on the DD and every time the hose is removed dust falls.

Every port upstream from the source of the dust should be larger than the port that delivers the dust.

Both ports on the 2.5 DD are 2 1/4" I.D. so the hoses fit inside.

 

[alltracman78]

...
Calling the DD a "low end product made of cheap materials with little to no R&D" is incredibly disrespectful to a company who really is the pioneer of home shop dust separation.

Thanks, you actually made the key point here.

What Oneida deserves credit for is introducing the cyclone concept to the home/small shop maket. NOT for some fancy R&D, NOT for using superior materials. They deserve their cred specifically for NOT OVER-ENGINEERING and instead scaling the long-known industrial separator design into an as-cheap-as-possible single-piece plastic extrusion. No integration, no anti-static capability, nothing. Just the bare minimum for functionality. And thus a very good entry price. They key part of the equation.

I'm going to respectfully, but forcefully, disagree here.

First, there is an integrated version for Festool. As well as multiple sizes and "options" for wall and bucket mounting. So while there is just the basic cyclone available, there are multiple different kits for various uses. Not as specifically integrated as the Festool cyclone (even the Festool specific kit), but much more than just a cyclone with a flange on the bottom. And much more flexible for various uses vs the Festool specific cyclone. Not to mention that other than Festool there are very few (if any?) setups that are designed as a modular system, so there really is nothing to integrate into. They have to be flexible. Vs the Festool, which is really only good with the Festool system. And while it may integrate better than the Oneida Festool version, it doesn't work as well.

Second, the DD is anti static, according to Oneida. All sizes. So as long as you're using Festool anti static hoses you should be fine.
*I was curious about this so I did a little more looking around. Apparently only the black anti static DD is made from static conductive material (like the Festool hoses are), the rest (white) only have "anti static components". So if you want/need anti static you can either get the black DD (which also comes with the Festool specific kit) or you can use a wire to connect the inlet and outlet hoses, assuming they're both anti static.*

Third, while the DD may not be over-engineered materials wise, it's not simply a scaled down cyclone.
Oneida has at least 2 patents for the DD. One patent for their bucket top design, which is supposed to aid in separation. I'm not an engineer, so I can't say how much, if any, is hype, but I would think there would be at least some merit to it, otherwise the patent would have been denied. And a second patent for their specific cyclone design. Which says they did their own engineering and R&D and didn't do just the bare minimum. You can't simply resize something and get a patent for it (outside of possibly some very specific circumstances). And as far as I know Oneida doesn't have a patent on the dust separating cyclone overall, but on the specific design of one.
There are a whole bunch of different non Oneida cyclones available. I have 2 cheap knock off ones I bought several years ago before I (re)learned the lesson of you get what you pay for. Other than those I haven't tried any others, but the Oneida ones are supposed to be better from everything I've read and seen. The Chinese ones I have are definitely bare minimum, no question there. So if we have multiple different designs of dust separating cyclones and one is better than all the rest one would think it had some effort put into it.

 

[alltracman78]

Since there are questions about the DD port sizes, here are some pictures for reference. I've had the smaller DD for a couple of years with minimal use (I used to cut outside as much as possible), but in the interest of time and work flow I've moved inside and got a Festool CT48 so I just picked up the larger DD (DD 2.5) for my shop vac and I'm going to try the smaller one on the Festool because it has smaller hoses. Maybe I'll end up switching around in the future, don't know.

The DD 2.5 doesn't come with the elbow on top, just a female port. So just a female outlet port, and a male (or female if your fitting fits inside) inlet port. The elbow came with the smaller DD when I got the kit. 2 elbows, 2 buckets, 1 top, 1hose, cyclone, gasket, plus some other stuff.
The smaller DD inlet and outlet are both male or female.
The DD 2.5 kit I just got came with the cyclone, gasket, 1 top, 1 hose, and hardware. I would have got just the cyclone, but I wanted the second bucket top because it's sturdier than regular buckets, already has the mounting set up, plus the baffles that supposedly help in separation.
Both DDs have an identical bottom flange. DD 2.5 is taller with larger ports.

The DD 2.5 has the same size inlet and outlet. A Shop Vac brand 2.25? hose outlet fits securely into it (the end that goes into the vacuum is slightly too small, I used a Shop Vac brand outlet on both ends of my hose). So does the 36mm Festool hose inlet (the vacuum end). As does the larger end of the elbow that came with the smaller DD kit.

The smaller DD also has the same size inlet and outlet, but they are smaller than the DD 2.5. The Shop Vac brand outlet does NOT fit OVER (or into) the inlet or outlet. The Shop Vac brand hose itself with no fitting attached will fit over the inlet or outlet. The Festool 36mm end also doesn't fit over or into either port. But the 32? mm end does fit inside the inlet and outlet, without the tool adapter fitting that came with it. The larger end of the elbow(s) that came in the kit fits over the inlet or outlet, while the smaller end of the elbow is the exact same size as the outlet itself. If that makes sense?

The Festool hose I have came with the CT48 AC and is the 36/32.

 

[Mike Goetzke]

Just another reminder. I've been a serious hobbyist for many years. Couple days ago I experienced my first possible fire at the router table. I was cutting some stopped rabbets and during setup I usually don't have the dust collector on. All of the sudden I saw a small pile of chips between the router fences smoking. I pulled them out as quickly as I could and they were glowing bright orange on the cement floor.

The bit needs sharpening but was wondering would it have been better to have my big DC on or off?

 

[squall_line]

In my amateur opinion, the DC would have pulled dust out of the cut and prevented it from building up to the point where friction would have ignited it.  The airflow should also have kept the bit and workpiece cooler. 

That is, the accumulated heat in the dust that was piling up is likely what caused the embers to form, not necessarily that you were creating embers directly from the workpiece. 

I am not a fire expert, though, so I may be totally off.